Selling a race in the CE? Sketchy.

Letting people upgrade to the CE after buying a standard edition? Normal.

That doesn't make it a cash shop. It just makes it a poor decision.

Play some Neverwinter to reacquaint yourself to a cash shop. (Eg. treasure chest drops that require real cash purchased keys to open.)

Y'all need to get some perspective. before you go quoting what firor or sage said, understand the context of what they were talking ABOUT.

It's not Matt Firor or any other on the devs team calling the shots, I can guarantee it. It's the suits who want's more of our money. And those are the ones who will override what ever Matt Firor says in the future aswell.
If you haven't seen the ShoddyCast latest video, I suggest you do, it's a really good representation of why people are upset:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lRi-aku1nw&list=UU7mFkx1Um4KJZKkUHsSV1uA&feature=c4-overview

4.6k likes, 287 dislikes... says something about the majority of us consumers...

This has been obvious from the first minute.

If i was a DEV i would be quite pissed. Possibly more than the players.

We need to get real and put things in perspective.

The "pure" pay to play model where you paid a sub and had it all is gone.

Now - on top of the sub - we can either pay for silly stuff like name changes, vanity slots, minions, small xp buffs (pay for commodities/wow model).

Or we can pay for serious stuff: weapons, quests, new areas, gold (pay to win/age of wushu model).

And as i already said i will support anything that keeps the game away from the latter model.

Now the problem is that most see imperials as "content". And its hard to disagree. But its not content that gives you an advantage.

Imperials arent any better than Orcs or Redguards.

They dont unlock new areas.

They cant craft stuff that is not also available to every other race.

Their horse is white but not faster than my grey donkey.

So while i see the move is shady and the area is grey... the sky isnt falling yet.

Same here. It makes him look like a complete tool! Hence why I highlightning it.

You're not even making sense anymore. A guy selling bread can chop it up however he wants to. You think you have any right to set his prices for him? That's rubbish.

Go to a butcher and tell him that since you paid for steaks, you should get the whole cow.
Go to a car dealership and tell the salesman he has no right to charge extra for air conditioning.
Build a house and try telling your building contractor he has no right to charge you extra to build an attached garage.
Try telling your cable company that you should pay the same monthly fee to access 100 channels that you pay to access 10.
Try telling your mechanic that an oil change should cost the same as a complete engine overhaul.

Nothing works this way in real life. This is just more hyperbole from your side of the argument. We're talking about video games, but you're comparing it to being denied access to a basic need, like food.

-Travail.

Imperials were never to be playable... They were the NPC baddies. The game was designed around this. There is no imperial faction storyline to level through.


Let me repeat that as it's important to understand.

THERE IS NO IMPERIAL FACTION STORYLINE TO LEVEL THROUGH.

so, to use your bread anology in proper context,

Everyone is getting the WHOLE loaf of bread (top and all)
But the CE also gets an 'imperial cookie'. A nice treat not needed to make your sandwich but hey... If you want a cookie too, later on? Omg paywall cash shop end of the world.
#gamewillfail #lyingdevs

Well i hope they are at least going to take the effort to make a storyline for them

Lmao, they can't win. Now they're just being lazy ;-P

They mentioned something about playable imperials being.. rogues?

I think they have something in mind.

They could try something similar to the Death Knight starting story in WoW. But I think the Imperials will just start the same as the other races in their alliance.

I don't mind if it's like WoWs cash shop...it's all mounts and pets that I don't care for, I collect the ones in the game instead. There hasn't even been a cool looking mount IMO in the store except for the bat mount and I had to have it...it was the first item I ever bought from the store. If it's like WoWs shop purely cosmetic I'll be happy. If it's a shop like...let's say SWTOR, I will be upset.

Zenimax said purely cosmetic so that's ok with me.

Yeah, honestly... that stuff gets tricky. To be frank, looking in from the outside I see a lot (not necessarily all) of people on both sides of this particular fence spending a lot of time extrapolating and interpreting limited information to prop up the opinions they already had. As such, it's pretty much par for the course for every press release this company's made since I first came to this forum. There may be something to be said for clarifying elements and digging through what is and is not incorrect facts, but I'm not going to be the arbiter of that. As someone who's read maybe an article about this game, I don't think anyone would want me picking through posts from people who've done a lot more research on the matter than I'm going to be willing to.

From a moderation standpoint it's all the same to me, and it's not against forum rules to misinterpret given information (though obviously willingly doing so to stir up trouble would be another matter.) People can come to different conclusions from the same data all day long so far as I'm concerned, so long as they don't decide to get angry about those differences and can conduct it in a reasonable manner. It's not my position to decide who is "right" in these matters, though. If Bethesda or Zenimax want to clear something up, that's their prerogative and I don't really have any input on any of that side of things.

The only reason for it being gone is because people accept it to be so, which is why I'm getting really frustrated with people defending all of this because it allows it to set a new norm in the gaming industry, and it will only continue untill people stand up and say enough is enough. I'm taking a stand by not buying the CE even though I really want the option to play as an Imperial. I don't blame people who do, but I do blame people who try to defend it this kind of marketing scheme.
I've been playing computers games, almost on a daily basis, for the past 20-25 years. I've been playing online for 18 out of those 20-25 years. My first MMO was WoW and I played from day one untill untill 2? years ago. I've watched how the online community has changed through out the years, how people first reacted to the news of being able to buy something silly as the Celestial Steed (which btw brought $2 millions to Blizzard in 4 hours at it's peak!), how that all of a sudden was Ok.
Then how people reacted to buying pets and vanity items, and then that was the new norm and considered Ok.
How people reacted to p2w in Diablo 3 with the real money auction house, and then that was Ok.
It's not about only MMO's introducing these payment models, they think longterm investments. If they can make the consumers Ok with a new step, a new payment model on top of the existing one, without tresspassing too much, then within a few years you have all of the above in the same game. The only thing missing in TESO's formula to make it true, is to include actual items in the cash shop to make it p2w (the rings of mara is debateble and so is the treasure maps).

Exactly, most people see a race as content. It wasn't even a question whether or not it was considered content before this announcement.
Imperials doesn't have to be better, no more than that a specific zone has to be better for leveling, grinding or farming yet That isn't considered Ok to be locked behind a paywall. But they Will exceed other classes in specific areas, otherwise it would be a completely useless class unless it's played only for stuff like RP.
No, they don't unlock new areas, but they do unlock a Unique (very important) class skill line.
And the rest I don't even think anybody really cares about to argue because we all agree that the color of the mount doesn't matter, which is why there's been no massive outcry regarding them introducing the cash shop for cosmetic changes.

And you're correct, the sky isn't falling.. not yet.. but in my book they are on a really short leash and I know plenty of others that thinks the same and the game isn't even released yet.

And btw, since I posted you the ShoddyCast video earlier I might aswell link the Force Stategy Gaming one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G4CFCU0fWM
7.9k likes, 410 dislikes.

TLDR you are still going to buy the game.

But complaining that this will never stop until people say enough is enough.

I will let you wonder why it will never stop.

Come on, read it!!!

I'm not supporting anything but the actual game and the subscription fee.. always have, always will.

Yes the trend is milking players in every possible way.

Nobody really likes it except them.

The only solution is to stop paying once you are not satisfied by the service anymore. Once you think thats enough!

There is no other solution. They dont read the forum. If they do, its for a good laugh.

They only understand NUMBERS of copies sold and subscribers.

The likes on the net? Who cares... especially because its always drama before every MMO release. This is standard.

Yet you will buy the game... and im happy i wouldnt want you to do otherwise.

But do you see my point?

But this cant come to a conclusion we arent even disagreeing entirely we just see the same issue from a different point of view.

Personally i stopped expecting anything good from big companies long ago. This deal is fair enough for me (never really liked imperials) and i am willing to pay.

If i wasnt satisfied i would be looking for Wildstar or Camelot Unchained instead of raging at Zenimax.

FFXIV svcked. You know what i did? Got the [censored] out didnt even try complaining on the forum, a waste of time.

Stores are the way games are nowadays unfortunately. Only option is to play or not play. I personally don't care what goes in the store as long as I have fun playing and feel I am getting value for my subscription dollar. If I don't have fun or think it costs more than it's worth - then I will go do something else - simple.

I think I see your point, but I don't see it as black and white regarding playing/not playing the game. Atleast getting the game but avoiding the CE/Cash shop will give them (along with others) a nudge at where the problem lies.

I don't trust big companies either. But if they say one thing then I expect them to keep their word. Like I've said before, their only defense is ambiguity in order to give the benefit of the doubt that they are still trustworthy and "only" want what's best for the consumer

They can't keep their word and stay in business. Situations change and so must their response. They say today 'we will not go F2P' - if the game tanks then they would have to change their mind about that wouldn't they?

Obviously. But that's why the constant dialogue has to be there with their fans and their consumers, that's what the announcements are for.
But they didn't this time, it came completely unannounced. And I think I covered that earlier, so you quoting me on that part is taking things out of context

it's just the usual paranoia that comes with people being asked to spend money for goods and services.

I don't think it is out of context, the CE etc. etc. are all 'announced' and are all part of the ongoing dialogue.

I'm guessing it's just vanity stuff like unique mounts (Hopefully none of them are Shadowmere). However I have my fears that after a couple of months it will change over to a cash shop due to low numbers.

It'd be a cash shop if it sold anything period.

That's sort of what they're meant to do.