I posted this in Community Discussion without realizing this thead existed, but here it is again:

Story and depth.

The first aspect that needs improvement is the plot. Oblivion's story felt to much like a hollywood popcorn flick to me. Some demigod of a hero, jack of all trades and master of them as well would save the world from some evil force. It's been done a thousand times, and while it's not bad a bad premise, I would like to see something a bit more original in an eventual TES V. And while we're on the story, the players actons need to have a real impact on it. Oblivion was an action game, and to me, there wasn't to much room for actual roleplaying in it. I mean yes, if you sue your imagination you will be able to roleplay in the game, but it won't matter. The game will be the same it was the last time you played. The reason is that the choices you make don't matter in the grand scheme of things. This is an area where I felt Oblivion was sorely lacking. Choices are completely meaningless if they don't have consequences. They don't need to be immediatly noticeable, but they need to be there. Fallout 3 was a step in the right direction though.

Secondly, depth. One thing that bothered me in Fallout 3 was how two dimensional the companions were. The companions were obviously a major aspect of the game, but apart from having different personalities and abilities, we didn't get to know them at all. Sure, it wouldn't be natural for my player and a companion like Jericho to be best friends, but after risking our lives together for a long time, a certain mutual respect or friendship depending on the kind of character you're playing is to be expected. The companions were so udnerdeveloped, but they had the potential to be so much more interesting. Some backstory, maybe meeting someone they know from their own past adventures and things like that would make them a lot more than a one-liner spouting meatshield. If they were well developed I think companions could really add to the experience in a TES game. Anyone who knows what games I enjoy aren't going to be surprised when i recommend looking at Bioware in this aspect. Kotor, Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights. They all have companions that you gradually get to know and care for. And here we get to one of my main complaints with Oblivion.

I didn't care what happened to a single NPC in Oblivion. In Fallout I did get somewhat more attacked to certain characters, but not by much. In fact, the only NPC's I really felt anything for were the merchants, as they took care of all that heavy loot for me.

Choices and Consequences.

This is the main thing that put me off with Oblivion in particular. For a choice to have any meaning, they need to have consequences. They don't have to be immediatly noticeable or have a major impact. But they need to be there, and they need to affect something. Falout 3 did better in this respect, Megaton was excellent, though it really didn't feel like it had much of an impact beyond losing some merchants and that one cow. Hell, the main merchant in the town even survived, so nothing really changed. Megaton blowing up was more of an inconvenience than the major event it should've been. Megaton is one of the main trade hubs of the Capital wasteland, and you'd think people would react more to it's destruction that simply mentioning it casually in conversation.

The point I'm trying to make is. When chocies don't have any impact, there's no reason to make them. How I complete a quest doesn't really matter when the end result remains the same.

Customization

To me, this is the most important aspect of an RPG by far. And having a lot of choices when creating your character is for me, personally, a delight. I love creating characters and deciding how they should look, how their hair looks, what they wear etc. Oblivion did this fine, though most characters looked hideous without some cosmetic mods. Fallout 3 was a lot better, but not perfect. I liked how facial hair was possible, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be in Oblivion. Facial hair is an obvious choice for customizing a male character. Another thing I would like to see is being able to customize your characters body. It doesn't make sense for everyone in the world to be bodybuilders. A mage should not have the same physique as a warrior. Being able to adjust your characters height, weight and bodyshape would go a long way in terms of character customization. Saints Row 2 did it very well, and has one of the best character creators to date.

Armor is also a point here. In Morrowind, you had numerous armor slots so you could mix and match armor pieces to get the look you wanted. In oblivion this was gone, and I see no reason for it to be removed, unless the goal was to make characters look more bland and mass produced. If you could do it in Morrowind, then surely you can do it now as well.

Gameplay

Before Oblivionw as released we were promised an extremely advanced combat system and proper Radiant AI. We didn't get either of them. The combat was basically button mashing with an occasonal right click to block. And the AI was dumbed down far to much.

I'll adress the combat first. The combat was far to simplistic in my opinion. Games like Jedi Academy that are far older and far less advanced technically still made sword combat far more advanced and far more fun. The combat in Oblivion was basically button mashing, and the lack of recoil and variation in the guns made Fallout 3 a bad FPS. Basically, the combat needs work, especially in games as action focused as Bethesda's. I've said that the games need more depth and story, but if the game's main focus is action then that's not a problm in itself. But in oblivion's case both the story and combat was lacking, and so the game didn't do reall well in either aspect. And it's obvious that if they had pulled of one aspect really well, then some weaknesses in the other part could be easily forgiven. But when both parts are just as simple and bland, then the end result is an average game, with unrealized potential for greatness.

Then the AI. I know the Radiant AI was dumbed down to prevent NPC's from killing each other off inside the town while you were out looting dungeons or helping Khajit children out of trees, but was it really necessary to make the adjustments so extreme? Yes, the NPC's had schedules, they ate, they slept and they did their jobs, but they still felt lifeless. If I chopped down some poor fellow in the street they would run away or fight me, but that was it. I also found it a bit odd that someone was willing to kill me over stealing a piece of bread, but then again, they did that in Morrowind to.

The problem with NPC's killing eachother is easily solvable. Guards in the city could confiscate weapons at the gate, or grab and restrain disorderly citizens. Who may or may not break free and fight back depending on various stats and conditions. Making all the NPC's robots is not the answer.

The mounts in the game were also incredibly clunky to control. And as seen in games like GUN, it's possible to make horses behave so much better. Some variation in mount types might also have been interesting, but may not have fit in to the setting to well.

Now this poitn has been long enough, I'm sure there's something I've forgotten to mention, but I'd like to see some discussion on this. We all want the enxt TES to be as good as it can be, and we know Bethesda are able to do it, so why not do our part and hope they take notice?

And I'm adding a quick list of some of the main things I'd like to see:

1. More customization. Hairstyles, Beards, Tattoos, Proper skin shading (oblivion's skin shading was awfull), piercings/earrings
2. More advanced combat, dual wielding would be very welcome. Jedi Academy, while an older game is a great example.
3. More variation in weapons and armor. Morrowinds armor system was perfect, and getting crossbows, throwing weapons and spears back would certainly be welcome. And having the spears behave as long swords is not good enough, you stab with a spear, you don't swing it around like a madman.
4. More character customization. Saints Row 2 had the percect character creator. Changing body shape, height and weight would go a long way towards getting some variation and making the player and NPC's feel more real.
5. Bent legs for the beast races!

What bugs me the most about Oblivion is that wherever you go, you meet happy and healthy citizens in clean, whole houses. Even the beggars look like they get their three meals a day. How many people during the dark ages had a perfect health? Noone in Oblivion cogh or snees, it's like an utopia free of disease and hunger, sure the beggars all claim to be sick and hungry, but if you look at them the only thing that makes them different is their unique voices that they only uses for greetings and thieves guild quests. More poverty and despair for increased realism please.

I would also like to see more gray zones. The only quest/storyline that wasn't black or white was the thieves guild quests, were your first mission was to "steal from the rich and give to the poor". And with more gray zones I would also like to see more choices, which more or less goes hand in hand, choices that doesn't have any choice that's right. These choices should of course have consequences in the game, like someone said above, choices and consequences.

In all honesty... they should make a game similar to TES but set in a more Japanese environment... Stupid idea, but it seems like it would be pretty cool.

Anyway, back to TES. I'd have to agree with Urge, it seems as though your TES games are getting worse as you go along. I would also like to see the old weapons come back, with a few new ones. For example, scythes. Can you imagine someone running around with a deadric scythe?! THAT WOULD BE BAD!! Spears need to come back... and another thing I absolutely HATED about Oblivion is that EVERYTHING was level based. Armor, weapons, everything. In Morrowind, you could find artifacts lying around as well as deadric claymores stuck in rocks and what not. However, in order to get those weapons, you had to work for them. I know that I could not kill the guy in Dren's estate with the deadric Dai-katana until I was strong enough. It didn't mean it wasn't there. It was the same with the Ice Blade of the Monarch, I had to work to get it.

The quests, they need to be longer. Not "go do this and this and then you'll be promoted" crap, it should be a mission to get promoted just once in something like, let's say, the Fighter's Guild. What should've been done in Oblivion with the Fighter's Guild is that you should've had to do quite a few quests in ALL of the cities with a few trips to Fighter's Guild headquarters in Corrol.

Something else that needs to be implemented in TES is the choice to wear robes over or under your armor, as well as having capes and sashes.

this is the last thing I will say for now; the spells need to interact with each other, ice needs to put out fire, etc. etc.

I was actually satisfied with Oblivions AI. They had their schedules and everything and occasionally went out and did other things but i want to see the people have UNIQUE lives. Merchants should run out of goods sooner or later and have to contact a bigger city to buy them, or a warehouse somewhere. Alchemists should MAKE their potions and sell them, not just have a huge supply of them. There should be actual thieves that stalk around and steal. Just more logical things, i know this would take ALOT of effort into the game but i would LOVE it.

Consequences also, People should react to things you do, if you get food and drink from a particular inn alot then the inn keeper should start to recognize you and greet you as an acquaintance. There should ALWAYS be 2 sides to the story, such as: A guard captain asks you to go undercover and retrieve a stolen food supply, you bust the guy who stole it and the middle-class and wealthy people prasie you, but the people in the slums give you a nasty look as you walk by becasue the food was stolen by a member of the Thieves Guild and he was supplying the poor.

Ok, you have to be kidding me! First I would not buy the game, second I would be immensely angry and probably have to go to a psychologist to deal with the metal stress. I'd be damn sad something like 3-4 years waiting, suggesting and talking for a game I thought would be awesome and was a major let down.

The problem with NPCs being like robots could be partly alleviated by having some other means to interact with them. Outside of scripted quests, you essentially can't interact with NPCs in a meaningful way - you can steal from them, kill them or receive some irrelevant information. Yes, there is the disposition/persuasion feature, but there is really little purpose to it unless it's part of a quest or you're bartering. Indeed it just seems like a tacked on feature - a character in a quest will say "I don't trust you enough to tell you that" and you'll hoodwink them into liking you before you can progress. Disposition when used in this way is more of a minor obstacle in a quest than anything truly meaningful.

There are, however, limitless ways that it would be possible to interact with NPCs which would rely on universal mechanisms that can be applied to any character. For instance, you could create your own groups/associations - your own mini guilds if you like - with characters who can be recruited. When an NPC's disposition is high enough you can recruit them to your group. You can train their attributes for a particular task (say... security and sneak so they can steal for you) and then set missions for them (steal a particular item, kill a particular NPC, look for a particular type of item, accompany the character on a quest, etc.) Depending on the NPC's skill level and luck they might be successful in the assigned task or not.

Thats far too much too expect out of devs. If we have a questline more than 2 quests...

I'm into meaningful interaction with NPCs that doesn't require my "imagination", but the whole "make a guild thing" seems quite lame, in my mind.

i think in previous posts ive been saying make non story driven jobs things with NPCs like in Fallout, and story driven quests with regular NPCs. Doesnt make much sense. wht i mean will be hopefully explained through this ex. For assasins faction, you can pick up a contract where its like go kill this guy, heres his name and region. The guy you have to kill is like the NPCs in fallout where they wont even talk to you. Then there would be a story driven quest where theres a cool way to take out your target, and everything is thought through much more. Does tht make sense.
Then with the NPCs who you cant even talk to, they could be used to fill in the city a bit more, so the devs could make a more life like city. In saying tht though i dont want Mass Effect in tamriel, but i def. think those sorts of NPCs could be used in pointless guild tasks. Maybs with requirements coming back it could be like have x skills at this lvl, this many jobs done, and this far into balmora FG questline. Something like tht. :hubbahubba: thoughts on this anyone.

Oblivions NPCs were mostly just all generic, they had rumors and a quest topic, ooo, aww... I would be fine with a bunch of npcs with random names, that served as generic npcs, but the specially-named npcs that are just generic with a special name is... dumb...

Opposite here. When playing Fallout 3, I was somewhat angry that I couldn't actually enter conversation with those generic Megaton citizens. I would have rather they had one basic rumors or location topic, and could be talked to, rather than them being a nameless generic. After all, I want to talk to people and ask them their names. Seems like a reasonable thing to do, doesn't it?

Yeah, if we're going to have generic NPCs, then I'd much rather them do the courtesy of giving those NPCs generic conversation topics a la Morrowind, rather than making them completely noninteractive.

No, for me EVERY Npc must have it's own name and be unique. However it is my opinion that you shouldn't magically know everyones name by walking into a foreign/allien town, You should have to talk to people, let them introduce themselves and find out info rather than being omniscient.

The problem is how to make them unique ?

Daggerfall had way too many NPC and you could interact with everyone, but in the end, they were completely undistinguishable from each others (except for the VIP of High Rock)

IF a NPC has nothing to tell you except rumours I can hear everywhere and some generic crap, I don't care if they are non interactive.
Sure, it's not good in terms of immersion / roleplay, but at least, I know it would be a waste of time to try talking to him.

I was thinking about the reputation/alignment system.
TES games use the common one-dimensional alignment system of good <-- > (neutral) <--> evil, which is, I think, insufficient for a game that prides for its large and complicated gameworld.

That kind of system has several limitations:
Obviously with an one-dimensional system you can create an one-dimensional character, good/evil, very good/evil, slightly good/evil etc.
Neutral is someone who is sometimes good and sometimes evil, which is completely unfitting I believe.

For example consider Robin Hood:
He stole from the rich -an act considered evil in RPGs- and gave what he stole to the poor -a good act-
So if I was to play a Robin Hood kind of character, the game would consider me neutral...
But for me a neutral character is someone that doesn't like getting involved too much - either flowing with the current or standing back and letting things happen.
Yet Robin Hood was nothing like that...
A two-dimensional system, like the one used in Dungeons & Dragons, is considerably better, yet it still divides behaviors into uncomfortable categories while it has one limitation that keeps bugging me: it doesn't distinguish between actions and motivations.
In such a system Robin Hood would be considered Chaotic Good I suppose. But that also seems inappropriate.
If his chaotic actions derive from his desire to overthrow an unlawful ruler while remaining completely loyal to his missing king (ie if he was fighting to establish 'better' law instead of fighting to bring chaos) could he really be considered chaotic?
So even though his alignment could be hard to fit into a predefined category, there some things that we can be certain for...
such as: a)he was known as a thief and b)he was known as a philanthropist.

So what I'd like to propose is a system that will not depend on a single good<-->evil reputation but rather a system that will include a variety of several different and independent possible reputations.

So for example, if you keep stealing a lot, you don't become evil, you simply become a 'known thief'
If you murder people, you become a murderer, if you donate money, people start recognizing you as a philanthropist etc.
A 'fame' counter could also be included to define how many people have heard about you and how much they have heard.
So if you just steal a little every now and then you would get a reputation as someone who may possibly be an occasional thief, while if you steal in every chance you get then you become a notorious thief and people hide their purses when they see you, avoid you and don't want you hanging around in their houses and stores.
+ If you stop stealing at some point then you might become known as a repented thief, and people might or might not still view you as a thief, depending or how trusting they are.

That could present huge opportunities for more complex interactions with npcs, who will react to you according to their own values.
For example, a common thief will respect you, or even admire you or idolize you if you are a notorious thief, but he might shun you if you are a known philanthropist as well.
On the other hand, the leader of the thieves guild might respect you more if you are a philanthropist, but he will abhor you if you are a known murderer.
The leader of the Dark Brotherhood will like you if you are a murderer and he wont care at all if you are also a thief.
etc... you get the idea.

To expand on that we could also introduce rumors.
When you are too well known as a thief for example, fearful people might start spreading the unsubstantiated rumor that you kill your victims in their sleep, which would lead in you being perceived as a murderer.
There could be ways (or even quests) to combat such rumors, and they may even simply fade out as you become more famous.
Another example could be, if you are a known thief and join the thieves guild then, as a good extra benefit for being a member, the guild may start a rumor that you are actually wrongfully perceived as a thief, which could cause people to become more trusting of you, and thus easier targets, and the guards to pester you less.

The fame/infamy system could be expanded quite easily to improve it's effects drastically. I wrote this as a suggestion for a Fallout 3 mod project, but it goes equally well here, if not more so.

In addition the the know thief, murderer and similar titles mentioned earlier. Fame and Infamy would also affect what NPC's are willing to do for you or against you, and how they generally react to your presence.

For example, a very infamous character who is well know for stealing and murdering when someone gets in the way, is much more likely to get away with theft, as most people would be to scared to oppose him. On the flipside though, guards would be more vary of him, they may not let him into the town at all, forcing him to find an alternate route, or talking his way in. To expand on this example: If a well know murderer tried to rob a bank you were in, how many of you can honestly say you'd rush up and try to beat him to death?

On the other hand, a character who is well known for doing good deeds and helping people will generally be well recived in town, and people may even look the other way if he commits some minor crime, though their opinion of you may be swayed when they witness such an act. Guards would give you some space, and wouldn't hesitate to come to your aid if you end up in a fight.

Now that I think of it, a system based solely on Fame and Infamy may not be the best, but it works. For examples, you wouldn't need to do good deeds to gain fame. Simply doing something noteworthy would make you famous, but how you do it would determine if you get infamy points or not.

guys i really like reading this thread but all-in-all i think it useless because the devs dont read this they just the let people "let their steam out" because if you have read from the begining of this thread uptill now you will find many conflicting thoughts and the devs will make the game just the way THEY think is right be it dumbing it down even more or making like baldurs gate all you guys do is play then w8 for the next game.

It would help tons if there was more character-body configuration allowing for NPC's to be a wider range of shapes and sizes to be more distinguishable. Trust it's a MASSIVE differentce.

A "guild" is just another word for a circle of associates in this context. That's a pretty standard part of human interaction which doesn't really have any parallel in the likes of Oblivion - the only "associates" you have are part of the handful of guilds built into the game.

Brah, Devs look in this thread quite often. I've seen them many times myself. They look at it; they have seen our ideas.

If you think it's so useless, then why'd you feel the need to post that in here? If you don't like the thread, you don't have to read it.

Also: Bolas, plz.

And large-scale feedback from Morrowind facilitated most of the change that took place in Oblivion. We can argue whether the change was good or done correctly, but the change itself is irrefutable. They listen. There's no way they're going to implement half or even 10% of these ideas, and they're certainly not going to pull ideas verbatim. But I like to think of the Suggestions thread not only as an amazing way for us to propogate our specific honed ideas into the mass public feedback, but also as the muse for the devs if they choose to partake of it.

Or perhaps its all a lie, a complex system designed upon creating chaos...confusion... a system that has no mercy, no remorse. A system that wants your SOUL!!!!!!!!!!! bliviongate:


BUAHHAH

Either way, this thread needs to get back on-topic

How bout having an optional function (for pc users) to unpack all their BSA's. Whilst I understand you can already do this it would be more convenient to have them all done in the proper order or whatever etc etc...

I know it's not the best suggestion I just wanted to get the thread moving again...

I have to say I'd like that feature.

Thanks so it wasn't a wasted idea