I personally found this a failure at logic...

What if you are roleplaying a avatar of Akatosh or something? Contrary to what you may think it IS possible that someone just MIGHT become a Dark brotherhood agent, then leave that life and become the CoC and then want to better the guilds by becoming their masters. Yes, it would be ALOT of work, but it is very possible.

Besides, if this is a roleplaying game, choose which role you want to play, that is what bethesda has allowed. You COULD become the master of all guilds, or you COULD just become the Archmage. Either way, it's your choice, taking away that choice entirely would just be stupid, and unrealistic.

But that is kinda silly, having such high regaurds for yourself, it would not fit into role play as you could not be a master of all guilds in the same was you really can't in Oblivion.

Why? While I agree TES needs more consequences in the choices you make, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't be master of both guilds.

Because you can't be the true master of the Dark Brotherhood, for example and be the Knight Commander of the Knights of the Nine. You can in a way, but it's not to the same effect in terms of how you can play the game. Also, it's just silly and why can't we have rules which stop us. It would be the same in real life.

Because TES isn't real life? As I said before, you could have left that life of the DB or after you become a Knight commander you could become evil, either way, bethesda allows you to control your characters actions. If you want real life go outside and explore.

Authoritarian black-and-white barriers to joining multiple guilds is not a good thing. The only exceptions are guilds that are completely and utterly diametrically opposed, such as the three Great Houses of Morrowind: you join one, you garner a reputation and don't/can't join another one.

But for KotN and Dark Brotherhood... Well, it's a tough one because it depends on how you interpret the standards by which you are judged in the KotN faction quest-line. If you are judged by Aedric standards, then yeah, you're not going to be able to join the Brotherhood and the KotN at the same time. However, that clashes with the idea that Aedra don't interact readily with the world and don't communicate intent; that Aedra rely solely on mortal interpretation. And with that in mind, the guild's requirements would not be based on a unilateral Fame/Infamy rating (ick), but on a fragmented and able-to-be-deceived factional reputation meter. With the latter in mind, you could very well play one side for a fool (with some game-mechanics-related work) because you would be slipping the wool over the eyes of mortal arbiters, not divine ones.

However, ALL factions need to return to having skill requirements in some form (whether that be through numeric checks or actual skill demonstrations that are tightly controlled enough to eliminate all loopholes and serve the same effect as numeric checks), and factions should return to having impact and relationships with one another. Factions should like other factions and hate other factions, on a broad scale of dislike. And joining factions that don't like each other would require a lot more effort to become the master of both.

The jack-of-all-trades should be possible. It should just be difficult to properly earn and attain.

I don't see an absolute problem with a single character being able to master all of the Guilds, or of joining all of the various factions at one time or another. I DO see a problem with being able to advance in one while currently active in another, especially at a low level. If you're actively supporting more than one, your time, effort, and loyalty would need to be divided, often with a poorer or much slower result in both cases. Where there's a conflict, you should need to give up the one in order to join the other (or at least claim to do so, in order to join and undermine the second after enduring a period of suspicion).

Having someone totally untrained in the attributes and skills of that Guild rising to lead it (as in OB) is even more ridiculous.

Ideally, If a character spends enough time, he or she might theoretically be able to do "everything" in the game, and "master" all of the available skills, but I'd consider that an absolutely extreme case in a very long game, with a lot of obstacles and delays along the way. You still wouldn't be the "head" of all factions simultaneously, but might have lead all of them at various times over the course of an epic career.

But the whole point of laws in having to follow them. What's the point in trying to make a game with realisum if you just fool about?

Exactly! This would make the most sense, and still allow the character freedom to actually have a choice, instead of the age old game mechanic "You can't do that because someone said that no one would want do that"

It's not about that, it's about not being allowed to in most cases.

Have the imperial Legion be joinable again, but this time make it so yu can actually send orders to NPC's on battlefields once you become the Night-Errant or whatever the highest rank is.

Make all windows that are of suitable sizes additional possible entry points. Since when can't you pry open a shutter, or break glass?

*1. A lot of times in many game series strict adherence to lore and logic, fictional or otherwise, is not conducive to fun gameplay. A compromise between gameplay and logic has to be reached, and more often than not it's the logic that takes the hit. If a person had to choose, I'm positive that person would rather play the fun game rather than the logical one.

2. Well...your whole scenario of someone hacking and slashing their way to the top of the Mage's Guild doesn't make very much sense to me. I mean, why would anyone join the Mage's Guild with no intent to use their magic skills?

3. I think the Dark Brotherhood is a special exception. I mean, no character is going to openly identify themself as a professional assassin. They would probably have a day job in one of the other guilds as a cover. So I'm perfectly okay with being able to belong to an assassin guild and the more mundane ones with no major consequences.



I don't disagree that there need to be some kind of requirements for advancement, even if only to ensure that players aren't burning through their content at a blistering pace. However, see above* and below.*



Maybe we just have two very different views on what constitutes a "choice" and a "consequence". For me, choosing which dungeon I go in is no more of a choice than choosing which guy to shoot first in Call of Duty. That's just the moment to moment gameplay of these games. It requires no thought or consideration and certainly bears no meaningful consequence.



*But a player isn't really earning anything by leading a guild. There are no real perks or compelling gameplay to be had at the top of a guild. It's just a title on a stat screen.



Bethesda's target market is anyone they think they might be able to con into buying their game. They're absolutely not just going to court RPG players. Especially with all the unwarranted grief they receive from them. If they think they can sell a game to someone, they'll certainly market it to them. I mean, just look at how Dragon Age is marketed. Especially the Sacred Ashes trailer. (I think that's what it's called) Absolutely nothing in that trailer resembles anything close to what it's like to actually play the game, but they market it the way they do in hopes that your average gamer will think it looks cool and buy it. It's a dirty business trying to appeal to as many people as possibe, knowing full well some on both sides will be disappointed, but that's what it takes to make enough money to keep making games.

Since making the entire game world open concept would be a behemoth of a resource hog. Or do you mean for the game to then load that cell after going through the window?

Not with http://www.umbrasoftware.com/

Or that.

I think they should take some of the stuff from FO3 into TES5
Perks, being able to upgrade skills e.g blade, blunt, archery, conjuration etc instead of having it like oblivion where skills increase over time; Karma would be good, if you've got really good karma bandits, hghwaymen don't attack but villagers, knights, guards act really suspicious of you and blame you if someone gets killed near you but they say I'm holding you on suspicion of murder or something like that.
Also make large gangs of NPCs who work together. And make lots of breakable static objects e.g you can break a door that doesn't teleport you but one not one that does.
If a character drinks beer then there should be an animation and you should get drunk and disorientated, like in GTA4, people act differently to you
here are some responses to the drunk PC:
NORD: had to much ale *Chuckles*
Guard: Don't do anything stupid or you'll regret it
High elf: Get away from!! You people ruin are lives (I messed up on that one )

And I maintain that gameplay and logic can coincide very well. It had been doing so quite nicely for past games.


And yet that's exactly what the completionist who can't stand the idea of requirements and factional consequence does. He starts out with one archetype character, finishes the most appropriate faction questline for that archetype, and then moves onto another one. In this case, it's the Mages Guild. Since it's a bore to raise those minor skills from the barest minimum to acceptable standards, he instead utilizes those skills he already has. And the funny thing is... There's absolutely nothing in the game to stop or even seriously discourage you to do that. The fact remains that you can just blaze your way through to the head of the Mages Guild without knowing a single thing about magic. It's not so much whether people will use that opening or not; it's the fact that the opening exists at all.


And yet your character acquires infamy from their actions as a Dark Brotherhood agent. And while infamy is not something I agree with in the abstract, the concept it's exhibiting to the current example is valid. Even if you're the best assassin in the world, rumor is going to get around, some people are going to see things that, while mundane in and of themselves, put together with a sinister occurrence fosters the birth and potential spread of insinuations and inferences. In other words, after enough work in a faction of ill repute, people are going to have suspicions. Suspicions without proof will never get the law on your head, but suspicions certainly affect factional reactions. I'm not saying it has to be some big deal (the DB is a bit of a unique case), but it remains that consequences do exist.


In terms of past games, not always. The Morag Tong in Morrowind had assassination writs that were reserved for the player becoming Grandmaster. IIRC, Daggerfall still had randomized quests that the heads of factions could experience. And it doesn't have to be the boring cut-and-dry way for the next game, either.
And besides, pretty much everything that the player aims for in these games that have game mechanics attached is just a title on a stat screen. Heading the guilds isn't unique in that. Why do you seek out money? To get better equipment? Why do you seek out better equipment? To better tackle challenges in the world. Why do you seek to tackle challenges in the world? To get high fame / to get high infamy / to rise to the head of X faction / to complete the MQ / to achieve this bounty / etc, etc, etc. Aside from personal unique character goals, everything in these games boils down to something on a stat menu. It doesn't change the fact that a sufficient amount of earning goes into attaining that title on a stat menu.


That grab-who-you-can profit mentality can only remain stable and functional when they have a foundation from which to grab. You lose or cast aside the foundation, and then you either 1) painstakingly try to build up a new foundation out of bricks that hold no genre or title loyalty and are constantly scurrying about to other games, or 2) flounder, fail, and eventually collapse.




Ick. Perks are gimmicky, especially in the context of a game that has natural skill-progression based on use. And I rather like that skill-progression based on use; it's characteristic of TES, it's unique, and it's far more believable than "You leveled up! Now pick from a contrived list of bonuses that have no relation whatsoever to what you've actually done to improve yourself, and inexplicably take place instantly and without cohesion.


Double ick. Karma is just as bad as Fame/Infamy in that it portrays a universal morality system. And a universal morality system is not only completely unrealistic, unbelievable, and flawed, it's also boring as hell to boot. Why would I honestly believe that everyone in the world is going to look on my actions in the exact same light? Or even worse, that everyone's going to look at my actions through the polar extreme lenses of "supreme morality is good" or "it's good to be evil?" People have vast, varying, and numerous views of the world that cannot be captured with a blatant system of Good and Evil. Further, pre-Oblivion, TES has never had a universal morality system. It allowed the factions and people to judge you in a multitude of different ways based on the all-fairly-different concepts of what they thought was right and wrong. Far more muddled, far more morally challenging, far more believable, and far more entertaining and fun.

ThatOneGuy, I must commend you. You always seem to have the logical answer to everything for the next game, and beyond.

In Daggerfall, you never really became the head of the faction, just reached a very high elite rank. The Archmagister still ran the Mages Guild, the Night Mother was still the leader of the Dark Brotherhood, and Lord Bridwell always was the leader of the Knights of the Dragon. I don't know why Morrowind/Oblivion made you "leader" when you don't really do any administrative work.

:dance: Thanks!


Ah, didn't know that regarding Daggerfall.
And as to why the leaders don't do any administrative work as represented by game mechanics: Because the vast majority of administrative work is boring and doesn't make for good gameplay, let alone a good in-character lifestyle. However, it's not beyond the threshold of possibility to add functionality to the head rank. Perhaps reaching the head rank of the factions is not the reward for finishing the quest-line, but the instigation point for kicking off the questline endgame (and actually drawing out that endgame past one or two quests). Perhaps the head rank can make some limited scripted decisions about the future direction of that faction, and thus will get to partake in the similarly limited benefits/consequences of their decision.

I'm open to the idea that the player shouldn't be allowed to advance to the top, but if they are going to continue that trend, it certainly doesn't have to be boring. I think they're conscious of the lack of satisfaction for reaching the top. They overcompensated for it in the last game by trying too hard to make factional questlines "epic," but they're likely to correct and better refine that overcompensation in the next title. It would be far better for them to not attempt an epic plot-driven questline for the factions and instead build up a sense of responsibility (that's not too constraining and therefore not fun), entitlement, and purpose that comes with reaching the top.

And that, like most quest/faction related things in TES2, makes perfect sense.
You could achieve the highest rank in all the guilds*, but it was much, much more hard than in later games. First, you had skill requirements. It needed some serious practise to get skills high enough for one or two high guild ranks, let alone 5 or 6. Second, you needed to do alot of quests to gain reputation. Third, you could be promoted only once a month. Fourth, the reputation decayed if you stayed out of guild affairs for too long. Fifth, the previous could lead to being expelled or demoted in a guild.
Shortly put, you needed to work like a maniac if you wanted to 'pwn' all the guilds. Then, after reaching the desired status, you needed to keep working to keep it. And it might take you a year or more game time to achieve that.
While in TES4, you can 'pwn' everything in a week's gametime, without any of the skills that would be logically needed for your uberleet status.
That seriously svcks.

*only one of the 8 temples, and one of the many, many knightly orders though!

Travens' Plan:

As mentioned before, I thought making the necromancers "all evil" was a boneheaded move. However there IS a chance to turn this from a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger to http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeBrilliance and a possibility to add a storyline.

Personally I always thought there was something fishy about Hannibal Traven, even within the game there are some rumors and distrust about him. So here's a theory I had about what was really going on:


Travens path to power:
Traven started out as a relatively normal mage but with a interest in necromancy. Some day while studying some old necromancer documents that nobody has touched in decades he must have found something, a secret that could give him power beyond believe, even more than any lich could dream of. But in order to achieve that he had to have some obstacles out of the way.

First thing was that he did everything to rise in rank and get a permanent place in the arcane university. Once in a good position he started arranging things, placing fake notes, making documents disappear that might give away his plans and generally starting to make the guild get out of order. He mainly made it look like the necromancers where to blame of this stirring up distrust for them.

When things where in place he started to get in action and killed the old arch mage, with the fake notes in place and other documents missing everything pointed that HE should become the new arch mage and it worked. He was now leader of the guild.

With that it was time to take actions, since his plans depend on knowledge of necromancy the first action was to ban all necromancers from the mages guild, after all they where the only ones who might have been able to look through his plans. With blaming them for troubles within the guild and demonizing them it was childs play to have them either expelled, forced to give up their studies or even just killed.
Second was to close the gates of the arcane university and only allow people in that received recommendations, which HE still had to permit ultimately giving him full control over who can get close to him and who doesn't.


The expelled necromancers:
The necromancers now where not really "evil", the ones that where expelled where simply pissed beyond believe, after all you denied them their studies and pretty much kicked them out and left them without work for no real reason other than saying "no, you're out".
Naturally this leaves them super angry and open to join already existing extremist groups, and thats what happened. Necromancer clans that where already opposing the mages guild got a lot more members.

The necromancers where the only ones who could possibly see that he was up to something and maybe look through his plans. But with them expelled who would believe them that Traven was up to something?
And people studying necromancy to support the fight had to do it within the university where Traven had control over them so it wasn't possible that anyone accidentally stumbled over it.


Letting it all come together:
With his new position, power and control over who can get into the guild and who not the game was prepared, now he only had to wait till the tensions between the mages guild and the new expelled necromancers started to go critical, then send some gullible idiot (the player) in to complete his dirty work.

As you do missions for him he has you gather some necromancer artifacts though it's never explained why you have to bring those to him. After getting him a black soul gem, if I remember correctly, he asked you to leave him along for a while to "study" it.
However my guess is that in that time he destroyed any evidence and documents that might lead to his plan being uncovered. And the black soul gem he gave back at you was not the real ones you brought him but fake replicas.

Then the final point, why did Traven kill himself in the end. It doesn't make any sense outside making YOU the arch mage and giving you a black soul gem with a human soul in it, which itself is actually useless.
It's not even clear if that soul gem actually contained Travens soul, he could have easily prepared it before giving it to you.
While there is an explanation, it's said that the black soul gem containing his soul protects you from Mannimarcos powers, that explanation sounds quite weak and somewhat crafted. Even if the soul gem did it's possible it worked with any soul in it, not just travens.
The important part was that someone confronted Mannimarco and killed him leaving the path open for Traven.


Why all this:
That's the hard part to explain. As mentioned in the beginning, my theory is that Traven discovered something and then manipulated everything and everyone into making his attempts to reach that goal look like he was fighting for the "good side" and in the end committed a self sacrifice.
But who knows, maybe that sacrifice secretly made him a lich, it's possible that all that time he secretly studied necromancy. Hell he wouldn't even have to do it secretly, in his attempts to "know what the necromancers are up to" he was the only one who could openly study it without raising suspicion.
With the necromancers seen as evil, Mannimarco out of the way and Traven seen as a HERO the doors where open.


How it might come back:
Though it's not that usual that the games refer to a previous one outside some lines dropped here and there it's very possible that whatever Traven did might be revealed. It could even open the path for necromancers to return to the mages guild or at least become accepted again.
It would even excuse making them fully "evil" in Oblivion in a way.
There's also the theory that Mannimarco in Oblivion was actually a imposted and the real one is still "alive", however if this theory was true it still wouldn't necessarily contradict my theory. Traven still thought Mannimarco was dead and attempted to reach his goals and might even did so.
If there is a mission based on that he might reveal what he turned into. Mannimarco being alive might actually be more of a inconvenience than actually an obstacle at that point and, hey, maybe meeting the REAL Mannimarco might even a step in solving the whole thing.

I can see all the truth in this. By the way, in Hannibal's study, did anyone ever find a necromancy book? That'd be interesting. Also, the whole idea of Mannimarco being an imposter makes sense. He was SO weak in Oblivion. Danny, I continue to see the brilliance in you :drool:

You can be a monk and join in a church

Just checked, there are no necromancy books in his quarters. however he doesn't need to have the there, he has free access to the library of the university. And as mentioned he can freely study it without raising suspicion since he "fights the necromancers".

BTW. the theory that Mannimarco in Oblivion was a imposter is not new (and not my theory), it has just been around for a while. However a CLEAR sign that it might be true, aside Mannimarco from Daggefall and Oblivion look nothing alike, is, well, Mannimarco is a LICH, not just that, he's supposed to be the most powerfull Lich in Existance. And one ability of Lichs is that they CAN NOT DIE. Then how come you could beat him that easily?

In fact another theory might be that he "really was" Mannimarco, however just a "copy" he made of himself and mind controlled from his true lair. To anyone else it would seem like they really killed "him" but truely it was just a clone.