Please, please, please.... use Cryengine 3 :drool: :nod: ^_^ :clap: :hugs: Yeah it boggles the mind :ahhh: with awesomeness :twirl: :hubbahubba: This video http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/crysis/video/6206970/gdc-2009-cryengine-3-demo-video

Eh. Personally, I hope they stick with Gamebryo. Most of the problems that Gamebryo purportedly has are either taken care of via licensing the right plugins, or are user-related problems and not engine-related problems.
Besides, I'd rather they work with a moderate engine that they've modified for their own purposes and know back-to-front over a new shiny engine that they have absolutely no idea how to use.

I would personally like to see less emphasis on top notch graphics and more on an extremely vast environment. What happened to Arena taking place in ALL of Tamriel? I would like to see hundreds of immersive gameplay hours. Graphics are nice but what good do they do if I can only look at them for a few hours.?

But Morrowind replaced it with a working system! In Daggerfall scale it was a must, but in tiny Morrowind the silt striders, boats, mark/recall, scrolls and propylons were actually a brilliant system.

Then for Oblivion they merged a tiny world with a fast travel system that would better fit a huge world like Daggerfall's. And THEN they dumbed down the whole fast travel system to be an instant teleportation/almost a cheat. AND they even used it in Fallout 3!!! I mean wtf?

While that's true regarding scale and Morrowind, I just tire of the argument CONSISTENTLY being 'fast travel=bad' rather than 'in what ways can we make fast travel=good?' (immersive, roleplay centered etc...)
I know you provided some great suggestions in the past & really the essence shouldn't be FAST travel, but rather CONDENSED travel. Also, I'd PREFER a mixture of the two (Condensed travel & 'Morrowind' travel).

Bethesda should bring back Morrowind's system of travel back. Absinthe and Theglassprison have the right idea.

This is plain riddiculous.

If you want Morrowind travel, its all already there. Just dont use fasttravel. There. Done.

I think you probably missunderstood the sarcasm in there, it's not "Fable was bad" it's more like "That part of the idea vaguely sounds like something that was in fable so EVERYTHING in the idea is bad".
And related to that apparantly EVERYTHING that was in fable was bad, character development, NPCs, Trading, Big game world, Fantasy elements... yea all bad things that should never be used.

Absolute fail.

Morrowind's travel: Systems of caravans, sea-routes, and Mages Guild teleporters that all cost money to use, coupled with spells such as Mark/Recall and Intervention. Ironically, these are fast travel in the most basic nature of the mechanic. However, it is more believable and immersive travel, and it is properly limited so that I cannot simply pop up out of the ground somewhere by clicking a magic no-cost teleporter remote that magically advances the clock variable for me.

I've heard the "don't like it, don't use it" argument before, but never have I heard that I can get the full Morrowind fast travel experience by walking 100% of the time.

Honestly I say "DON'T remove fast travel but revise it AND also work on the issues that MAKE people use fast travel in the first place".

The big problem is that they just used ONE version of fast travel.
One question there, would you mind having a fast travel system that can get you from any point TO any point as long as it costs money?
I still think the "simulated travel" system is the best method where you can have unlimited fast travel but still somewhat display it realistic.

Note that my post does not state that the instant cost-less fast travel methods should be removed (though I'm sure it was heavily implied). It simply makes it clear that Morrowind's system of travel is not "not using fast travel."

Revise it? Sure. I've said before that I'm open to FT revisions, such as being able to travel anywhere on main roads. Work on what makes people use FT in the first place? Well, there's not much to work on. There's using FT to escape the dullness of the world design, and then there's using FT to avoid the tedium of walking absolutely everywhere in such a large world. Even if they eliminate the first one by actually taking the time to make their exteriors interesting and not an endless landscape clone, the second one will still always exist. Unless they plan on making their game roughly about the size of Mournhold or maybe even Stos M'Kai, people will always want to use FT in one way or another.

Being able to go anywhere even if it costs money? I don't know. I'm kind of leaning towards, "no," though. Off the beaten path, the world should be dangerous. And if I'm hiring simple caravaners or sailors, they're largely going to value their life and their safety over trekking the player to regions that are proverbial no-mans-lands. Or even semi-no-mans-lands.

EDIT: And I must confess, the phrases "unlimited fast travel" and "display it realistic" are contradictory in my eyes.
EDIT2: Clarification, contradictory only if the world isn't the size of great britain.

Well with "simulated travel" i mean the game calculates what your character would be like IF you walked all the way in real time, i linked to my suggestion on fast travel just a bit before so if you want you can check it out again.
Basically it's similar to how Daggerfall simulated the trip, the distance you walked, if you had encounters, you could even get hurt or sick on the way. However you should NOT DIE on the way, fast travel is supposed to make things easier and not punish you for using it.

And the game world doesn't have to be huge to use both systems, even if it was "just" Oblivions size or maybe 2 - 4 times as big having both systems would work. Besides having both systems gives you OPTION, use the Morrowind style services based one or the free travel which would STILL simulate your trip rather then just take time from point A to B.

Fast travel should be like Fallout 3 not Oblivion, discover location then you can Fast travel.
Also for those that don't like fast travel, don't use it! It's not being forced on you, and if anyone says it's to tempting then imagine it's a huge cake in the fridge, eat it and you'll regret it and go on about it to other people

Keep fast travel, do it Daniel's way with roads being the only conduit.

Then add back in Morrowind style travel to get between remote towns and villages, also allowing for instant teleportation to avoid time constraints, weather, monsters, etc.

One can not simply have Oblivion fast travel + Morrowind travel. Having two systems that do almost the same thing is messy and pure sloppy game design.


So how am I supposed to get from Anvil to Cheydenhal without walking or riding a horse? I suppose all the world's mages just woke up one day and forgot how to teleport? Am I not rich enough that I can't afford a carriage?

Agreed.
The current state of fast travel bypasses NPC interaction.
Simply because you've been near the door of a dungeon, it shouldn't mean that you can instantly, for no reason whatsoever, teleport to it.
Am I supposed to make pretend it's a ride from a caravan? Some dude on a horse let me jump on the back? A giant cliffracer took me?
At least in Morrowind your character's condition had a reaction. If you're a vampire, movement around the land is your responsibility. No one wants to give you a ride or offer services because they fear for their own safety. And diseases had effects as well.
This new-but-not-so-improved fast travel system offers nothing but a quick ride to bypass any realism the game might have.
And gaining a level in FO3 for discovering a place I haven't even been in yet wasn't very exciting.

Looked over the link.

I have a lot of contention with the Daggerfall-eqsue method of simulating events while in FT for a couple reasons.
First off, I am of the opinion that if my character is determined to have had an encounter along his travels, then the game should immediately revert to real-time. If I can just FT and have simulated adventures and occurrences where my skills increase and derived attributes change without any actual user input, then I might as well be playing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Quest If the game is going to simulate my growth, advancement, and experiences via getting from point A to point B, then perhaps it should simulate finishing my quests for me while I'm at it. Even in the "paying the bandits" example, who's to say that the bandits will let me on my merry way once I've paid them? Why is it assumed that they won't just kill me once they realize I can afford their ransom?

Secondly, even if I were to accept the game playing itself for me, I further take issue with softened consequences to the calculation of occurrences. Particularly, the inability to die from simulated occurrences just doesn't sit with me. I fully appreciate that it would have to be done as an anti-frustration mechanic, but its very necessity just further highlights the problems of simulated events in the first place; it shows an inability to commit to the concept in its full believability. Getting a simulated thrashing by bandits only to wake up just barely alive in a place of refuge is far too reminiscent of Pokemon or other RPGs where dying is pretty much impossible altogether. The problem is, as unlikely and unbelievable as it is that my character will somehow survive an attack by bloodthirsty lawless bandits the one time, it becomes exponentially less likely and believable when it's realized that every single simulated successful bandit attack will land me in that predicament. What is it about non-cognition that miraculously saves a player every single time, if not a meta-gaming consideration to prevent player frustration?

While an extremely-edited Oblivion/Daggerfall FT system might feasibly be able to be put alongside a Morrowind FT system, I can't see a basic Oblivion FT system being put alongside a Morrowind FT system in the next game. While such a setup would render all of my complaints pretty much null and void, the two forms of mechanics undermine each other. It's like saying, "Here, you can have this common soulgem that's worth 100 septims, or you can have the exact same soulgem that's worth 1 septim." Bethesda isn't going to put such contradictory mechanics side-by-side in the next game. They are going to have to choose.


For those that insist upon using the tired argument of "Don't like it, don't use it" for Oblivion/FO3 fast travel mechanics, tell me where I may find the option to toggle back on the ability to legitimately pay a ship-owner and to be constrained by their available destinations, to legitimately teleport between Mages Guild halls due to Guild Guides, or to legitimately cast a Mark spell and then be able to Recall to it later. Oh wait. Oblivion's FT mechanics rendered those things redundant, and so they were removed. Huh. Now where's my optionality, exactly?

OK, i'll try to answer again even though it seems i'm not getting anywhere with the whole fast travel thing (no pun intended)

First of, i never siad it simulates skill progression, it just simulates that you HAD an encounter and i think i DID write that you can choose to fight every encounter on the way YOURSELF too.
Second, I did write "Paying however wouldn't automatically mean you get out of it free." so bandit encounters are sometimes NOT solved by paying.
Third, the "waking up after being beaten down" IS meant to prevent frustration and using fast travel getting punished, and i didnt say "you wake up in the next settlement", i said somewhere on the side of the road with a CHANCE to make it tot the next settlement.
Fourth, having both systems DOES WORK as each has it's individual advantages and disadvantages. Walking by foot for example you are limited to your carrying capacity and you are a lot slower, if missions are designed to have more time limit issues this IS a point to considder. A payed travel service is faster and can transport a lot more inventory than going by foot.


I know what you want is an immersive system but you also need to remember gameplay decissions and what is simply a frustration factor.

Some more ideas:

1) looking into the sun blinds you
2) the time of day should have more influence over what creatures you run into (nocturnal vs. diurnal).
3) torches should weigh as much as a club
4) potions in your inventory should have a chance of breaking if you have a bunch of other heavy clutter
5) if you get hit with a fireball, there's a chance some of your scrolls and books get destroyed
6) murder should be punishable by death or life in prison, basically game over
7) you have to drop everything to be naked, no more just unequipping it
8) if you have a bunch of bulky items (more than 3 shields, 5 maces, etc) you shouldn't be able to do anything without a chance of dropping one of them
9) if you don't eat or drink for a few days, you pass out or die
10) food should spoil or be perishable over a period of time
11) no difficulty slider
12) the net weight of your inventory effect ALL of your skills

I think the above would really add to immersion.

Apologies for the skill progression; after giving it a second read, I'm not sure how I got that out of it. Perhaps I simply read Daggerfall and interpolated skill improvement on my own.
However, even the optionality of bypassing encounters still has a ProgressQuest feel to it. I can either do things myself, or I can hit a button and have the game do all the work for me and calculate out the end result, essentially turning the encounter into a Zero-Player game.


Missed that as well. Further apologies.


Where it is that you end up, all beaten and barely alive, is of little consequence, really. I just used the PokeCenter as a convenient example. Waking up near-dead on the side of the road doesn't change the illogic and complete unbelievability of never dying as the direct result of a simulated encounter, ever. That you might die from your weakened state trying to get back to the nearest settlement is irrelevant. If we are to simulate events in which death is a very possible outcome in realtime, then to not simulate the full spectrum of consequences for that realtime event is to not simulate the event at all. Hence why every encounter with a possible realtime-death-outcome should be an interrupt to the FT process.


I admitted that a heavily modified OB/DF system (which is essentially what you are arguing for) could very well potentially mesh with a MW system. I was simply noting that a completely unmodified OB system could not mesh with a MW system, as there would be no resolution to those advantages or disadvantages that you speak of.

However, I must note that things being "a lot slower" in an instant travel environment are only given weight by them reinstating timed quests, as you mention. And that's a whole other argument, but I think it's safe to say that such things are not likely to see the light of day again, for good or ill. The last Bethesda game, let alone a TES game, to have timed anything was Daggerfall. Their broad design decisions seem to have eschewed that style of play.

EDIT: Correction: The last Bethesda game to have widely-implemented timed anything was Daggerfall.

Further, a FT system that can transport more inventory than what on-foot could seems a bit superfluous, as you're still limited in what you can carry when approaching a caravaner or ship-owner. Unless I'm misreading your ideas on how such travel methods would be utilized.


I can recognize the eventual need for gameplay decisions undercutting logic in some cases, but mechanics that break immersion simply for the sake of avoiding frustration speak of a higher design problem than the specific mechanic itself. Metagame mechanics should be avoided as much as possible.


Also, another thing that I forgot to bring up regarding simulated walking: Is the player going to simply be selecting their destination and that's it? Or are they going to draw out their route on their map? If it's the former, then the game is basing its simulated encounters on some form of assumption of what route I am going to take, most likely being a straight line if there are no roads involved. That presents other problems; what if I'm in the middle of a wide roadless wilderness and want t cross it, but I want to avoid specific regions of that wilderness that I know are tougher than what I can handle? If the game is doing a straight-line path, and those regions just so happen to be on that path, then there's nothing I can do about it.

the fast travel debate continues. I liked MW's system, I liked FO2's even better. The best one I've seen in a long time is still Quest for Glory3's system - you looked down on a huge map and if you wanted to fast travel, time sped up and you watched an icon of your character walk across the map. Sometimes you would get randomly attacked by creatures on your trip and if you ran out of food you starved. I would like it if they revamped this system for TES5 - Limit it to roads and river routes. Include scheduled caravans or whatever, but make it actually difficult to travel long distances. My main beef with Oblivion travel is that the game and its quests were built with the knowledge that the character could warp all over the map. "Please deliver this message to the other side of the province and I'll give you 20 coins." Small reward because the quest could be completed in minutes. In reality a quest like that should take a (game) month and be very dangerous. I'm all about scale. If you tell me I'm in the Imperial province, I should not be able to walk across it in a day (there also shouldn't be something interesting to explore every five minutes, but that's another topic).

My other thought was the quests. I've recently been playing Borderlands and they have a quest board that you can go on to do little quests that probably didn't take too much time to set up. There's a text only announcement that says "Go kill x" or "collect y" and you get some money or equipment. Nothing crazy, because these are side quests. Why not have a board like that in the guilds? Fo3 really started the ball rolling with the final 'collect' missions. It seems everyone wants random stuff. You should be able to continue to do quests long after the game is done. Some adventuring with your uber character.
And please don't let the character become guildmaster so easily (preferably not at all) this time.

Quite temporarily, I hope. This is a minor effect. We all gaze up at the sun. I still got 20/20. And I'd venture to guess that a Khajiit could handle sun glare better, if it has black areas beneath the eyes, like a cheetah.

Good idea.

Are you sure? They're fabricated differently.

This is fantasy. You can be uber as a god, or a powerful mage. If you have the means, you can crack all the guards' skulls open, or simply teleport out of jail. "Game over" doesn't fit very well into open-ended games.

I don't understand.

You have to use your imagination here. You have a Strength of 100, and you're carrying 15 shields and 11 longswords. I'd venture to guess that you're not carrying it all in your arms like an oversized bundle of laundry. You're probably using rope/twine to lash it down to your pretend backpack, or tie it all together, or whatever. But you're strong enough to handle it, so hey.

People go without food or water for longer than that - without passing out or dying.

Unless you pretend that it's shelf stable, preserved with salt probably.

I like being able to choose. Why are you against this?

Why? If your skills and attributes are high, you're a pro at handling things.

Well we could only have one way or the other, i just say "no skill progression on fast travel". It's NOT that it plays the whole game for you, that's over exegerating it, it simply plays walkig a long an dpotetntially boring and tedious way for you and i don't see THA T as bad.


This really is simply a gameplay decission. Honestly it would be no fun at all to hit fast travle and then get a "you died on the way" message. That wouldn't add AYNTHING to the game, if you wake up beaten up you at least have a "turn back" chance or try another way and it's STILL more immersive than having to reload your last save. You have to keep THAT point in mind too, having to realod kills the games feeling too if not MORE.
And again it's NOT that you're invincible or just "can't die", you can very well die but not in an "automated sequence", that would be just as annoying as dying while a scripted sequence plays.

Also you could very well get the choice to RUN AWAY from a fight which gives you a survival chance too.


Well then that is not a issue on the fast travel but on the game design again. If there'd be things like food that can go bad or some missions that CHANGE depending on the timing it would make certain travel methods more important than other.


You could order a transport service to come to your house, as mentioned in anothe post your house itself could serve as a container meaning it's easy to transfer stuff in it in the kart and then have it moved. PLUS the kart can be brought to it's destination while YOU stay in that place or travel somewhere else. When you arrive at the destination your stuff was brought to it could wait ina cart or a large crate outside the door.


As mentioned before it IS heavily necessary to have some mechanics play FOR you and not against you. After all you can discard that the character can STAND for days without ever sitting down and never get problems with his knees, right?


In the "map travel" method i mentioned you CAN chose exactly which roads to take but the game also automatically tries to find the best route depending on HOW you tell it you want to travel. Read my suggestion again, i mentioned there should be different travel methods, some that are safer, some that are faster.

I think the extensive debate on carrying inventory is a little strange. I personally like the way Bethesda does it since it makes the most sense. Obviously no one in really life could carry 11 swords and 4 different sets of armor and 32 pieces of jewelry and such, but neither can they shoot fire from their hands or run for days or take more than 2 or 3 arrows or take numerous sword hits without dying eventually. I feel like the truly immersive quality of TES is the culture, politics and overall the general amount of thought that went into creating an ENTIRE world. You lose yourself for days exploring dungeons and talking to people and learning and reading books and I for one don't want to have to worry about having to hire a cart to come to my house that I probably wont ever be at to carry stuff I don't want to carry with me all the time anyways. I don't want to have to only carry 4 weapons either. For example, if I'm out in a dungeon and i find a large stash of high value objects that I want or want to sell, can I hire a cart there too? I think that while it doesn't make sense in a purely biological and physical standpoint, I would like to be able to carry all of it so that I can sell it later to creeper or a mud-crab. I would also like to take it all at once so that i don't have to go back and forth.

Why is mechanics such a big deal anyways? Thats not the part of the game that I like. I would love to see more intricate story-lines and quests, a much more involved relationship between guild, cities, and races, and an exceptionally huge environment, all of which ultimately suffer the more the designers have to program in a complex system of weight and travel.

Completely agree. For what "immersion" is lost in the fast travel system, the weight of items or inventory mechanics, the game more than makes up for in terms of lore, the setting, mood and what you mentioned. And to clear things up, only a few of the things on my last list were serious, the other things I mentioned were things that would add immersion but make the game less fun at the same time, I was being pretty facetious (is that the right word?). My apologies.

I did however really like #2 with the time of day affect what kind of creatures your run into. That sort of gives a life to the forest and the creatures.