That is something I understand but still logic applies in every universe. Also, I feel that the use of guns in Elder Scrolls would not detract from the overall story or setting as long as it is done intelligently and as long as what they do makes an overall amount of good sense, then I don't care either way. I'm not going to fight to the death for it to have guns nor am I so opposed that the use of the word gun offends me on this forum.

Not really. Ya comparing our timeline with fantasy.

It would distract the setting of the TES and most definitely, the gameplay, an important element of TES series.

Wait. Im lost. How does logic not apply? Given that, the developers could do anything they want, like make dancing monkeys the emperor and have all argonians turn in to airplanes and orcs would change colors at random intervals. Logic is there, it just has a different set of premises than our universe, making the conclusions different than what we see.

And how would guns distract the gameplay?

Because the logic of TES is already set and does not spontaneous change in randomness. Its only logical that it is fantasy and comparing it to reality is faulty at best.


Like I said before, it would change the balance of combat: bow and arrow render useless, melee ain't that effective, armors are gone, magic will be down graded, etc. This is alot of change just for adding guns.

Logic is impossible to "set". 1+1 will forever and always equal 2 (linearly) no matter how hard you try otherwise. The universe was inevitably created with the same logical rules as are but created under different conditions (that being that it was created by gods as opposed to some reactions of physics.

Ok one short reply on that:

NO-IT-WOULD-NOT.

But its near stationary as far setting of the game goes. It does not randomly change just because something else (that is completely different) change.


A short reply for myself:

YES-IT-WILL!

Pew-Pew, take a wild guess. If not, then its that the gun will outclass the bow and arrow in every way.

How would a bow and arrow be rendered useless?

To give an example why it would not be useless, you can relaod and fire a bow and arrow a lot faster than a gun and it's a lot more silent, possibly even lighter. It doesnt have as much punch to it but still.

unless made not to...
The stats are set by the developer, ultimately making it a choice

But I can see it that the crossbow will fit quite well for that system then just adding gun into it.


I rather doubt that itself as well. I would doubt developer would add gun and not expect repercussion afterward.

So you say it would be 100% impossible to balance out correctly.. huh maybe that was the reason crossbows where removed, they where IMPOSSIBLE to blaance out and would have made bows useless. Maybe we should remove magic, it can go overpowered far to fast, right? Or at least a big no to all enchanted weapons, mean using magic AND a weapon, far too unbalancing and IMPOSSIBLE to get done right.
And as we all know the swords where totaly made useless by the far overpowered ranged weapons in the game too.

If only to add a sense of progression in the world. I feel like the setting of 200 years later would seem like stretch to me if nothing at all changed. Just to say "and then 200 years happened" and everything looks the same, then its less believable than "At some point someone invented a gun which are slow to catch on since they are too pricey for the average denizen of Tamriel."

Why is everyone seeming to be wanting guns and modern weapons in TES? Shall we also add machine guns, nuculear bombs(dont refer me to the sword incident), pistols and shotguns? It's a fantasy - like LOTR etc etc. Sword and magic is how its been - be content with that. Jeez.

History and event of what happen within the 200 year is change as far as it goes. It does not have to be believable that 200 year went by like that.


It balance as a simple mechanism rather then enchantment or magic. Its already given that magic and enchantment is powerful, but the supply and usage is limited. I would bet crossbow is remove so the Dev do not have to deal with an extra mesh and animation, all the while, at the same time, Todd announce that everyone uses Bow and Arrow.

Is that the only reason you can see? I would want them because they can be an effective alternative to other ranged weapons, and in my opinion they would fit the setting.




No, they didn't create guns (they developed explosives tough). Their technology didn't die out, it is still being used and researched. But what i meant is, Morrowind used many fantastic elements in a realistic and believable context, unlike stereotypical fantasy settings, that just copy fantastic elements from others without establishing a context for them. TES has the potential to develop its own concepts, instead of keeping to the "this is how fantasy has to be" rules.




Sorry, can't answer to that, i really don't understand what you wrote there.




It works for them in the same principle as their traps. Easy to make, easy to use, and it annoys those nasty adventurers. Those little buggers don't think the way humans do.




Goblins cannot access mages guild articles that easily. The character does not have to use goblin guns, but the point is the goblins will do.




Like crossbows? Balanced != the same. Crossbows are different from bows and guns are different from both. Guns have high stopping power, but are loud and slow to reload. They, unlike staffs, ignore magical resistances. All have advantages and disadvantages.




I wouldn't want them as a beacon for change, i would want them as an alternative ranged weapon.




They have to make the mesh, texture, and animation for the bows too, and the crossbows, and swords, and staffs, and trees, and monsters, and NPCs, and everything else. Its not the big deal you try to make it look like.




That is the problem i was talking about before this turned into another gun discussion. Completely static worlds are just not very believable.
The people in TES are not stupid, they would try to invent new things and improve old things like architecture, technology, combat tactics, instead of saying: "Well, magic, destiny and the gods will do fine for me, i accept whatever happens." Logic DOES apply.


PS: If this goes on i suggest to make a new Firearms thread and use this here for "suggestions" again.

Its not that I won't play TES if it doesn't have guns. I just feel that the argument of "Thats just how its always been" is a bad argument because it doesn't actually give a reason not to. You want a reason not to have nuclear bombs? Because going from swords and arrows to nuclear fusion within a 200 year time period without an already well established school of advanced physical thinking is a bit of a stretch but even if they could manage the presence of nuclear bombs is a moot point when it comes down to personal combat. You can't very well launch a nuke at somebody. And if it's not personal combat, then it doesn't easily fit the conditions Role playing game.
Now, what's a good argument for not having guns?

In our universe, maybe. We're talking about a fictional universe, in which logic is whatever the creators feel like it should be. In TES it's more logical to see someone shoot fire out their hands than from a tube. Heck, even in our universe where logic is supposedly logical, nobody ever agrees on logic. Just look at this very discussion for enough proof on that.

I'm not sure how anyone can possibly say adding a new feature to combat will not change the balance of combat. Whether or not that feature is a good or bad change has little enough to do with the feature itself, as how it's implemented, and nobody's opinion has any effect on that. And the setting, again, IS rather indisputably compromised, as the definition of fantasy is focus on magic and the supernatural over science and technology. Guns, a technological weapon created by science, are obviously not a clean fit. Of course, there is always a spectrum to this; people aren't blobs of magic wearing magic clothes and walking on the magic ground. There's a degree of realism. The issue at hand is what kind of balance, what point on the fantasy spectrum, people would rather have. It is a matter of opinion, not a matter of whether guns "should" be there by any stretch of logic. Of course, every internet argument is people angrily trying to beat each other up with their opinions, so I don't know why I bother.

That's a HORRIBLE exegeration.
Try it like this, "I say we need stronger magic in the game" "YOU WANT SPELLS THAT CAN BLOW UP THE PLANET"... a bit over exegerted there huh?

The thing is none of use WANT guns really, we at most want people to thinka bout it before spewing total BS about why it should be sent to hell.

Oh yea and:

WHAM, here we have it... every fantasy is LotR, done, why should we do anything different. Lets make the Dunmer all evil, dark elves ARE evil in classic fantasy. Orks too, make them Evil. All wizards wear pointy hats and have long white beards and the whole story is Good vs Evil.
Bravo...

Rhekarid, you're the only person that I've seen piece together a decent argument against guns

If they reason they use Fable as an example of guns, then yes. There other ranged weapons that could be added back from Morrowind.


But while at the same time, considering that the Dwemers is pretty much the only race with that much technological skill, I rather doubt anyone else could come up with the idea of guns (and the dwemer did not even try making those thing either).


But trap tend to catch a whole bunch of prey at the same time, all th while they do not have to be their to see it happens.


But that assuming they are that smart, which is not.


Then it would create and off set that will unbalance the way on what makes a magic ans sword RPG. The gun will outclass all weapon if ever that the case. That, I rather not want to see.


In Oblivion, they did not bother making crossbow for the reason of creating the animation and mesh. This same goes with the throwables and spears.

They are coming from a age of darkness where their emperor is dead and almost of got kill off by a daedra prince. It does not help that many of the province wanted out of the Empire as well. Its an unsettling time and I doubt there any progression because of this age. It a time they pick up the piece and try to get back to a normal setting.


Then it will be more focus back on making TES better then just adding a gimmicky weapon.

It's not gimmicky if it works well

but you know, I actually have to give you that. If the choice is more on focusing on making a better game or adding guns, I throw my support in completely with making a better game

Its gimmicky if they just add the gun into the universe unexpectedly with out any way of how its there or the mere fact that guns is add there to "attract" other consumer of gamers.

EDIT: Miss the second part, but ya, that the idea of it.

Ganna call it a day, need some sleep.

Most of your arguments are based on your personal preferences and expectations. We have different preferences, and there is no point arguing about whose preferences are "right".
I won't continue discussing this topic with you.

I think guns should really just be put on a backburner for now. There are basically two issues at work: gameplay and setting.

The gameplay issue is how they would affect balance. This is hard to say, because we have no idea how the rest of the game will work. We only have different people's theories and suggestions, which will likely change in how the listener envisions it, and which of course also cannot take into account how the game will work. Say you have a gun-like weapon (as I hesitate to call anything that fires once and breaks a "real" gun). It's powerful, but noisy and only works once. It's temporary status is only an issue if they are hard to get. The noise is only an issue if enemies respond to sound. Enemies themselves are really only an issue if combat is deadlier, something that's been discussed in the past. IF such things were true, they could potentially be an effective tactical addition. Like any other feature, they could also be badly implemented; remember that much-maligned things like level scaling and fast travel are the direct result of fan requests.

The setting issue is entirely opinion. From a balancing standpoint, an item could be added that works almost exactly like a gun, but isn't one. My own past suggestions have included reflex bows (powerful and slow) and alchemical bombs (explosive and one-shot). I could add a pulse rifle that functions exactly like Oblivion's staves. Do some people want the return of those staves? Probably. Do some people want the addition of identical pulse rifles? Probably not as many. If someone's opinion is that they don't want a gun in their preferred setting, no argument is going to change that. What the item does is irrelevant.

Personally I'm on the side of not liking them in the setting. I'd rather focus on what I feel are more relevant tactical alternatives. On the topic at hand, though, we can't argue that opinion. It's not relevant to the thread, and while we can argue functions all day long, we have no info on the game and there's not much room for excessive yelling on "how they would work." Nobody is really doing much rational arguing on the suggestion side of it anyway, so much as shouting over the opinion side, and I think enough of the Suggestion Thread has been hijacked by that as it is.