That's really what they are. But nazi-elves sounds better to me.

Me describing Skyrim's plot to a friend: Vikings vs Romans vs Dragons vs Nazi-elves. No seriously. Except the nazis Final Solution is to unmake the universe.

Except they're neither socialist, nationalist (they're racist, not nationalist), or in anyway associated with the fasce as a symbol of power. What they are is:

1) Racist in a world where race is not a fallacious concept (unlike on earth, where all human races are the same except in trivial matters like need for sunscreen and the commonality of post-childhood lactose digestion)
2) Apparently Oligarchial
3) Anti-Aristocratic (given how they treated the nobility)
4) Transcendent
5) Militaristic
6) Expansionistic
7) Religious / Mystical

That's all the qualities I can solidly place on the Thalmor. I can't even think of any reason to believe they're actually totalitarian.

Night of Green Fire.

Killing dissidents doesn't make you totalitarian. From wikipedia: Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible. You can have a Totalitarian state that never kills anyone (relying instead on, say, prisons, or mutilation, or, in fantasy, mind control), and there have been tons of non-totalitarian states that killed tons of dissidents. In fact, most every state that started more than a few hundred years ago was non-totalitarian (because nobody could hope to be totalitarian before modern technology) and killed anyone who got in there way (because seriously, humans are bloodthirsty). For example, medieval European feudalism was non-totalitarian (everyone knew their place, and the King who overstepped his bounds would quickly become a dead king), and relied quite heavily on killing anyone who tried to shake up the established order.

So, barring the presumed oligarchy.....http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110802130119/fallout/images/9/97/Legate_Lanius_(mask_close_up).png

I kid, I kid. Lanius is quite clearly too awesome to be involved with the Thalmor.

I'd say that any state that makes humiliating demands on the religious practices of a foreign country, then waging total warfare on said polity when they fail - inevitably - to comply, is absolutely totalitarian. Also, the fact that there were political exiles at all strongly suggests, I dare say even necessarily demands, a totalitarian regime that abides absolutely no deviance from the acceptable forms of towing of the party line. Green-Fire Night was just the icing on the murdercake.

Then clearly you didn't pay enough attention in history class. That simply isn't what totalitarianism means. The Crusaders who wanted to make Jerusalem and the Holy Lands Christian were Feudalists, not Totalitarian, and nearly all forms of government have frequently engaged in opposition/dissident-slaughtering. Kings, Emperors, High Councils, Khans, Tribal Elders, et cetera, will and have decided that some form of opposition to their rule could only be answered with exile or death. When peasants got uppity, they often got the sword. When someone spoke out against an Oligarchial council, they usually weren't just answered with words. Most things aren't WWII, and most forms of harsh, brutal government aren't totalitarian.

To be totalitarian, a government must believe that it is the ultimate authority on all things, has the right to pass any sort of law it wishes, and must actively try to use all of these powers, regulating as many things as it can, in any way it wishes. This appears to be incompatible with what we have seen of the Dominion, since they appear to hold tradition and religion to be superior to their own authority. Il Duce, for example, regularly disregarded the Pope, whereas it seems impossible to imagine Alinor going against the wishes of Auri-El, given their great religious fervor.

Also, totalitarianism was crazy in ways that the Thalmor aren't*. Here's a quote from Il Duce: "We must finish once and for all with the neutrality of chess. We must condemn once and for all the formula 'chess for the sake of chess', like the formula 'art for art's sake'. We must organize shockbrigades of chess-players, and begin immediate realization of a Five-Year Plan for chess." In a totalitarian state, literally everything is (supposed to be) about the state. Totalitarianism is a very unique form of extremist governmental dikeishness, not a blanket term for every sort of dikeish, brutal government.

In summation, totalitarian =/= murder-happy dikes

*not that the Thalmor aren't crazy. They're blinded by hatred and refuse to pursue their goals in anything resembling a logical plan.

Also, seriously, dike isn't censored, but a synonym starting with "p" that also refers to the things porcupines are covered in is censored. Is that word waaaaay more offensive in some other country, or what?

This only makes sense, because the Mer used Lorkhan's Heart as a banner, to strike fear into the Nords.

Looks like a star burning six tongues of fire, stylized as a bird.

They are kind of an elitist oligarchic theocracy, with emphasis on actual religion replaced by striving towards their mythopoeic goals. At least that's what I get from them.

You're splitting very fine hairs, here.

Because, frankly there's many flavors of Totalitarian states, and your definition only really seems to apply to the Italian fascist tutti-frutti variety. The reason we're humming about Nazi Germany is - besides that Godwin's law says it must be so - because unlike Mussolini's Italy, where all was indeed in service to The State, in Germany even the state was considered to be in service to the Aryan Race. All of it, the suspension of civil rights for Non-Aryans and other Non-Gratas, the dissolution of the office of the Chancellory, the Anchluss of Austria and Sudetenland, and so on down the crazy-line.

So yeah, the Thalmor's power isn't limited by Altmeri tradition. It derives from it.

Whatever it is the symbol of altmer is an eagle , the symbol of the thalmor is a stylized gold eagle on black background.... Their armor colors are gilded at 90%and bordeaux the rest so I am wondering if I add a cape to the thalmor armor , perhaps for chiefs if should I do bordeaux or black ... I would go for dark bordeaux for aestethic reasons ...but perhaps black is more fitting?

Why not have the same colors/design as the Thalmor banner?

Bc the armors they wear are already gold/bordeaux

Ah, you meant the default elven armor. I would say retex the armor to black (there's already a lot of excellent Thalmor-themed recolors out there to use) and then add a black cape. I always interpreted the regular gold elven armor to be Aldmeri Dominion armor rather than Thalmor armor.

For the capes: I'd go black. All the Thalmor clothing seems to be black.

By applying definitions?


Here's the difference: the Aryan race was something the Nazis invented (or, well, stole & distorted from linguistic anthropology) as a tool of the state, and they freely and blatantly manipulated it for state purposes. They arbitrarily awarded Aryan status to the Japanese because "Aryan-ness" was something they invented as a tool for the state, and as such they had the absolute power to use that tool in any way they wished. The Third Reich was boundless in it's authority, including the ascription of Aryan status. Even some Jews were named Aryan.

On the other hand, as you said, the Thalmor derives its power from pre-existing Altmeri tradition and is thus only as powerful as it is obedient to that tradition. The Thalmor government is subservient to these ancient, independent, unchangeable principles. If they tried to declare, say, General Tullius an honorary Aldmer, they'd fail. The traditional principles, and the divine, are superior to the state of the Aldmeri Dominion, which makes them very different from a totalitarian state. It's almost like a constitutional system, but unlike most constitutional systems in the modern world, the "constitution of the Dominion" exists not to grant civil rights and decide how government operates, but instead exists to direct the goals of government, establish a social order, and protect racial purity.

This is a very big difference. It goes to the heart of what totalitarianism means.

Apparently the Thalmor are anarchists...

@ MinotaurWarrior, very well put. English is not my first language and my vocabulary is kind of lacking in trying to express my thoughts well. It is precisely some of things you adress, that I dislike the Nazi comparisons.
It is too simplistic a comparison to make but hey they act like bad guys who think they are superior so "omg nazi elves!".

I just hope any future installments will do them justice. We have enough moustauche twirling bad guys, I like for a main protagonist to have more depth.

dike is a name. How would you feel if your name was censored?

And I do think they are totalitarian. They have eugenics and all that.

dike is a nickname, for Richard, and a fair number of proper names do get partially censored by the forum. I'll admit, most of them are foreign or otherwise rare, but I've seen it happen. Anyway, I was less calling for dike to get censored than I was questioning why a particular synonym is.

Eugenics have absolutely nothing to do with totalitarian regimes. Sparta wasn't totalitarian, but it had eugenics programs. Totalitarian =/= has something in common with Nazi Germany.

Ok Just to explain why I asked theflags and all , here is the Thalmor officer Outfit I was working on , basically I add a cape and a field bodyflag ... I am open to sugestions for possibly other decorations on the flag , like symbolism , writings or deco or just leave it plain black ....

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/2919/thalmorofficer.jpg

I wouldn't object to a gold trim, similar to the cape.

Nifty.


Second that. The flag needs something more to make it stand out from the rods holding it.

It would actually serve to distinguish an officer on field , plus it offers protection from arrows , anyway is just an idea test , It is a separate item as is the cape so is usable or not , perhaps lowering it so to cover the head woudl be better? Or just remove at all? not entusiast with the result but perhaps it needs still some detailing , I touhgt that due to the Thalmor Arrogance attitude a , stand out on field , style of thing woudl fit better...

I was thinking to add some Writings as well , perhaps some faction symbol and a status symbol , any ideas?

this guy is actually the Chief commander of a Thalmor ship sent in expedition in the Sea of Ghosts to uncover an important item ...

Here is Ingame version with more decored Backflag ..... I think I like and will probably keep it what you think?

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6691/drojolkan.jpg

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2919/thalmorofficer.jpg