Ah how wonderful can a poet-god twist the truth and the world up into knots so that truths come out as lies and lies come out as truths. Are you right, are you wrong? How little difference does it make? As much difference as you are willing to pour into it. He lies if you want him to, he stands up if you want him to, and he tells the truth if you want him to. If you want him to do both, well that's your prerogative too.

I could only find one example of Vehk the god and Vehk the mortal in the Trial, but nothing about the god having always been. Though it appears to be a common legend on the internet. I suspect it was developed on the forums as a way to explain the historical validity of the Sermons, but that really is missing the point of the Sermons.

"As Vehk and Vehk I hereby answer, my right and my left, with black hands. Vehk the mortal did murder the Hortator. Vehk the God did not, and remains as written. And yet these two are the same being. And yet are not, save for one red moment."

As for the selective. If they changed the past there is no way for us to notice because we have been living that past. But then we remember these Marukhati breaking the dragon, had they succeeded in changing the past we'd have never known them trying. The only people to know would have been the Selective itself.

I believe comes from this:
“But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know. Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is. And so that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec."
(The Trial of Vivec)

Unfortunately I can't find the original source of this passage though it has been quoted in a few different forums and in an article in the Imperial Library.

Ok with the whole Auri-El/Anui-El/Akatosh thing I am mightly "head-warped" if that makes sense (or rather doesn't, proves the point lol). So see if I got this right: Auri-El is the Elven aspect of Anui-El who will later become Akatosh?

Nope. Not quite. Keep in mind that the gods are not people, but rather the ideas of people. You might describe their relations hierarchically in a single religion but between religions that does not make sense.

Anu-El together with Sithis are the two halves that create the interplay. They're otherwise known as Anu and Padomay. The first god to spring from this interplay and last is variously known in the Monomyth as Auri-El, Akatosh, Alkosh, ect.

The Nedic people of Cyrodiil had come to worship Altmeri gods, but when they were liberated by the Nords this was no longer possible. Alessia then put into place an amalgam of Nordic and Altmeri gods.

As such the ideas of Alduin and Auri-El (and perhaps Aka-Tusk) were melded together into what is now known Akatosh.

Multiple timelines were created. The aftermath of the Selective was them all joining into one. They added a new past, without erasing the old past.

That's how dragon breaks work, and this is why there are accounts of Vehk being both mortal and divine at the same period, and of Akatosh existing before Alessia.


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/obscure-where-were-you-when-dragon-broke

If it's form the trial it's probably in the forum archive.


This does not appear to be the case though. The conflicting accounts start when multiple gods appear and end when they disappear. Or at least, surrender their hold on time. The account of Vehk mortal and divine comes from Vehk himself and is limited to that period. There are no accounts of Vehk the mortal and Vehk the god outside of the break.

Could you provide a reference to the existence of Akatosh before Allesia?

Does Alduin being referenced as Akatosh' firstborn count?
Im a bit hazy on timelines here, but I think that the dragonwar takes place before Alessia.

The dragons call Akatosh "Borhamu", so he might be a different Akatosh.

In addition to Zardak's post, I should add this in-game quote from MW:

It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it.

I think your explanations regarding the effects (or absence therof) of time-changing are very good, but I wonder whether that is the whole story. Gods seem to exist beyond time in the same way that Elder Scrolls do, but also intrude on chronology in apparently discrete, temporally sensible ways, except when the Dragon gets messed up (I stress 'apparently'). I take Vivec's comment in the Trial to mean that there is a sort of extra-chronological dimension beyond Mundus. The Dragon presumably regulates intrusions into time. Is the 'barrier' against oblivion time, or related to it? What do you make of the relationship between aedra, daedra and time?

I am now thinking of One-Winged Angel as Auri-El's theme song.....

One of the best parts of the Aldudagga yet. Can't wait for the rest.

I bet the Seventh Fight is a dramatization of how Alduin was sealed by the Elder Scrolls by the three heroes.

Cheers. Done enough harping on it anyway.

I don't see much of a connection between the barrier and time. It's only by association with Akatosh in the Trials of St. Alessia. Though the general idea seems to be that this is merely Imperial embellishment to describe the acquisition of White Gold tower, Alessias ordination as High Priest of Akatosh and all that.

If you got the Words of the Clan Mother the barrier can be bypassed by knowing a secret. Azura apparently know it. So the barrier might merely obscure the way. Like a sign post pointing the wrong way.

The Aedra are dead so we can discount those now. And as for why the Daedra have no control over time while the enlightened of Mundus do, I can't say either. I'd hesitate a guess and say that they have some sort of ownership. They are still the descendants of the original creators. Or if you go by Vivecs teachings, Mundus was created for them as a vessel.

Can't say much about either really.

God... I can't believe you all buy his crap...

Youre looking at it from the wrong point of view.
It does not matter if anyone believes in all this crap.
It matters how our words approximate the mystery.

"we are the ape telling ourselves we really, really exist. We have stories that tell us so."

Actually from a scholarly standpoint, the fact that his writings are taken as fact here causes much stagnation in the lore community. In addition saying what you said is taking his stance on metaphysics and the principals of CHIM and applying it to the real world. I am not a dream. I am real flesh and blood. Not even getting into that. My problem is that when I discuss things such as the heresy he is quoted far too often and not enough in game lore is. Yes some of his stuff that hasn't ever appeared in the games is referenced, but it could be an Easter egg aimed at his many fans here.

The thing though is there really isn't a real TES "canon", it's whatever you want it to be

It's like the Gearbox expansions for Half-Life 1, Valve has said they wont ever tell you treating them as canon is wrong even though they will probably NEVER use any of the elements/plot devices from them in future games.

They are stories that will never be confirmed in official Valve games, but at the same time are canon if you want them to be.

The thing is that the lore is stuff that only comes from the games and the novels. The discussion is debate about what is canon. Whether or not the winner of the debates is right isn't what's truly important. The act of debate allows for deeper delving into the lore. There is canon however. It's canon that Martin septim turned into an avatar of akatosh to defeat Mehtunes Dagon for example. I'm just tired of seeing the heresy be the only thing offered up when people ask "who is talos?" for example.

Often people ask me 'is this really canon'
I then say: That is the wrong question.

It is lore.
If it is real or not is like history ultimately for you up to decide, there are things pointing towards things but no answers.

Is this canon is the wrong question, the right question is: what does this mean?
The right path is if it is interesting or not, if we only go on what appears in the games we would have no lore section to speak of.

I meant canon in terms of outside game material.

MK's works have just as much canon to them as Lord of soul does.

Hell bethesda's own games contradict themselves many times.


I like that, I really do.

Can we please not derail this thread into another tedious discussion of whether or not MK's work is canon? We've been through that song and dance a hundred times before. Make your own topic or something.

In a gameyverse where more often than not only what appears in the games themselves is considered 'really real'*
yes, I think it helps to keep pointing out that a wider frame of mind is helpful in appreciating TES lore in its finest.

I do think that what for you may be beating a dead horse for another man is an introduction into fineries.

*(Followed a discussion on fallout wiki talk page. Concensus determined that cazadores are not tarantula hawks and tarantula hawks could not be cited as inspiration, because no in-game source recognizes them as such. Even though their name tells you.)

I think everyone is missing the point here. The ONLY thing that is canon in The Elder Scrolls is your own experience. It's a gameworld you make yourself by playing the games, things have meaning and significance to them only in so far as you ascribe them so. MK monkey truth is something we can augment Tamriel as it is portrayed in the games, to make our own stories more vibrant. Reading MK's writings in game is peeping into what the elder scrolls is for his characters. Reading this out of game forum stuff gives us an idea of what the elder scrolls is for him. As it happens this turns out to be so vibrantly wonderful a lot of us want to understand TES in the same way Michael Kirkbride presents it.

That said I do have to agree with djtlite in one regard; MK is really only one writer. There are lots and lots of other voices, within Bethesda and without that are just as worth listening too. I say this as someone who loves MK almost much as Lady Nerevar. We shouldn't be too transfixed with MK though. His lush, Borgesian, neokafaesque sci-fi take on TES should inspire us to write our own, not slavishly try and fit everything in-game with MK's vision. Actually it's fine to do that too. But let's not pretend MK is the only game in town.

Awesome as you are saying that it is what we see in it. That of course must be true of each human endeavour, it is a mirror.
But also weak as it sort of is a cop-out saying that there is no master plan. That of course must.. see above.

Anu/ Padomay.
Heh.