I am not "speaking in character" I am being truthful. The NCR cares about no one but themselves. They annex any place that is doing good on there own and forces taxes upon them so they can become richer and stronger. They are greedy corrupt pigs. The Legion cares about a better future and creating a perfect society free of corruption. I could give two [censored] about the Legions sixism and harsh methods, the ends justify the means my friends. Caesar does not care what you think about the Legion because your to blind to see that what he is doing is the best thing for the Mojave, hell the best thing for the entire USA. And those who support greedy profligate scum bags deserve to be punished, and in the Legion there is only one punishment, and its the best punishment: death.

It's simple, I believe in Legion cause they will give humanity that kick in the ass that it needs.
It will unite the world under it's necessary cruel banner so that it can finally rebuild itself in peace without some factions or raiders or tribes or cults messing things up.
It's about progress in the long run.
The present? It will svck for a crapload of people.
But the future? If Legion's plan works out then the future will be bright for humanity as a whole on the western half of the US.
If there was another faction that I could trust to bring humanity together and rebuild then I wouldn't support Legion.
But what I see is a man so obsessed about the past that he cares not for the people in Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado or Core Region.
I see a nation that uses diplomacy and the old world as a facade just so that they can take what they want and leave what they don't want to rot.
NCR is nothing more but glorified raiders that brainwashes it's people to think that what they're doing is the "right thing to do."
When they're really just locusts that serve their politicians and brahmin barons and save take the lands in the name of democracy prosperity.

And who else do we have?
Who else can on a large scale unite the world?
Lyons Brotherhood? They're what? 100 people maybe? With the problem they had with super mutants for 30 years I cannot believe that they will be able to help the world before going under in a civil war against other BOS chapters.
So I think about the future, not the comfort of the present.
I do not care about my wishes, my needs, my comfort.
I care about humanity getting out the [censored] ditch it's been lying in for the last 200 years and actually pick itself up.
Sure Legion aren't exactly the most humane or kind people, but at least they can achieve this.
And all countries throughout history has had dark moments, all of which necessary to bring humanity to the civilized state it was before the Great War.

Humanity is in shambles once again.
You can't just pick off where the old world left off.
You have to start again, begin anew.
Legion is the Wastelands dark history, but what will blossom out of it will be beautiful.
It won't be under my lifetime.
It's going to take a hundred years or so, but through the sweat tears and blood of slaves humanity will finally restore itself.

That is my reason for liking the Legion.
Do you think I like the slavery?
Do you think I like the oppression of women?
Do you think I like the brutal tactics?
Do you think I like the deceit?
I don't.
But if it's what it takes to down the road rebuild the world then so be it.
Screw what I think about it. It's for the greater good.
If there was another way I'd be all for it, but there isn't, so I side with Legion.

/opinion.

I believe that no evil is done without something good being striven for, even if the idea is strewn with insanity (I mean in the context of crazy people killing people, they do it because their crazy is telling them that something good'll come out of it, whether it be self serving or charitable, i cannot say). I hate the Legion, do not get me wrong, they are despicable, their customs, while respectable as a show of strength and fortitude, defy the very greatest of values of morality, and while i am not one for morality, as i have expressed my dis-concern for morality when price is being negotiated, i cannot overlook certain factors in the Legion, such as the careless use of devoted soldiers, the unwell treatment of minority groups such as the elderly or female, or the refusal to make use of the most common of technological advances to better the lives of its people; but i also cannot overlook the superior training those devoted soldiers receive, the guaranteed safety those unwell treated minority groups live in, and the self sufficiency and efficiency that has been made in the absence of common technology.

Plus i am a fanatic to an organization that is willing to shed the blood of anyone, as long as the man doing the shooting gets his pay. So, i am different from Gab, she cares about the future, no concern with the present.

I couldn't care less about the future, I wont live see it, but I can tell you that guns and money will always be valuable, so long as the person with the guns and money says so.

This a million times. :clap:

The one and only thing I do not like about the Legion is the soldiers dependency on there Centurion/Decanus. If each Legionary knew what to do after there commander died and didn't just off themselves then and there then the Legion would be nearly unstoppable. But even still Centurions rarely fall in battle anyways, they are experts at planning attacks and executing them. The Legion is a very strong military force but I do believe they could be even stronger.

True enough that the legion is better able to protect thier people but it comes at the price of individuality. In the legion you are not a person, you are a comodity, a resource to be used as Caesar decides. As far as Caesar's soldiers being happy to be used as they are, considering that they brain wash them at youth they really know nothing different, as such are unqualified to make a reasonable determination because they lack the entirety of the facts. Kind of like a dog who gets a kick from its master every day, after awhile the dog will accept this as part of life even to the point it may even get confused in the event the master misses a day. That is the legion. Sure the territory of Caesar is safer from bandits and thugs because the the legion itself consists of institutional thuggery and these are the worst type. There are thugs that steal things, the legion on the other hand is infinitely worse in that the legion steals lives. Again in the legion life has NO value, and sure in the Mohave life has no value as one can get jumped for pocket lint. The major difference is this robbery is strictly an individual approach (bandits), where as with the legion this robbery is orginizational and one may be able to surrender thier goods to the common theif and walk away, (unlikely but possible) but Caesar wants everything your lint and your life and will accept nothing less.

The NCR is by no means perfect, and sure they will want a bit of your treasure, ( hey soldiers cost money to pay to secure roads) but the legion wants it all (you must surrender EVERYTHING your person, your individuality and your treasure to the legion) and accepting legion safety is to accept that you are nothing, worth nothing, and have only the value as determined by a nut job with a god complex. At least as ineffectual as the NCR can be on occasion, they are limited in what they want from you, and usually it is just money, which is a thing easily replaced by effort. What you accumulate by your effort is yours according to the NCR of course that is minus a little to provide some protection. In simple terms the legion is like a wet blanket, heavy, smothering, and the protection the legion provides is an illusion (wet blankets do not provide warmth) because in alot of ways the Legion is no different from Fiends, Vipers, and bandits, just better organized. The NCR on the other hand is like a net, it still exudes some control, it is tactile, yet it is not designed to protect therefore no illusion, and because of the design still allows those under the net to breathe. So the legion does offer something, illusion, and corruption of a different sort. In the end push comes to shove, i preffer to be in a system that allows me to be myself, allows me to rise or fall based entirely upon my effort, does not smother me with the illusion of safety and allows all people male and female to be free to seek thier OWN destiny. I will take the uncertainty of the future that the NCR offers over the gilded cage the Legion provides, because while the cage might be made of solid gold it is still a cage and i will pass Mr. Caesar thanks all the same.

Asai

You can't really blame the TC or any Pro-NCR, Anti-Legion people. The game is obviously bias toward one faction (I don't feel the need to post all the reasons why, the most obvious being the fact that there are absolutely no Pro-Legion companions) so it's expected. Most will just learn about the slavery bit and the rest is "derp, bad gaiz". Personally I'd of loved the developers gave each faction a fair shake but I suppose the ever-so overdone "Good versus Evil" shtick is required for the less cerebral, more casual fans.

I like you believe that all of these things are necessary it is just the the Legion wants to high a price for it. I am not willing to sell the soul of the species for the illusion of safety and unity that the legion would have anyone who would listen provides. To side with the legion is to sell all of that which makes us human, our empathy, compassion for what, a little less chance that you might get robbed, when the legion will steal that which is not replaceable.......you.

Asai

Oh humanity will persevere, it has done before and will do so again.
It's not like the Legion as we know it will be the same after 100 years.
It'll change with time, opening up to ideas such as allowing women's rights again.
It'll take it's time, but humanity does not lose it's soul with the Legion, Legion saves it.

Yep.

And whoever said Caesar was a nut job is very wrong. Caesar is a genius. Look what he had done, look at the Empire he has formed. He was close to being killed by some savage tribals but instead he turned them into one of the strongest forces in the entire US Wasteland. Caesar is far from a nut job.

Hey, don't act like I agree with GvE, I dislike the Legion primarily because they are bad for business, the only reason i don't hate them solely for that reason is that they aren't completely opposed to using outside forces (IE Khans and Fiends), so that is a little bit of business, but they are bad in the long run, for my short term, the morals thing, while very low on my list of importance, is the straw that breaks the Brahmin's back.

Interesting that you have such feelings in that i have given much more than just the slavery derp explination. I have provided serious cereberal reasons to back up my anti-legion position. What i do find a bit disconcerting is that it is even necessary to provide a more cereberal explanation for my position that goes past slavery. IMHO slavery should be all the reason necessary and anything else should be icing on the cake, to own another person is WRONG regardless of who or the reason used to justify it. There is no greater gift than the right of self determination, and like any gift it can be used poorly, but to deny that gift to everyone because a few choose to use it poorly infantalizes us all. I do not see how the developers or anyone for that matter could put slavery in a positive light, good luck with that i for one am waiting patiently for someone to attempt this, good luck.

For me i can not get past slavery all of the rest i use is there to provide a bit more detail as to why i feel this way, but the Legion WILL NOT save humanity as in my games Caesar and his chain of command will not make it past the batle of the Dam. I recognize the danger the Legion is and take steps to end this problem before it gets any further. Curing the Legion sickness one bullet at a time. I also do not think there could be any companion that the developers could have made that would entice me to support the legion on the contrary it would be just one more necessary bullet to expend. It does sound fun though i like shooting the legion they die so well and well as fertilizer the legion provides so much more of a benefit for the Mohave than they do alive, make all you want i will crunch them up.

Asai

The Ancient Greeks and Romans that our entire Western world is based off of would beg to differ. Even Athens, the starting point of the entire modern world, had slaves and misogyny.

Well, that's one way to look at it. The biggest mistake that I see being made here is people keep comparing the world of Fallout to our own. Obviously slavery is wrong in a (comparatively) perfect world. In the broken world of Fallout, however, where you have roaming gangs of drug addicted psycopaths cutting peoples heads off and the like, you need a hard ass civilization to come along and put their boot heel down on throat of said psychopaths, as that's the only way obedience can be taught to savages. Certainly the civilization the Legion is based off of understood this, and consequently built a legitimate society after the large, roaming hordes of barbarians were put in their place.

I see a very clear parallel here. You have your warring tribals in Arizona and the like, killing each other over silly disputes and what have you. Are the Legion's methods brutal? Absolutely. My point is in a world where brutality is the national language, using tactics the Legion uses is the only way to get through to them. Their laying down the foundation for a real, humane society to be built.

Once the larger factions have been made to walk under the yoke and the Legion has absolute control of America, more progressive ideas can and will spread among the more free thinking individuals and, naturally, revolution will occur. This makes more sense to me then the NCR, who seem to think they can fix everything by getting back to the way things were. Worst case scenario they fail horribly and everything remains as it is, best case they get ahold of some nuclear bombs and restart the entire cycle.

Moral relativism is such a stupid waste of time, and is utterly pathetic. Tossing technicalities around and trying to make everything circumstance specific is the trademark of the fence-sitting, waffling [censored]. Take a position stand up for something already.

lol, woah >.< whats with all the hate? I mean sure the legion are a bit cruel towards others, but only to show justice on where NCR doesnt provide..the two, NCR and Legion, are basically Capital Wasteland brotherhood that has been splitted by their two personalities: to protect others with their lives and determination of crushing the enemy (Legion) and to control their grip on land and resources (NCR), and they were the good guys sooo...yeah, I mean don't mind me im just the middle-man ;) highest bidder and im game for any team XD -sits back with my Fatman ready and sips some water- another biased war incoming >.> can't wait to blow something up

Fair enough the problem is Caesar puts that boot to everyone, regardless. ALL SHALL BOW TO CAESAR!, (to which i will give Caesar the one finger salute), using the finger adjacent to it to put the rabid mongrel down. See the problem is that as a species we have already based our civilizations on the empires of the past incorporating thier ideas as our own tweaking and changing them as the world around us changes. The legion would drag the species back 2000 years plus in the name of foward progress. Seriously heads on pikes, and crucifixtions? Really? That is just being [censored]s. I just do not see how using (since the world has gone up in nuclear fire) failed ideas of the past, (basing a civlization) on what has for all intents and purposes failed already. The basing of our societies upon the Roman or Greek empires has at least in the FONV universe already failed so the Legion experiment has already run the course and lead to a nuclear exchange. To expect that a repeat of the Roman experience will yield different result is by definition insanity, as the definition of insanity is to do something again and expect a different result, the Roman/Greek experiment has already been tried and at least in the FONV universe has failed.

The legion offers nothing more than a repeat of past mistakes, and by doing so destroys the future that everyone is so desperate to save. The future needs to be based upon something so radically different, it will require free thought, the will to support that free thought, and a system of government willing to accept the change. The issue is that there is no room in an autocratic system such as the legion for this. On the contrary the legion as all oppressive systems will supress free thought as detrimental not to the people but detrimental to the individuals in power, people in power will never surrender that power willingly (it is why communism will always fail, because it does not account for human nature). The Roman/Greek governments offered the best possible system at the time and our species had no other example to follow, but as our society advanced we through greater leisure time allowed some folks to sit back and ponder the mysteries of the universe. By the patronage of those with means they allowed art and philosophy to flourish, they allowed an individual to sit idle and ask "what if ?".

Caesar wants to take the species back beyond that development, through radical assimilation of the tribes they conquor, very much like the Spanish conquistadors destroyed the Aztec, Myan and Incan civilizations, and any culture they may have developed because they never took the time to try and understand it, this is also the Legion way. You can not advance a society into the future by dragging it backwards, you can not save the species by oppression and cruelty. Like religion all must come to god of thier own accord as anything else defeats the purpose of faith, so must the species come together of its own accord, because anything else is just oppression and will fail as all systems in the past built on oppression have.

Asai

Isnt the NCR doing exactly what you said, only without the long lasting time of NOT nuking the world?

Yes but the NCR system is by nature of democratic principles more flexible. I am not an NCR supporter either i just recognize the NCR as the lesser of 2 evils. Having the choices limited to NCR or the Legion i will take the NCR as the lesser of 2 evils, but it is not the savior of humanity, it is only a stop gap measure until Mr. House can be brought online. If one opens up the choices as the game does to NCR, Legion, or House, now the decision is not one of lesser of 2 evils, and a no brainer there is a clear winner in this choice and by picking House the species wins. As i am on my 5th character now, having the obligatory one of each possible ending already, and by the virtue of my previous replays providing me with some meta gaming knowledge, but also learing and discovering more and more of the story, character number 5 will send the NCR and the Legion packing. I shall not be cruel about it to the NCR as like with children i do not want to squash thier enthusiasm, more like channel it. The Legion on the other hand will get no quarter. I shal send both parties packing with a heart felt thanks to the NCR for all thier caps, and a thanks to the Legion having played thier part in the little desert drama as a counter point to NCR power, and allowing Mr. House time to develop his power base.

Even in that regard the Legion IMHO shall be killed where ever i find them, very much like shooting a rabid dog is a public service so is fertalizing the Mohave with any and all legionaires and thier supporters. The legion and the NCR both offer corruption, the only difference is the type of corruption. You can say i hate the legion, you can say i am blind to anything the legion thinks it can offer, instead choosing to exterminate them with extreme prejudice when ever i find they have soiled the Mohave with thier passing.

Asai

the Legion treat their dogs better than Women, and for that reason I had to wipe them from the face of the Mojave. With extreme prejudice. Come back when you have a clue how Rome was actually run, you ex-Follower scumbag.

Back in the old Roman days, slaves were considered property, so I'd say it's fairly accurate.

Oh look another thread were legion fanatics throw out ridiculous speculation about what they 'think' the Legion will do in the future.
Even though there is no evidence, not even an insinuation that they will ever be anything more than Mongols. A society that lives to conquer and enslave.

I've already seen the futuility of trying to show them that their beliefs are nothing more that wishfull thinking..
Enjoy your ranting thread were certain people will repeat themselves ad-infinitum.

There's always people who sympathize with the Empire.

The Enclave (not the Capital Wasteland version either)
Caesar's Legion
The Master

It's always there.

I think I'm probably the only one here who fights the Legion because they oppose me, as opposed to my beliefs. If the Legion was more cordial about my House supporting like NCR is, I'd be more than happy to let NCR and Caesars Legion duke it out on my front yard. Sadly, the Legion isn't as live and let live as I am. So, whatever, it's their funeral. :shrug:

Slaves were property, but not all women were slaves. Women owned slaves, land, etc. They couldn't join the army, or senate (I don't think), but they weren't treated like brahmin just because they were women.