I think rather than removing these skills why not just implement tham better? Only being able to add 1 point to luck at level up is quite the annoyance so why not introduce a skill that uses it? Like say gambling, have it as a skill used in betting on mini-games. The higher the skill and Luck attribute, the more often you win. This is just an example of how to improve it. Now for speed, in a gmae where characters are meant to be different then yeah we should have varing speeds. Seeing how i could outrun almost any animal in Oblivon at 100 Speed then i think animals should have their own speed multiplier or higher speed caps, to prevent fast player from being able to outrun anything, also increaes the difficulty forcing to to stand and fight against persistant fast animals. Other improvements i'd like to see are more choices in ranged weapons, like short bows, longbows e.t.c. there was what, 7 different types of bows but how many blunt and blade weapons? Something unique like say a mage bow that uses a basic fire spell to propel the arrow faster but drains magic when used (Or if your feeling creative with your logic, a weight alteration spell that makes the arrow heavier upon firing to give more momentum e.t.c). A little variation like that does make a lot of difference. So an improvement on ranged/marksman skill would be great too.

The problem with agility and speed is with their implementation in past TES games. They can definately be seperate worthwile attributes in the next game.

As others already said, speed is tied to running speed, jumping height, and possibly the speed of swinging your weapon. That's because speed is simply tied to muscle speed. That doesn't have much to do with coordination, just pure training of your muscles.

Agility (or dexterity) is more about balance and coordination (also hand-eye). You can have loads of speed, but if you've got poor balance and muscle control that won't allow you to dodge enemy attacks effectively because your movement is too clumsy. With high agility you'd be able to accellerate very quickly, while speed affects your maximum running speed.

This would make speed more important for heavy armour warriors. They need to close the distance to melee range against ranged opponents, and then they can let their weapons do the work in close range. They can block blows instead of dodging them, and with a weapon with high range it's easy to hit the opponent. Thieves will want agility to dodge blows and do quick strikes.

That would also change something that really needs changing. In Oblivion everyone was at full speed right away. This made melee fights way too hectic.

I have an example that would probably show the difference between the Speed cut and the Endurance cut. But its Christmas, almost breakfast time, and I don't really want to think it through completely right now. (Oh, and Merry Christmas and all that)

So the basics, in no particular order.


endurance muscle and power muscle, or in more general terms being buff or toned.
Climbing as a prime example of the difference.
Then the concept of running, itself, and what it utilizes.

Finally, If you can run fast, great, it doesn't translate to fast arm movements ala short-sword.
On the other hand weight training or conditioning have a more universal effect. (universal as to have a main attribute)

The lack of much at all being entirely reliant on Speed, and furthermore the continued usefulness of Endurance.




Sidenote: I did not actually get the bit about 5 being more important to the archetypes than 6, which could create pure classes and all the derivations in between.
Unless it was satire, then it may as well have been a jetliner.

Speed should be replaced-renamed by reflexe. This stat should cover what require intellectual of physical responsiveness.
Agility may be more about dexterity and precision, governing carefull moves.
For the running question, I would make the speed governed by STR and reflexes and the fatigue question by endurance, as proposed, but maybe athletics shoulsd still exist as a skill to cover a more technical dimension of this natural activity, maybe improving the base running speed stat.
To finish, I would really like to see devs breaking with the symetric/rigid system of having each skill governed by a single stat. Many skills may depend on a different stat according to the precise use the character make of it : bashing violentely a sword on a gobelin head is about STR while thrwoing quick attacks to harrass a too armored foe is more about agility or reflexe.
To summarize : there are 3 layers :
1/ the action that is governed by
2/ a skill, a knowlege and
3/ powered by some of the character natural ability,

A skill will allow various actions. Stats should be linked to actions, not skills.
Progression of both skills and stats will be based on the frequency ans success of actions implying them.

I'm more in favor of multiple attribute skill reliance myself so I'd want more attributes rather than less. The problem I see with the current system is skills don't fall neatly under a single attribute and micro managing attributes to affect skills is mundane and yet still over simplified. In order to bridge the gap between real time fp interface and stat based character progression IMO we need to further embrace TES's use it to level it system by letting attributes lvl the same as skills, in the background. This will allow more skills to be added without confusing the average player with long lists of numbers they have to manage. This also allows the removal of attribute boosting at level up and the addition of trades would round out the system. Trades are a combination of two or more skills and all actions in the game that fall under a specific trade will increment exp gain in the skills used for that trade as well as the attributes used for the skills. This is how I envision it:

12 Attributes:

Dexterity..........How well you can use your arms and hands. Determines the type of weapons you can wield.
Governs 26.8% of 17 skills and 15.2% of total skill set.
Wisdom...........Mental capacity. Determines max # of spells you can learn, the # of skills and trades you can master and 20% of total magika.
Governs 35.8% of 12 skills and 14.3% of total skill set.
Strength...........How much you can lift or carry. Determines 50% of total encumbrance
Governs 35% of 10 skills and 11.7% of total skill set.
Agility..............How well you can use your legs and feet. Determines speed of lateral movement(strafe) and backward speed when running.
Governs 27.25 of 12 skills and 10.9% of total skill set.
Endurance........Stamina. Determines your total hp gain at level up, the rate at which fatigue is restored and 50% of total encumbrance
Governs 28.5% of 10 skills and 9.5% of total skill set.
Intelligence.......Learning rate. Determines 20% of total magika and the rate at which all experience is gained with the exception of major and minor skills being fixed.
Governs 25% of 10 skills and 8.3% of total skill set.
Speed..............How fast you can move. Determines rate of fire with ranged weapons and short blades, critical strike rate and your turning speed
Governs 27.5% of 8 skills and 7.5% of total skill set.
Perception........Awareness. Determines the distance at which enemies are detected
Governs 31.5% of 7 skills and 7.4% of total skill set.
Willpower.........Magic Ability. Determines the rate magika recovery and 40% of total magika
Governs 38% of 5 skills and 6.3% of total skill set.
Charisma.........How well you influence others. Determines # of followers you can have.
Governs 53.4% of 3 skills and 5.4% of total skill set.
Faith................Spirituality( how receptive your heart and mind are to the gods and the dead). Determines the # of undead followers you can have and 20% of total magika
Governs 36.3% of 3 skills and 3.7% of total skill set.
Luck................Effects everything in a small way

30 skills each governed by a certain percentage of 3-4 attributes:
Combat/Physical
Short Blade..........Determines effectiveness of knives, daggers and short swords
spd 60%, dex 30%, agi 10%
Long Blade...........Determines effectiveness of longswords, katanas, and claymores
str 50%, end 30%, dex 10%, spd 10%
Light Blunt............Determines effectiveness of hammers, hatchets and maces
str 40%, dex 20%, end 20%, spd 20%
Heavy Blunt..........Determines effectiveness of pickaxes, axes, battleaxes and warhammers
str 50%, end 40%, agi 10%
Spear...................Determines effectiveness of spears and halberds
spd 50%, dex 30%, agi 20%
Marksman............Determines effectiveness of throwing weapons, bows and crossbows
dex 40%, str 20%, per 20%, spd 20%
Block...................Determines effectiveness of shield and off hand weapons
str 50%, end 40%, agi 10%
Light Armor..........Determines effectiveness of light armor
agi 60%, spd 30%, str 10%
Heavy Armor.........Determines effectiveness of heavy armor
str 50%, end 40%, agi 10%
Sneak.................Determines how well enemy detects you
agi 50%, per 30%, dex 20%
Hand-to-hand.......Determines effectiveness in combat with hands and feet
spd 25%, dex 25%, agi 25%, end 25%
Athletics..............Determines fatigue recovery rate and max running speed
end 40%, spd 30%, agi 20%, dex 10%
Acrobatics...........Determines how high you can jump and what you can climb
agi 40%, dex 30%, end 20%, str 10%

Artisan/Utilitarian
Mechanical...........Determines your understanding of locks, traps and other mechanisms
dex 60%, wis 30%, per 10%
Armorer................Determines effectiveness of armor and weapon repair
str 50%, dex 30%, end 20%
Construction.........Determines how well you can build objects and structures
dex 40%, wis 30%, str 20%, end 10%
Crafting................Determines how well you can carve, chisel, cut, drill and craft intricate objects
dex 50%, wis 40%, int 10%
Cooking...............Determines restorative effect of prepared foods
wis 50%, int 30%, dex 20%
Botany................Determines effectiveness of planting and harvesting
wis 60%, int 30%, dex 10%
Alchemy...............Determines effectiveness of created potions
int 50%, wis 30%, dex 20%
Woodsman..........Determines how well you can, track, trap and locate resources(plants and animals)
per 50%, wis 30%, agi 20%
Survival................Determines how well you can make fires, skin animals and locate resources(water and minerals)
per 60%, agi, 20%, dex 20%
Mercantile............Determines the price at which you buy and sell goods
chr 40%, wis 40%, per 20%
Speech Craft........Determines effectiveness of persuasion
chr 50%, per 30%, fth 20%

Magic
Destruction...........
will 70%, wis 20%, int 10%
Alteration..............
will 60%, wis 30%, int 10%
Illusion.................
chr 70%, wis 20%, int 10%
Conjuration...........Determines effectiveness of commanding a soul
fth 50%, int 30%, will 20%
Mysticism............Determines effectiveness of containing a soul
fth 40%, int 30%, will 30%
Restoration...........
wis 50%, int 40%, will 10%

Trades: I will not list every trade I can think of because it will be very long but will give a good list of examples. Max Trade levels are governed by the average of the skills required.

Blacksmith = Armorer + Construction
Jeweler = Armorer + Crafting
Trapper = Woodsman + Mechanical + Crafting
Lumberjack = Botany + Woodsman + Heavy Blunt
Carpenter = Construction + Light Blunt
Furniture Maker = Construction + Crafting + Light Blunt
Camp Cook = Survival + Cooking
Skinning = Survival + Short Blade
Necromancer = Conjuration + Mysticism + Restoration

Have fun thinking up others, you won't be able to stop yourself.

I agree with OP. Both the speed and the luck attributes can be removed.

I don't really care about speed being removed, but luck is a useful and functional attribute.

i think he means luck removes as an attribute it will still be there but u can't increase or decrease it (unless u find enchanted items)

the problem with that is now mages have 3 favored attribute fighters have 2 and rogues have 1. whos more at an advantage? the warrior he can have all his stuff in his two major attributes....



on the other hand. street wise, etiquette, equestrian, outdoorsman, climbing, concealed weapon, (separating daedric and necromancy), no axe, (diplomacy somewhat replacing speechcraft) all seem to be bad ideas......


the actual system is better because theres 2 attributes per specialisation and for the thrid point well just put it in luck... luck is an important aspect of the game and should be maleable to player will while he levels up. seperating agility and speed is not a question of definition its a question of gameplay and balance you have 2 warrior atributes 2 mage atributes 2 rogue atribute and 1 miscelaneous attribute

the miscelaneous attribute is also important for people who want to do a realy specialized character and only want to boost their 2 main atributes they can just put the third point in luck


i personally like the oblivion leveling system, im used to it, it works and thats what im expecting for the next game. i dont think it should be a matter of concern. however Skills are subject to debate

I haven't looked through the whole thread yet so I haven't really looked at all the ideas yet, but here's something I came up with partly out of boredom.


-Combat-

Strength: Blunt, Axe, Long Blade (One-Handed), and Hand-to-Hand
Endurance: Long Blade (Two-Handed), Block, Spear, Armorer, and Heavy Armor
Agility: Marksman, Short Blade, Ambidexterity, Athletics and Light Armor

-Magic-

Intelligence: Conjuration, Manipulative Mysticism and Alchemy
Willpower: Alteration, Destruction, and Restoration
Magical Agility: Illusion, Defensive Mysticism and Unarmored

-Stealth-

Agility; Marksman, Short Blade, Athletics and Light Armor
Magical Agility: Illusion, Defensive Mysticism and Unarmored
Guile: Acrobatics, Security and Sneak

-Universal-

Personality: Mercantile, Streetwise and Etiquette

(Personality is not favored any more or less than any other specialization)

+Benefits of new Attributes+

Magical Agility: Determines ability to evade/defend against spells, effectiveness of long-range spells, and possibly success rate at casting spells. The name is very tentative since it should probably just be one word like the other attributes.

Guile: Not quite sure what this would affect besides the associated skills. Perhaps there could be special situations where you're allowed to use this attribute to get escape from a "sticky situation" or something. I added this attribute mainly to replace speed and create something more closely associated with a "thief" class.

+Descriptions of New/Returning Skills+

Long (one-handed) & Short Blade + Axe: Basically the same as they were in Morrowind, Axe is treated as a blunt weapon in Oblivion, I added it back partly to even out the skills a bit more plus by the logic I used for the distinction between long and short blades an Axe should handle differently and require different training as well.

Long Blade (two-handed): This didn't exist in Morrowind (or any other ES game that I'm aware of). Again, this follows the logic that different types of weapons should require different skills and different training. Part of the skill of using a two-handed sword should be using the sword defensively as well as offensively (whether this is in the player's control or automatic). Technically, I suppose that element of using a two-handed sword is determined by the Block skill.

Spear: Because, like bowties, spears are cool.

Defensive and Manipulative Mysticism: I decided to split it up because Mysticism is kind of a broad school to begin with. Also, stuff like levitation and telekinesis originally fell into the magical school of Thaumaturgy (performing "miracles"), which in Morrowind was merged with Mysticism and replaced with Conjuration. It's split mainly to add something else to the Magical Agility attribute.

Unarmored: I included this mostly to even out the Magical Attributes. I never particularly liked the concept, even though Morrowind classifies it as "Magic", it seems to be more about having a "tough skin". There already magic that allows you to protect yourself without armor so why does there need to be a skill? I guess however it can be useful if you're low on magicka and/or can't enchant your clothing enough to provide sufficient protection.

Streetwise and Etiquette: Daggerfall didn't have Speechcraft, but rather these two skills-which I think are rather interesting. Streetwise allows you to be a bit more crude and would be used for socialization with some lower class types as well as theives and bandits and so on, whereas Etiquette obviously allows you to better communicate with the upper class and political figures. I think this can make dialog and persuasion a bit more interesting and dynamic. You could also create a character who is skilled with both-such as a rogue who grew up on the streets but learned the etiquette of the upper class to con his way into elite social gatherings and converse with "important people".

=Logic Behind the System=

I was mostly inspired by SteveDog's comment about separating out the attributes into categories. However, I also noticed that the "Social" element didn't really fit anywhere-so I separated it so it would really be up to the player whether or not their character would be charismatic or not. From what I see in Morrowind, specialization effects skills rather than attributes-I don't think this should be changed so it's more a matter of organization than anything. The specialization aspect is set up kind of like a ven diagram, where Stealth overlaps with one attribute from Combat and Magic (although Combat and Magic don't overlap at all, so it's an unusual sort of ven diagram lol). On that note actually maybe specialization would have a slight effect on attributes at least in terms of the aforementioned overlap. For instance, normally specializing in stealth wouldn't give you a bonus to Illusion because it's technically magic-in this system it possibly would.

=How Luck Works=

I'd want to try to go with something like Shades proposed, where luck has a smaller range, like 1-10. 1-4 would be considered unlucky, 5 would be average, and 6-10 would be considered lucky. It would be a bit more Fallout-esque, only perhaps balanced in an interesting way so you could create for instance an "unlucky" character, with a random chance of a misfortune occurring to him or her at random times-in exchange you get a few more points to your other attributes. If your character is "lucky", there's a random chance of something good or even miraculous happening to the player but in turn they'll get few points for other attributes. Like in Oblivion, this would also effect betting in the Arena (and perhaps other gambling scenarios if present). 10 luck, however, will probably only give the player a 90% or so chance of winning any bet.

Edit: Forgot to mention, but in this system once you've set up your Luck you're basically stuck with it (although certain potions/items may be able to increase or decrease it to some extent). I feel that luck should be something your character is more-or-less "born" with, it doesn't make too much sense that you can "increase" your luck every time you level up. lol

~Conclusion~

I put this together mostly for fun and out of a bit of boredom. I really don't expect someone from Bethesda will read this and by like "Guys, look at this! It's such a brilliant new approach to our stats system we should scrap whatever we've already come up with and work on implementing this in its place! I don't care if it means we need to change the release date to 12.12.12! We simply MUST use this system!" lol

eh.. nah man i can't bang with this one man. Luck in morrowind determined your chance of getting hit and that was a big deal at some points. It also effects whether or not u'll resist paralysis and wut not. im not sure if thats it in oblivion but im sure. I like the idea of luck. I wuld always adjust my other skills to 100 as fast as i culd then try to get my luck to 70 or so. I like luck especially on morrowind...
And why in the world would you remove speed. Speed effects how quick you attack. Athletics only governs how fast u use up your endurance meter. Speed affects how fast you move. I like to be able to run fast and enhance my speed to run faster. Speed is one of the most important attributes. the main attributes are strength, speed, intelligence, and endurance in my opinion. I think speeds way too important to get rid of. And nobody ever uses luck so we dont realize just how advantageous it is. If you increase it by alot you will notice it makes a real difference.

This is spot on.

No thx ill take oblivion's table over that mess.

Thanks for posting everyone. Rock on you folks who agreed with me. :celebrate:
Archery is the least likely to be an agility skill under dexterity of all things, it really deadens your fingers and you're just holding a high tension line with your glove, which you couldn't even pull back without that strength. Strength would not cover damage, and agility would no more cover the aiming of a bow than it would the aiming of a rowboat. Strength couldn't cover damage because bows are 95% ineffective if you can't nock it. Without the strength in your arms, you might be able to lay on your back or something and use it with your feet, but that doesn't make it more of an agility skill.

Certain specializations might get an advantage if you stand way back and don't consider what skills you're putting into the game and making builds based on those to determine effectiveness. Do that if you'd like with the skills you want in the game, and post them here for us to discuss.

You want to define agility after it's been defined in the thread? that's just stupid. You just want to not change stuff because you don't understand it.

Lol, sorry man, I just really lol'd when I read your post.

We're not kidding anyone. All this stuff was decided long ago. Lucky I've been talking about this stuff in the suggestions thread since awhile back. :thumbsup:

Hey man, I skipped your post after reading this. Mostly because you did the same thing to the original post.

I'm not saying speed can't be a good attribute, it's just that it isn't now and has never been. Come up with four speed skills for us in the thread, I will consider them all. Think of this though, right now athletics is a speed skill that reduces your fatigue loss while running, which means it's a hidden endurance skill by what it does. If athletics instead determined your run and sprint speeds, it would become a far more useful skill under the system and we'd just need to find new homes for acrobatics and light armor under Oblivion's system. I don't think we need armor skills at all, so scratch that off in my book. Acrobatics sounds more like an agility skill to begin with, so it would be more appropriately placed in Agility.

I don't consider personality a mage attribute, I would think they would be the least personable of all the tes character types per say. Maybe you should look at it by how you would set up each of your characters, look at the roguish sort and I think you'd agree they would want some archery from the strength attribute, equestrian, and climbing from endurance, streetwise from personality, concealed weapons, stealth, and theft from agility. If you wanted a warrior with all his skills in strength (all weapons skills) and endurance, you'd have a character who would be a jack of all trades when it came to weapons, but socially handicapped when not conducting diplomacy with a spear. It's no skin off my nose if someone wants to play that way.

I can't even wrap my head around your idea of having 3 mage attributes, 2 warrior attributes, and 1 rogue attribute. I've never consider at TES game of all things that way. Does that make it better then having a trash can attribute? 2 rogue attributes under your way of thinking with 2 warrior and 3 mage attributes? I can't comprehend you thinking that climbing would be a bad skill, what are your thoughts on those skills you disliked? Any specifics on what makes them unappealing? You do know some of those are returning TES skills, not called out of the ether.

I too like the idea of luck. That's why I wrote what to do with it in the original post.

Nobody questioned what speed does or the effect thereof when it is increased. It's nice that you think speed is too important to get rid of, now tell against the points I made what should be done with it. Name the skills.

Lets also combine intelligence and wisdom while we're at it..............
...

Combine them all into Win stat.

this

Why? Explain.

You may want to see http://progressquest.com/

Perhaps you as well, you've been deprived.

http://progressquest.com/

I dont get it

That's alright, everyone else does.

No I mean why does that apply to my sarcastic comment? Please explain

I agree with the OP, as it's always confused me why speed is the attribute that increases movement speed when Agility is basically the same attribute in definition (great movement speed), and athletics takes up the only thing that the Speed attribute had on its own, increasing run speed.

i don't know if you remember playing daggerfall or morrowind, however the luck attribute meant a lot more then just subtle changes if you decided to play as an enchanter or mix potions, with enchanting it helped determine if you failed your enchantment or how much was replenished when you used a soul gem. and with alchemy you actually had a chance to FAIL mixing a potion, thats right, you had the ability to screw up.. in oblivion you never failed.
also with any of the games, your luck attribute when higher would lower the cost of your spells, increase the damage of your spells, increase your chance of critical hits, increase damage of regular hits, increase your chance to avoid critical hits, and much much more, and although all these things may seem subtle, they do have a dramatic impact on the game, go back to oblivion or morrowind and try to play it with 0 luck. you will find the game considerably harder. so i do not agree with removing luck, just because you don't see the effects right away.

i also don't agree with making it so you have to have divine intervention or faith in the church to affect luck, as not all would be brigands or thieves want to pray at the temple every day, and they in general have some dependency on luck as a base skill

as for the speed attribute, having a dodging skill apart from jumping would be nice. and i don't believe it should be removed entirely either, just retooled to be more inline with what it is: how fast your character does things, as the better swordsman doesn't always win the fight.
have it be more integrated with other skills so the higher your speed the faster you can swing that sword or axe. i may not know how it should work exactly but make it more of something you would put points into to speed up your actions, rather then just have base skills that revolve around it.

also the charisma in daggerfall was wonderful, there were soo many different creatures you had the possibility of talking to IF you knew there language, and you could learn the languages of the creatures, thus adding more depth to the game.

Oh, that was sarcasm? It seemed like the kind of suggestion you would make. If it was sarcasm though, I would have thought you'd have explained to me what's wrong with the plan and how you'd have done it better...

Yeah, and the skills were always awkward. I'm sure they'll do something to shore things up either way in the next game, though it's too late to influence them now.

I don't agree with removing luck from the game either, just moving it to better suit character creation. If they decided to tie the skills to the attributes in the next game, luck might just evaporate if they don't save it by employing a method like mine.

Sure, have speed affect how fast your character does things. Now name me four or five skills that mainly depend on how fast your character does things. Not aiming, not fingerwork of some kind, movement that mostly depends on speed.

The problem of having your character swing an axe faster is that being a sprinter shouldn't make your arm muscles strong enough to whip your axe back and forth, to whip your axe back and forth.

Nope
I like to have them seperate for character creation purposes. i.e. an speedy character with little endurance like an archer who can jump high or a heavy warrior character with high endurance for sword swinging but low speed, it just seems nice to have a choice. It sounds as though you want to combine the two which to me would mean less role-playing ability for me.
You may be onto something about luck though, it need to be more apparent what is effecting.
Sorry if i've misinterpreted what you are trying to say.