I'd argue otherwise, especially in terms of explaining stats in games. But even in general, "luck" is often attributed to things happening in someone's favor where they aren't entirely in control of those things, but it's very rare that the person actually has no input (and, in a lot of cases, that input can have a significant effect on the outcome whether or not the person is aware of it).


In the the way the cards are drawn/dice are rolled, like very nearly every RPG that allows the player to gamble with anything other than "I'm betting X amount of cash". Oblivion already did something like this with the arena, and... well, it's kind of obvious.

Poker is not based on luck. If that is how you play it, or see it, then I will tell you there is much you are missing.
much



Additionally, and I mentioned it earlier to a smaller degree, luck should not just be the loot attribute.

Okay, my bad. It's not so much illogical as it is poor gameplay design. I'm referring to the 'major-as-minor' class design that powergamers use to boost their attributes. This refers mostly to how it was implemented in Oblivion, not a problem with the overall system.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Character_Creation#Least_Used_Skills_as_Major_Skills
http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Levelling#The_Leveling_Problem

I never understood the point of the luck attribute. I know, it's from P&P roleplaying, but even there it never made sense to me, and I prefer games that do without such a silly attribute. Luck is nothing you can train or get better in, it shouldn't be on a character sheet :/

As for Speed, I tend to agree too. They could add other, more useful attributes instead (I'd personally like Agility seperated in general agility and agility of the hands, affecting thief-like skills), or just go with fewer attributes.

Right now we have this situation where there are 2 warrior skills 2 thief skills and 2 mage skills. This isn't very interesting at all. I also don't think you're making this much of a challenge, lets go to five!

Looking at Strength and Endurance I'd say they're quite the same actually. One is about how much you can lift, and the other about how long you can keep it up. Their relation is not that different from agility and speed.

To make these choices have consequences, and increase the replay value of the game a player should also be prevented from being able to use all Thief, or all Mage, or all Warrior skills. This also has the benefit of allowing people to mix in a bit of everything.

I've also to chosen to keep names simple.

Strength: Armor, Blunt, Hand to Hand

Agility: Blades, Shield, Sneak, Ranged

Personality: Illusion, Speech-craft, Mercantile, Language

Willpower: Destruction, Restoration

Intelligence: Mysticism, Conjuration, Alchemy, Security

Alteration is gone. Levitation and jump are too much trouble with game design. Water breathing is kinda mystic and feather can be done with restorations fortify strenght spells.

The spectrum of classes this covers:

STR + AGI : Your classic warrior. Mobile fortified area of physical damage.
STR + PER : Your typical hero. Goes in to talk, and if that doesn't work everything is in weapons range. And if that doesn't work there is the stealthy retreat.
STR + WIL : The typical Battle mage or Knight. Mobile fortified area of magical damage.
STR + INT : Your typical Mystical Warrior. Knows stuff you don't and has Oblivion riding in on it's coat tails.
AGI + PER : Classic suave bandit or diplomat. Nuff said.
AGI + WIL : Typical Night blade. Lighting fast action and lightning.
AGI + INT : Sweet talking mage.
PER + WIL : Your typical magical hero. Shoot first, asks good questions later.
PER + INT : Secret Agents, infiltrators, assassins. These guys don't need to sneak.
WIL + INT : Classical mage.

It is based on luck. But it's also based on playing with people who make decisions thinking it isn't.



Power gamers will always be just that. But this is a single player game so you shouldn't account for them. A good system lets you play the way you like and makes it interesting too boot.

So, you'd have the gambling skill determine the character's effective luck?

I wouldn't change the attributes or get rid of them, what I would do is every time you level up you get 3 +5's every level instead of having it based off of how many times you used a skill during the current level.

I'd rather not. Better to have your character's development tied to the actions they actually do.

TES doesn't go for the big three Fighter/Mage/Thief thing except for that breakdown in Morrowind, the big three idea isn't very interesting. I'm somewhat shocked you see the wastebasket attribute as a defiant stand against RPG norms of some kind instead of seeing it as a strange parasite holding back clever design.

You forgot the dictionary quotes! And cross-game comparison I might add.

I'm glad you're suggesting skill lists, but did you really have to put Marksman into Agility again? It's never made sense there, it's more of a strength skill than all the strength skills put together. Swords in Agility is a good observation, though a little more breakout by skill use is needed. Returning Security to Intelligence is problematic for your thief structure you mentioned. Good move on changing block to shield, consider a move of Illusion to Willpower, beware your hyphen key, and reconsider armor skills entirely.

I'm sure someone would go for it.

Though what I was meaning in the original post was that they should revamp it to make it a more prominent feature of character creation and gameplay, instead of (as I often think of it) something left by the wayside.

I'd also say the attributes provide a link in skill gain between the skills contained therein. And while you wouldn't be an expert with another strength weapon if you were good with one, you would have the foundation of talent from the attribute to pick it up quickly.

Todd has proudly touted the system where you gain skill by performing actions with the given skill, instead of something like Fallout where you assign all your points to skills. The next step, it seems to me and some other's I'm sure, is to apply that same system to the attributes instead of letting the TES skill/attribute system straddle two worlds of game design. If attributes increased based on the skills you used, they could take out overall leveling and attribute multipliers entirely. Perhaps this is what he was trying to say.

I think that aspect of luck could be handled with an effect in game.

It's a good name, but calling it mauls is somewhat less... sixually charged... Survival is a good name, and I went back and forth on what to call it.

I can tell you've considered my points thoroughly.

My opinion with is is, keep Luck and dont replace/remove it. The reason that Luck should stay, and have no skill related to it, is because it determinates the events that the player cant control. Think about it. It may seem unrealistic, but there are many situations in the game that the choices in the players skill levelling will influence, but Luck should influence all the things that you cannot get skilled in.

Heres a list that no skill, but Luck should influnce:

. Chances of enemy Injuries (If locational damage is implented).
. Winning the Arena (or other competition) betting.
. Loot recieved from containers and gold on fallen opponents.
. Succesfull harvest of plants.
. Chances that you wont get effected by diseases.

That was what I had to say about this.

There will be some changes to the skills either way, they're fairly fond of changing them every game. Of course I'm suggesting the system I'd like best, but that's because I'm the one suggesting it. If you disagree with some or all of what I put out there, write up your suggestions and we'll go over them.

Someone skimmed the first post very lightly, methinks.

:blink: I have to say, I've never thought of it that way. I'm rather impressed you reached level 87. Generally I'd also like to tie other factors right to the attributes, like health gain should be directly tied to your endurance, with some effect like: Health = Endurance + 100, so the max health is 200. Also if they tied the attribute leveling directly to the skill increases, there would be no need for overall levels. It looks like it's the logical direction for them to head with their system of using skills to increase the skills, they might as well continue.

Rock on. I wouldn't mind changing one to Dexterity and keeping the other if someone could do a good skill layout like that without any attribute being the dumpster. Would you mind putting that together?

I'm glad to be counted among the heretics, for heretics have often been right.

I'm smoking some of that hey re-read the first post. :foodndrink:

Hey man, if you need a fuller definition, I can provide. If you need a better dictionary, forget it. This is a video game we're talking about, not national policy or something serious. :tongue: And luck isn't be removed, it's being moved. I'd agree that agility in the series is addressing how well you move and not how fast you move, but speed isn't addressing how fast you move in the series regarding its skill set.

Speed
-noun
1. rapidity in moving, going, traveling, proceeding, or performing; swiftness; celerity: the speed of light; the speed of sound.
2. relative rapidity in moving, going, etc.; rate of motion or progress: full speed ahead.
3. full, maximum, or optimum rate of motion: The car gets to speed in just nine seconds.
4. Automotive . a transmission gear ratio.
5. Photography .
a. Also called film speed. the sensitivity of a film or paper to light, measured by an ASA or DIN index, which assigns low numbers to slow film and higher numbers to faster film.
b. Also called shutter speed. the length of time a shutter is opened to expose film.
c. the largest opening at which a lens can be used.
6. Slang . a stimulating drug, as caffeine, ephedrine, or esp. methamphetamine or amphetamine.
7. Informal . a person or thing that is compatible with or typical of one's ability, personality, desires, etc.: My speed is writing postcards on the porch while everyone else is tearing around the tennis court.
8. Archaic . success or prosperity.
–verb (used with object)
9. to promote the success of (an affair, undertaking, etc.); further, forward, or expedite.
10. to direct (the steps, course, way, etc.) with speed.
11. to increase the rate of speed of (usually fol. by up ): to speed up industrial production.
12. to bring to a particular speed, as a machine.
13. to cause to move, go, or proceed with speed.
14. to expedite the going of: to speed the parting guest.
15. Archaic . to cause to succeed or prosper.
–verb (used without object)
16. to move, go, pass, or proceed with speed or rapidity.
17. to drive a vehicle at a rate that exceeds the legally established maximum: He was arrested for speeding.
18. to increase the rate of speed or progress (usually fol. by up ).
19. to get on or fare in a specified or particular manner.
20. Archaic . to succeed or prosper.
—Idioms
21. at full / topspeed,
a. at the greatest speed possible: We drove down the highway at full speed.
b. to the maximum of one's capabilities; with great rapidity: He worked at full speed.
22. up to speed,
a. operating at full or optimum speed.
b. functioning or producing at an expected, acceptable, or competitive level; up to par: a new firm not yet up to speed.

Agility
–noun
1.the power of moving quickly and easily; nimbleness: exercises demanding agility.
2.the ability to think and draw conclusions quickly; intellectual acuity.
— adj
1. quick in movement; nimble
2. mentally quick or acute


I can see luck affecting all of that, but in the current place luck occupies, I find it unlikely to change much or be very variable. Choosing it from the beginning allows for greater relevance on your in game choices, and improves the character creation.

i think the attributes should have effects that make sense, like with speed, the higher you raise it, the fast you swing a sword or the faster you can knook an arrow in your bow, or the faster you run or swim.
with strength, you can use heavier weapons with ease and can carry more.
intelligence should allow you pick herbs etc with increased efficency because you have a greater knowledge about what to pull off.

i think this would be a much more immersive attribute system that having the simply "strength makes you better at teh sword an axe hurr huur derp!"

Not entirely what I was getting at. The foundation of poker is not luck.

Well I was going for a slightly flippant, slightly serious, approach and I wanted to see if we can we trim this down further and still keep something that is actually fun to play. Though I admit I did a rather sloppy job.

I suppose I should explain fun to play means for me. I like my games to go in-depth with their stories or leave me the freedom to make my own. The mechanics of it aren't that important as long as I don't have to spend too much time thinking about it, I don't like reading about specific skills too much. That time is better spend on the actual content of the game.

Looking at Mount and Blade I think this is possible to achieve. Though Mount and Blade also has more variables to play with. Perhaps there is an alternate way to decide on skills? Which variables can we influence on a character that are naturally there?

Now I disagree with your assertion that TES doesn't go for the big three. It started in Arena where you pick your class as a mixture of the big three depending on your questions. It is not an exact copy but also not a departure.
I also think it's almost impossible to get away from the big three. When looking at them in an abstract way they can be seen as a focus on overcoming the challenge through direct action, indirect action or avoiding action.

• Direct action is defined by taking action that directly weakens your obstacle and in time removes it. For example, hitting it with a sword or magic.
  
• Indirect action is defined by taking actions that affect something else which in turn removes the obstacle. Think hiring a band mercenaries, conjuring support.
  
• Avoiding action, is just that. You avoid the obstacle all together to get to your actual goal. Think stealth, or diplomacy.

So now the specifics, and I did a rather sloppy job so I'm not going to defend everything.

I think marksman belongs to agility. It certainly takes strenght to draw a bow, especially on the long range. But accuracy becomes a problem at those ranges if you're aiming for anything but an army. So I was thinking of smaller bows, ones that reply more on your body control then body strenght.
Though on principle I agree. I would say that both agility and strenght influence how capable you are with the bow.

As for intelligence for lock-picking and personality for illusion. I tried to divided the big three over three attributes, allowing the player to pick two attributes to focus on. It takes away a bit of synergy but also gives you more options.

For me, luck is the only one I think feels a little misplaced as the kind of attribute it is. I prefer old school dice rolls where you get additional points to distribute, where luck becomes set once and for all. Dice rolls prevents going for luck 10 just because you feel like it.

I think both speed and agility (which I could also call dexterity) works well side by side. Speed is a governing attribute for movement based skill, although encumbrance and fatigue also tends to play a major part (but both of these are derived attributes or effects). Agility/dexterity is how agile you are, typically in doing small stuff. Illusion I think would also be a skill based on agility.

Now, is archery an agility skill? I think so, as it deals with your aiming, which is an ability to control small scale motorics, breath control (like in picking a lock), and a controlled release of the arrow etc. Should strength be ignored? It depends how the system works. Currently it seems that your aim is always perfect, and that skill determines inflicted damage. In my world, strength would cover the damage, and agility the aiming, but then we get the annoyance of not hitting anything at low levels. Pros and cons with both, but I think Bethesda struck reasonable balance here.

Also, for game design purposes, I think it's a wise decision to create balanced tables, like this one:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Skills
Otherwise you might end up with a situation where a certain specialization becomes pure awesomeness compared to the others. In some of the skill lists seen here, this particular property of the table is not satisfied. In my system I have 56 skills for 5 specializations, where the idea is to select 6 major, 12 minor, and 12 misc skills, where the remaining hidden skills are solely based on their governing attribute. Making the table work, is a challenge, to put it mildly Same goes for figuring out nice mastery perks.

Conclusion:
Other than luck, which I feel is out of place as a levelable attribute, I think the rest works out pretty good. The last thing we need is dumbing the game down any further. In fact, I'd want two more specializations, and a lot, and I mean a LOT, more skills. Either in the form of more skills altogether, or speciality skills that show up when you've reached a certain skill level. I.e. athletics as a masterable skill? Naah, let me choose where I want to put my devotion; swimming, jumping, running. Reach high level of jumping, select between long jumps and high jumps.

Speed is how fast you move in gross/straight movements

Agility is change direction / control movement

Dictionary is wrong

Anyway the skill system is a bit wierd in real life your running speed would also be affected by Strength, to a certain extent unless you were so strong and large that you were slowed down by weight

You can't really make it realistic as all the traits would be intertwined

For example... endurance is a form of strength...so I mean that doesn't make sense. I guess we should change the trait to absolute strength.

Turning / changing direction speed isn't even represented in the game that would be agility.

You can't run full speed in the game...

Agility and strength and endurance would affect your proficiency with weapons. Are we going to use endurance as a muscle tiring mechanic? Or are we using endurance just to describe like cardiovascular endurance? I mean some big strong guy might not be able to swing a sword twice a second for forever...

You kind of have to define STRENGTH. It's the most vague term. Because Endurance, Speed, Agility, and Brute/Absolute Strength are all just forms of "Strength." They all have to do with muscles. And the whole agility being a "Skill" well the skill of agility has to do with mind-muscle co-ordination and doing stuff like standing on your head (which would be "agility") and climbing walls has to do with muscle obviously...

why would you want to trim the attributes list? speed and agility ARE different things why combine them? that's just stupid.

Definition: Agility is the ability to move and change direction and position of the body quickly and effectively while under control.

Definition: Speed is the rate or a measure of the rate of motion

I also don't think skills should dictate which Attributes you can raise each level, I have a friend who is a very skilled Fencer but he is also a pretty weak guy.
I think the current system is fine don't take stuff away just because you don't understand it.

I actually have to agree with you on this one.

I was like meh when I read the title but these reasons are decent. As long as agility also governs how fast you run, also I'd be happy with changes similar to these. Also agility should affect how fast you can load an arrow.

And yes Luck should be its own thing or some other system entirely.

And I agree with And Poo the whole attribute being raised should just be maxed out each level, it just leads to unessecary level grinding that no one wants to do.

lets not kid ourselves. both of these attributes will most likely be in tes5. lets just hope LUCK is improved.

I know, but we have to keep ourselves busy to pass the time, and who knows, maybe this will spark a notion in the mind of a developer who can decide about the TES VI's features.

6 attributes makes sense:

• 2 warrior attributes: strength (power), endurance (longevity)
  
• 2 mage attributes: intelligence (power), willpower (longevity)
  
• 2 'stealth' attributes: agility (power), personality (longevity)

Better would still be do be done with this broken split in the 3 archetypes.

I agree with luck as it seems to be quite a mundane attribute. I never saw the point of it and wouldn't ever consider it as a skill. However, your 10 point system I do quite like.

With regards to speed, I would disagree though. I think that whilst on the face of things speed doesn't directly link to light armour etc. it does indirectly as moving in light armour does involve dexterity and speed.

I saw someone earlier mention that their Orc wearing full heavy armour was able to outrun a horse. I don't think that should ever be the case, but I do think that there should be a 50% increase of speed over normal runners at 100 speed.

I think the Kajits should also get a natural 20% bonus for speed as they're of the feline persuasion.

Not too sure about removing them completely, but making them fit better is always a must.

Having an Orc that can jump over city walls while in heavy armor in OB is absurd as well.....