It's funny you say that, because I feel that one of their greatest assets is how disorganized they appear, and yet how shockingly organized they can become when the Hist will it. That would be terrifying to behold - all the Argonians getting "turned on" by the Hist, all at once.

Not really... The Argonians don't have the weapons to fight outside of the Black Marsh against a strong organized army. I would like to see an Argonian infantry army standing on an open field against Cyrodiil cavalry units, or even just a unit of heavily armored soldiers. They would be squashed. The Argonians their strength comes from their terrain and the advantages they have there, in a fight for world domination they would be squashed once they get outside the marshes and that's okay because they don't care. In their homeland however there is no greater fighter.

Of course things could change based on how powerful the Hist can make Argonians but it seems unlikely the Hist will turn them all into the equivelant of a legendary hero...

That totally stood to reason, until we heard about the Argonians charging into Oblivion, imho. All the Argonians, all across Tamriel, felt a call back to black Marsh (that's the terrifying bit) and then successfully charged into the deadlands, effin' up Dagon's forces. I'm not saying that they're capable of world domination, just that they're kinda terrifying.

Oh I agree with that... If I were an army there would be many people I would rather face then the Argonians,but that's crazed up on the Hist which leaves a lot of unknowns, like how long does it last how far can they travel without it fading or a combination of the two, are they just crazed now or still capable of rational thought? We also don't know how many troops Mehrunes commited to the fight there, and what the casualty ratings on either side were.
Also, if the gates in Oblivion are anything to go by then Mehrunes his sphere isn't one that allows for a lot of large scale military battles anyway... But this is all speculation, without the Hist I wouldn't really fear an Argonian army of conquest and with the Hist I probably would, but I'm not sure.
I guess what I'm trying to say in a strange way, is that the Argonians might totally destroy all opposition but there are to many variables to know for sure so I'm kinda thinking of them without the Hist only

The only real evidence we have about the respective strengths of the Empire and the Dominion is that Mede felt pressed enough to sign a humiliating peace treaty which made massive concessions to the Thalmor. Now, this could have been due to domestic problems, Mede could have been a fooled by bad advisors or Thalmor bluffing, etc., but things must have seemed pretty serious. The siezure of the Imperial city, however briefly, must have been a huge blow to morale.

I also think that MinotaurWarrior makes a good point about the difficulty of mounting an offensive campaign versus a defensive one. I think we should qualify that, however, by noting that sustaining a razzah across enemy territory is probably not nearly as difficult in Tamriel as it is in contemporary earth. In fact, the ONLY way for a pre-modern society to keep troops supplied inland in enemy territory (short of magic) is by forage- so if the Dominion can actually equip an army and get it to Cyrodiil, the main problem is the enemy, not logistics (assuming Cyrodiil doesn't look like it did in Oblivion, and actually has farms and people in it). Hammerfell might be a different matter: I can imagine that the Dominion never had much luck beyond coastal areas where troops could be supplied by sea, which would also have been expensive.

As for the Argonians, I think the pertinent question is not what they can do, but what they would want to do. What use would an Argonian, let alone the Hist, have for slaves, subject territories, etc? I can imagine raids for booty, or even wars of extermination to gain new territory, but I doubt the Argonians are really able or willing to build an empire or interfere in the affairs of far-away lands.

You know, for some reason, I'd always just sort of assumed that Tamriel was up to the level where they had depot systems and all that stuff, but I guess you're probably right. My memories of sophmore-year history class and wikipedia say that it was only in the Napoleonic era that any of that stuff even started coming into being. So, yeah, unless the men were taking a scorched earth defense, or poisoning their own goods out of spite, the Dominion probably had it just as easy as the resistance when it came to supply. Taking stuff from peasants isn't much harder than asking for it.

As for what the Args might want, I have this sneaking suspicion that the hist are going to get their revenge upon man and mer for the dawn-era Ehlnofey civil war that sunk most of the Hist forests. It just seems like such a perfect set up for a cheap horror movie plot - the lizard war: revenge of the trees. It'd be like The Happening, except it'd make sense. I really doubt we'll ever see anything come of this for game reasons, but it's been building up in my head sense I first read the Anuad. That, and Peryite is totally planning to become Nirn's first bioterrorist, and he'll be doing it in style.

Argonians. Defensivly, Black Marsh is mostly unconqureable because nature itself murders whatever it needs to. Vvardenfel Eruption or not, the Argonians also did what nobody else has managed - drive far enough into Morrowind to take out the Telvanni. Hopped up on Hist, these lizards are not ones to screw with. Only their race's natural pascifism, disorganization, and the Hist's lack of desire to conqure keeps them in check.

Brace yourselves,

The Sload are coming.

Well, they aren't on Tamriel...

...that we know of...

I'm going to say the Legion. Because myth.

I'm not saying that the argonian army is the best but if you think about it they don't get into conflicts so I guess they would have had years to train a big guerilla style military

Keep in mind that the Legion at this point are streched thin thanks to the Great war.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "because myth". I think you may be referring to the special mythical powers humanity has because humanity is beloved by the heart of the world (Shezzarines and all), but if you meant something else, I'd love to hear it.

Dovahkiin is THE one man army.

Issue with the one-man army is that you can't be in multiple places at the same time.

You're out protecting Markarth? Then we'll just wipe out Solitude. You're in Anvil? Then we'll take Cheydinhal. Etc.

I don't know. The Dominion got pretty far but they took presumably heavy losses in Hammerfell and their main army in Cyrodiil was wiped out. To add to that what they had left spent 5 years fighting further in Hammerfell.

They lost many experienced thalmor warriors/wizards, and a highly prized general. Battlemages and wizards aren't all that easy to replace.

And yes it was a majority of their forces. The hammerfell one was intended to be the location of most of their forces until their successes in Cyrodiil happened.
"In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all."



It really seems like the Thalmor are doing the same tactic they pulled in Rising Threat. They don't really have the forces for what they want to do so they appear intimidating and strike in such force that they seem more powerful than they are. I'd say the Legion is a lot better off than they seem to think. The thalmor are screwing with them like they always have.

There's that, but also because the Legion winning is a better story.

You're right, that was an overstatement. However, they appear to have lost fewer troops than did the empire, which lost significantly more than half its total armed forces. (every legion at < 1/2 strength, some legions destroyed).

As for the ease of wizard replacement... I'd tend to differ with you on that. Admittedly, we don't have fantastic sources for this stuff, but the general impression one gets of Alinor is that it's a land filled to the brim with wizards and potential wizards, and when it comes to training them, again, we don't have fantastic sources (AFAIK), but Tamriel seems to generally treat low-magic (fireballs and whatnot) as a skill like any other. You don't need to meditate on a mountaintop with a mystic mentor for twenty years (that's only for the crazy stuff), you just need a teacher. The Thalmor reliance on specialized wizard troops (which, AFAIK, is just something we're all assuming they do) probably shouldn't make it that much harder for them to re-man their armies.


You're right. I had forgotten about that, but that still doesn't mean they lost the majority of their forces. The only city that was taken from them was the IC. They were also occupying Braviil and Leyawiin, and most likely were preforming some operations in the hinterland. You're right that the majority of their invasion forces were in Cyrodiil, but only a portion of those were in the IC, and only those forces actually stationed in the IC were killed.

So, the majority of the majority of their invasion forces were killed (>1/4 total invasion forces), they certainly suffered some notable losses at the broken sieges of Hammerfel, and of course must of sustained normal loses as part of their standard operations throughout the war (nothing is accomplished in war without some loss of life). It's harder to put a figure on the total portion of the Dominion forces lost (compared with doing the same for the Empire), but I'd be willing to say that anywhere from 1/3 to 5/12 of their invasion forces seems reasonable. It should also be noted that the Dominion must have had a home guard, especially considering their apparent militaristic governing style, though I imagine this was definitely less than half of their total forces, and perhaps as low as 1/8, though these figures are based on absolutely nothing, as I've never really studied the details of any non-legendary sword & shield era military campaign, and how much defense was allowed for during an offensive.


What gives you that impression?


Oh, I guess I had forgotten to mention this aspect of my take on the situation: I think humanity is certain to prevail, or, at least, the Thalmor are destined to falter. The games really can't continue to get made if the Thalmor achieves all its goals, so the Thalmor really can't win. Plus, they're clearly set up as the villains of the story, and, well, villains tend to lose. Similarly, another argument for why the Dominion is stronger might be that villains always start the story more powerful than the heroes. In New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader and the Empire are clearly more powerful than Luke and the Rebel Alliance. It's only at the very end that the good guys become powerful enough to stand up to the enemy. Otherwise, it makes for a damned boring story.

Taking from peasants is probably easier than asking for it, unfortunately. There were periods during the 'military anarchy' (currency collapse, constant revolt and usurpation) of the 3rd Century when the Roman state was probably indistinguishable from the marauding warbands it was providing 'protection' from. This is how I imagine the Empire at the end of the Great War, actually.

Slightly OT, but I believe the Romans are suppsed to have had depots, as did Europeans by the 17th Century, so it's perfectly concievable that the Empire and the Dominion do. The problem is that horse-and-wagon transport is so pitiful that these have to be stocked up long in advance of the arrival of an army, which effectively limits them the friendly territory. Van Creveld's 'Supplying War' is a decent source on this kind of thing, if you're interested.

Apparently even the thalmor don't get many high ranking wizards. The embassy thalmor soldiers make up the majority of their force there and complain about how the wizards treat them.

Apparently the remainder of the thalmor forces outside the city couldn't break through part of 1 legion.
"Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks. By the fifth day of the battle, the Aldmeri army in the Imperial City was surrounded."

The empire's forces were spread thin at this point. All the thalmor had to do would be to gather a sizeable force and hit the outer ring of troops somewhere. But all that was ever sent were small detachments. It seems like it was their only attempt to try to weaken them for an escape route because the IC army tried just that, but didn't make it. If the thalmor happened to have a decent amount of troops in Cyrodiil not in the IC at that time, there would've been no empire.

The empire is still standing. Even with all the intel the thalmor justicars and enforcers have been gathering for 25 years.

I liked how this went from what country has the best military to talking about the great war. I might as well get my two cents in.

All the thalmor footsoldiers have a weight of 1 assigned to the restoration skill, and spend 1/5 their stat points on magicka. They're all magic-users, just not "wizards." The stormcloaks & imperial forces have no magic skills, and assign no stat points to magicka.

This point also says nothing about the difficulty of training wizards.

The bolded part is the exact opposite of the truth. All of the empires forces were concentrated for the BotRR (though other human forces remained in other areas).

The italicized portion makes perfect sense, when you consider that the BotRR was a surprise attack that only took five days. It takes more than five days to gather your troops into an big solid army.

Dude, what do you expect? That the stronger force, the winner, is just going to go straight from facing a full-strength enemy to completely destroying them? That's just not the way things work. By the standards some people seem to have, the British Empire was just a joke because it never destroyed its old enemy France, and the CIA is over-hyped because dictators and communists are still around after the US decided it didn't like them in the 1900's. I think there might be a skewed perspective going on here because of recent military history. WWI, WWII, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Falklands, et cetera, were freakish exceptions to the way war usually goes. Unconditional surrender almost never happens. Destroying the enemy state almost never happens. Most victories don't entail winning everything. That doesn't stop them from being victories.

Imperials make the perfect ground forces. They make one of the best melee infantry / knight type build and also make the best battlemage for support.

Heavy armor, one handed (I use mace or sword) with shield. All enchanted as Imperial get bonus in enchanting.

For a battlemage they get the heavy armor but also destruction and restoration. They can throw fireballs for range and support or heal the troops.

The only thing that the Imperials lack is good archers. I guess they'll have to import them or rely on destruction magic for range.

Other races may be good in a hit and run and may do well in a smaller conflict but not necessarily a full on battle.

I wouldn't use game stats to say no stormcloak/imperial wizards or all altmer know magic. Learning magic means learning the mindset of each. For some learning magic is even impossible. Some people are better suited to restoration, others illusion, and so on and so forth. Hence why you only tend to get trainers of one skill.(Unless we're talking morrowind where they'll teach you up to their 3 best skills) Some people are suited to one school more than others but are still mediocre in ability. The battle of red ring took out a lot of the destruction suited ones.(Possibly restoration types too) Even then, with what we've known from each game, it takes MANY years for them to reach a respectable level of competance. This is of course leaving out the PC who is always wildly adept at magic.

You do realize how large the imperial city is right? They had to form a ring around that. That's a dangerous manuever that spreads your forces thin. So long as there aren't enough outside forces or the enemy doesn't make a sudden surge at a weak spot, you should be fine but if they do manage to break your line, you run into some serious issues.


What you're suggesting is that the thalmor had a larger force waiting in reserve that hasn't been utterly exhausted by battle like the empire(Who dropped down to less than half its forces with a smaller army than this reserve that's waiting around), and decided not to crush the empire and take the IC with it. You know the heart of mankind. You're confusing your own points. Either the main army is the majority of the thalmor forces in cyrodiil, or it isn't.