Not really. I'm currently working on additional quests but the idea to add those came up afterwards, the original mod has all of the quests that were planned at the time in it.

Kragenir's Death Quest was already as big as it is now when it was first released.

However I should mention that the key to its succes is that it grew bigger over time, even if nothing was released. At first there was only going to be a main quest. Now there's tons of side quests, books, rural dialogue, etc. We kept adding new stuff and it ended taking almost 3 years before the mod was released. When I started I didn't expect it to take over a year. Had I known from the very start how big it would eventually get I probably wouldn't have started it.

But I don't regret it one bit.

Many years ago I wrote a small doc on tips for volunteer projects that is probably applicable to this;

http://minkirri.apana.org.au/wiki/OrganisationTips

In particular one problem I can imagine is the whole toolset for modding doesn't seem to lend itself to distributed development. In the software world there are distributed version control systems that allow people to share patches around, allowing people to work collaboratively on the same files at different times in different places. It is not easy to do this when working on *.esp and *.esm files in the CS.

Without decent distributed development tools, doing a big project will require very careful partitioning of the project between team members and delaying integration of those components as long as possible... because once you merge them you are probably doomed to serial development passing the file around rather than parallel development.

I have started version controlling my mod projects in mercurial with simple python tools that extract scripts from *.esp files so I can diff changes between different versions, but this is a far cry from being able to do branch/merge/diff/patch type operations on *.esp files. At one point I looked at wrye-bash and I believe it could be used to create a binary diff/patch/merge tool for *.esp files... once you have that you can tell mercurial to use it giving you full branch/merge support for *.esp files which would be awesome. I posted here suggesting it once but there didn't seem to be much interest.

quote name='TheMagician' date='Dec 7 2009, 10:38 PM' post='15399104']
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If you are just starting out and you are planning a large-scale mod, I recommend you start with a small core that is well-designed and fleshed-out and build from there, such as a single town and a single large quest. Creating vast landscapes of empty wilderness has proven time and again to lead to vast landscapes of empty wilderness. [/quote]

This seems like the obvious answer, build a small town or village, a single quest, a dungeon, and then expand. But, I think this is incorrect. Assuming your Total Conversion, or new province mod has any ambition at all other than being just a cut and paste of Cyrodiil you are going to need a lot of unique assets. New architecture, new vegetation, new dungeon tile sets, new clothes, new armour, new clutter, furniture etc. So your small scale core mod has already turned into a major project because you have a huge number of assets to create. This seems to be (I'm no modder) one of the most difficult skills to master, there's very few in the community that have the skill and artistic flair to create the necessary models.

I'm sure people like Lady Nerevar and Phitt would agree, once you've got the assets you can use them repeatedly, but being in a position to even create one small village is a major challenge.

Of course Iliana didn't have this problem because she made the decision at the outset to use pre made modders resources, and this has worked well in her case. I think I'm right in saying that she has also reaped the benefit of other major mod efforts that may never see the light of day, but ctreated the resources she has used.

In fact, in retrospect, it seems to me incredible that it took so long for the Elseweyr region to be filled in. After all, the land is already there (mostly), it connects nicely to Cyridiil on two sides (With the natural barrier of the sea to the south), and, as Iliana spotted, it's surrounded by hills, allowing a natural transition from Cyrodiil. It was just crying out to be added to the game. Still, I suppose a lot of things are obvious in hindsight.

While I rambling, a further unrelated thought, it strikes me how many of the uber modders currently adding to the TES4 experience are female, Iliana, Lady Nerevar, Shezrie/Meek, Ismelada Lasombra (spelling?) TheNiceOne. (I think), Whoguru. Apologies if I've got your gender wrong, and if I've missed any other obvious ones. The percentage of top modders who are female must bear no relation to the male/female ratio of those that play the game.

You are right, or at least that's how I guess the creators of such mods think - and that's their bane. It is possible that I have forgot a mod or two, but I cannot think of a single TC/new province mod based on mostly new architecture/vegetation/tile sets etc. that has been even close to completed.

I think the "Start small" suggestion is even more important for such a mod. Especially when it is impossible to create the first part without first creating the necessary resources, starting off small is vital. Start off by creating the assets for one dungeon and then release the first version when this one dungeon is created, or whatever. By not working this way, it is all too easy to be burned out before the mod is finished.

But then again, I have no experience in this type of mods, so I might be babbling. I do know however, how vital it was that I started off small with both Enhanced Economy (as Gold Adjustment) and Map Marker Overhaul (as Map Marker Renamer), got the first feature to work in a release before adding the next.

I'm a male (though a nice one ). No offense though, as I like females very much (living with my wife and my two daughters).

Sorry TheNiceOne, I'm sure I've seen you referred to as a 'she' before. Anyway, at least I got my apology in early.

A note about custom resources and mods that require tons of them:

there are very few people who can churn out large amounts of complex, oblivion-level models (such as a a whole architecture set). I could probably count them on one hand (and certainly could on two). There are plenty of people who can make smaller stuff, make less complex stuff, or make only certain types of models. while these people do/can contribute to large mods, they are not very useful in the grand scheme of things. The large mods that manage to produce tons of models are those which are lead by modelers (such as Phitt's Sheogorad of Destiny or Razorwing's Silgrad Tower). This does not make them automatic successes, but it does solve their modeling problem.

I can only see this getting worse for TES5. Morrowind modeling was pretty basic, but now we have all these different maps to make and fancy collision and stuff. god only knows what sort of technology TES5 will make use of, but i can guarantee that it will be much harder to produce a equivalent models/textures.

That's true, but maybe Beth will bring an easier way to do them, alongside with the increase of detail....

...or am I just being optimistic?

extremely optimistic. as technology advances more and more knowledge (and skill) will be needed to make realistic models and textures, creating a higher learning curve for aspiring artists. if (or rather when) beth incorporates more 3rd party software, such as speedtree and havok, legal problems might prevent us from touching certain parts of the game at all.

With our luck they'll probably use ZBrush for all their models.



The future will consist of developers coming up with an idea for a game, pitching it to producers, and coming to fans to produce the content once they get the green light.

Waiting on custom assets has been the death of many a large mod.

Face it, if you are just starting out, expecting to produce a dump-truck full of custom assets is simply unrealistic. I think it's better to give players something tangible, even if it seems like a bit of a rehash, as long as it is evident that you have done your best to use existing assets creatively. Players will appreciate a good retex or an original use of an existing asset in-game over a screenshot of a custom asset they never get to play with. And many won't know about the free assets already floating around created by other modders which you can incorporate into your mod. By all means, produce original content when you can, but don't hold up production on it. Professionals can afford to do so because they get paid to do it. Amateurs working in odd hours on too little sleep don't have the same resources. And besides, you will be rewarding other modders who have devoted long hours to producing these free assets by using them.

Consider as well one advantage that modders have over professionals: the ability to constantly revise the same game/mod. You can always make a town with existing assets and then gradually switch them out over time with later releases. This is what we do, afterall, when we mod. Of course there will be hiccups, but players using mods expect those and are generally fairly tolerant.

If you are planning a total conversion with all (or mostly) custom assets, you should already be very familiar with the modeling/texturing/sound design process and confident of your ability to produce these assets so there won't be a large delay between conception and application. The short answer is: don't plan to make a huge mod like this unless you already know you can do it.

And passion helps, too. If you aren't passionately committed to completing it all by yourself, don't bother starting. Go find out what your passion is, first.

Ummmm, hey Critterman, have you seen all that the MERP team has been up to since you left?

We've also been doing interiors, modeling (be they structures, weapons, and armor), texturing, and even starting script work for the main questline. There's a lot of development going on that non-team members aren't even made aware of

The biggest problem I find with a TC mod like MERP is finding DEDICATED members. Members will work on what they have to no matter what it is if they're trully dedicated to the project. Its those members that have visions of grandeur or too lazy that get nothing done on the project. Also its always been in MERP that as long as that even if a member of the team only contributes ONE landscape and leaves the team, that's still one more landscape to go towards completion. MERP will take anyone willing to help or even those who are willing to learn more. A few members on the team knew NOTHING about the TES Construction Set coming in, and yet now they've learned how to use it and have made beautiful landscapes.

Speaking of waiting for custom assets, is it possible to just use Vanilla stuff to get the mod done, and then add the custom stuff when you finally get hold of it?

Well at the moment we ARE reusing a lot of Oblivion resources (terrain, trees, buildings, etc.). I think the biggest thing we'll want to change when we get the time is to make more unique buildings.

i don't really see the issue here, that's pretty much saying that "No-one will play Dragon Age becasue they can't access Neverwinter Nights gameplay" ^^ A TC will of course be treated as 2 different games, and I doubt anyone would choose; they'd just play both! ^^

1. What you describe here are two different games. Oblivion, either if a TC is present or not, is one game. While very mod savvy users can get multiple versions of Oblivion running, for the average mod user it will likely be too difficult. Simply because it is a lot more complicated than installing the game at two different places, which (due to the way Oblivion handles things) won't work. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, try it out. Only way to have multiple Oblivion's running is to either edit back and forth the registry, or play a multiple folder rename game whenever you want to switch.

2. A TC that blocks off Vanilla content blocks off Vanilla + modded content. To find players it must not only be at a quality that can stand it's ground against Vanilla, but at a quality that can stand it's ground against modded Oblivion (to the posters who claimed "but some mods will work in a TC environment!": Go visit the Unique Landscapes from there. Or fight Lord Volmyr of OOO. Or do the Stranded Light quest line. Or just aquire any new spells of any magic mod!). This is a task beyond the impossible. So it's not a comparison about games on a somewhat comparable quality. If I have to choose to play Oblivion or Gothic 3, guess what I take?

3. Users (rightfully) expect that mods expand the game, not exchange it. It's like no one expects to install a NWN 1 module and suddenly have only Dragon Age playable. Just to keep in your anology, because that's what TCs do to the game.

I am curious about this TC concept: How about a replayable mod?

By replayable, I mean every time you play it from start, things go a little different, and always challenging.
Say, a new worldspace where you have to overthrow the local tyrant and it takes a couple of hours (real time).

If this mod is a Provincial mod, it would be impossible (immersion-wise) to replay it (after all, you have already killed the bad guy).

As a TC, the player could play it as many times as she wishes, (pretty much as one replays a strategy game over and over. . . or Pac-Man, for that matter)).

Actually, this is the only TC advantage I can think of, at first glance.

As a professional Project Manager, I could not agree more with this point. Before you open the Construction Set, before you make one single change to anything, make a project plan, a scope statement, something, anything that describes what you plan to accomplish, how you plan to accomplish it, what resources you will need to accomplish it, where your skills meet the needs and where they are lacking, how you plan to fill the skill gap (convince others to help, which means less control of the final product, or train yourself, which means more time to get the project done), and a timeline with milestones to accomplish tasks.

A timeline and set of milestones are key for two reasons: 1) they give you a realistic report on your progress, showing areas that are falling behind and perhaps need to be revisited, and 2) they give you a sense of accomplishment, making it more likely that you will stay interested particularly on larger projects.

I've made several small personal mods, mostly mods to mods, to fit my own preferences and needs, but am now embarking upon a much larger project which I plan to release to the public. The sheer scope of the project is overwhelming just thinking about it, but it becomes much easier to get my head around as I develop the plan breaking the whole project into smaller work packages, which individually are much easier to accomplish. I'm also leveraging off of the work of other modders -- why reinvent the wheel when you can just tweak it?

The bottom line is, the more time you spend up front in planning the project, the less time you will spend floundering trying to figure out what comes next, and the more likely that your project will get done.

My 2 bits, anyway. :blink:

-RMWChaos (aka Fallen)

Well, as you said bg, a TC in Oblivion would be more or less Oblivion in another world. I don't see why I'd need to keep seperate versions of Oblivion in that case then: I'd just disable everything but the TC when playing it, and then re-enabling the other when playing standard.

Or is there some aspect of creating a TC in Oblivion I'm missing here? Would it be possible to actually separate the "mod" from the other game completely (as in two different programs), and would it even be neccessary? O.o

I'm not very involved in these types of projects, so you're free to prove me wrong, but it just seems so simple. Feeling like a bit of TC? Enable it =)

I was able to finish my huge cake but I was a bit nauseous afterwards. :yuck:

Total Conversions take too long to make...at least that's my opinion. If I was a modder making a TC, I would get bored real fast.

1. You're making this more complicated than it needs to be. You're equating the term 'total conversion' with something a little stronger than I intended when I mistakenly broached the subject. A 'new world conversion' is adequate, with gameplay altered by mods; ie. Oblivion in a new world. That's all I meant, originally, perhaps with some optional plugins that affect gameplay, but which could be switched out with other mods according to your preferences. There is no other way I would attempt to create a 'tc' in Oblivion. It would be pointless and counterproductive. I am working on a new world and this is exactly how I'm doing it.

2. The loss of content that affects the vanilla worldspace is not a significant concern. There is nothing preventing a new world modder from creating environments every bit as good as UL. UL is simply filling a content void left by Bethesda which any decent landscape modder should be able to accomplish. (Not to knock the UL modders, who are very good, simply to say that Vanilla environments are empty for practical reasons, not owing to a limitation inherent in the engine.) A new world conversion does not have to be 'as good' (meaning: as heavily modded) as Vanilla + mods in any case. I, for one, have never been a fan of the ES universe and mythos and would be happy to play in a world with a spirit more congenial to myself, even if it means I lose out on a few little touches. Atmosphere, mood, lore, races, and story arcs are equally valid forms of modding.

3. Creating a new world is expanding the game. By one world. Full stop. (Besides, I wouldn't want to change the game too much because there really isn't any other game like it and my single biggest gripe is the world and its lore. The game itself (Vanilla gameplay + mods) is awesome. Who'd want to sacrifice that? I just want to use these great gameplay mechanics in a world of my choosing.)



Done and done. This is how I use my mod.

My custom world uses Ampol's textures, Storms and Sound, Animated Window Lighting System and Chimneys, RPG-BlackDragon's Trees, and Mr Siikas' animals and looks amazing using Ampol's Low ENB settings. My custom races use throttlekitty's head06 resource which I use in conjunction with Robert's male and female body mods. I'm currently using Deadly Reflex, Abo's realism mods, and about a half-dozen other realism/immersion/magic overhaul mods and everything works flawlessly together. Good enough for me, and as close to a total conversion as I need and most people want. If I'm missing out on a couple of other major mods like UL and OOO/Frans/etc., I can always just mod it in myself, using these other excellent mods as a guide.

This still doesn't explain my original observation about the surprising lack of custom world mods for a mod community the size of ours, with the its massive support for mods, engine flexibility, and the fact that the game is a fantasy RPG. By all rights, I would expect the Oblivion modding community to be actively supporting at least a dozen major new world mods in various stages of completion. As it is, the only ones that get support are the provincial mods, which are great, but unfortunately still set in Tamriel. :rolleyes: People have a knee-jerk response to TCs and discount them before they even have a chance to get started. That, my friends, is what we call a self-fulfilling prophecy.

@ richardrocket009: That's probably the real reason why more don't get made. It's a good thing I love landscaping.

If that is what you like...go for it!!!

Again, what you're describing here are not total conversions. It's like calling a dogsled a car, and then wondering why others are surprised to read that the ancient inuits drove with cars over the ice :blink:.

What you're describing are simply mods featuring new landmasses. There are a lot of those. (Unfortunately there is a certain dissonance between a lot of landmass mods and quests. Often you've got great new landmasses, but not many - if any - quests. Example given Nascosto Island).

I agree. As I mentioned in my first response, I was a little loose with my terminology because I didn't expect a response and for most people 'total conversion' = new world (new landmass overshoots in the opposite direction, since to me it doesn't communicate the idea that there are new races with distinct cultures and lore). http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=983048&hl=, however.

I have worked on extremely large projects over the years, from making the city of Waterdeep for Sojourn/Toril MUDs in the 1990s, to building entire-new star systems for Freelancer in early 2000s, and now to a Fallout 3 project that I just crossed the one-year mark on (about 9 more months to go). I agree with alot of what has been said here, but a few points are worth mentioning.

At the end of the day it really comes down to determination, commitment and (some) planning. How much time you can invest into A project (any project) really depends on how commited and determined you are to finish it, much moreso than planning. Large, complex project plans are most effectual when working with a Team of modders (3-4+, usually 6-12+) - in which activities Must be planned or coordination breaks down and chaos ensues.

The story is very different for a single, determined modder - where we are more like authors of a grand novel versus a team of coordinated workers. With singular mods I find it more personally successful to develop a high-level plan in the beginning, to cover the basic structure of the mod and the main theme or ending encounters that the player will face. From there, much like how Steven King writes his stories, I let the mod flow through towards those objectives day-by-day.

Burn-Out deserves its own reference, as it is the single-largest killer of mod projects (in any game past and present). Whether it be a real-life home constraints, work constraints, education/college constraints, love constraints, kid constraints - it seems at times like the real-world conspires against modders to make it as difficult and challenging as possible. It is Very Easy for modders to walk away from a project forever and not feel guilty about it, as the real-world always comes first. This is why, to me, it is just as important How you spend time modding on a big project as it is the work you do. Some days I work on level-design, some days scripting, some days modeling - and I keep rotating through the disciplines to keep from burning out or getting board. Very different from following a rigid project plan for one person, the goal should be to Not Burn Out more than anything else.

I also tend to watch Some movies, listen to lots of podcasts and audio books and the like to keep from getting bored in the more laborous parts, and when I get stuck on something I will devote only so much time to it before "firing" that thing or moving onto something else to get some space - which tends to prevent me from getting stuck in a rut on one particular problem. The key goal is to avoid getting frustrated enough that you turn-away from the mod to do something non-mod related. Instead I'll switch to another discipline (moodling to scripting, scripting to level design, etc) and put on a new flick - which usually does the trick.

So in my experience;

1. Have a good High-level (not too detailed) plan for the mod - enough to keep you going, where smaller details can get filled-in as you work that area.

2. Avoid frustration and burn-out by switching between disciplines often and especially when you get stuck on a difficult challenge.

3. Don't stay stuck in the mud! These forums are stuffed-full of good people who like to help - there is no shame in posting for help on a problem and moving on while waiting for feedback.

4. Determination, Determination, Determination is the key. If you don't have a Passionate desire to see the big project through to the end, don't start and frustrate yourself.

5. Modularize the work if you have any doubts about finishing - such that you can build one "part" and release that as a stand-alone mod if time runs-out.

Luck!

Miax