This is a discussion thread about, you guessed it, your ideas about the best way to make huge mods, also known as Provincial Mods, ala Hammerfell, Morrowind, Valenwood, etc....

I just want to start out by saying that I think Iliana and her team have found the correct way in getting it done...doing a little at a time and having updates every few months or so. I am totally amazed at their work.

I lately put this into my troubles.txt:

Issue: Wanting to start a big project and expecting people to help.
Underlying problem: Chances are, no one actually able to mod will join. Sorry for being so blunt.
Cause: Most big projects horribly fail. Few get finished. Time is a limited resource, and most modders will only spend time - if they even have any available! - on projects likely to see the light of the day. While most modders use their own reasoning if they judge a project to be possible or not, there are however several "hard" indicators that most modders look at. These are track records (what did the project starter do before?) and signs of progress (what has the project starter already created?). Additionally some more subjective indicators exist, which also play important roles (like e.g. what they think about the idea, the project starter, the possibility, etc). Most importantly there is one thing to keep in mind, and that is if no infos are given, or the infos given show a lack of understanding of modding possibilities, chances are very small that anyone will contribute.
Solution: If you want a big project to succeed, be willing and able to do everything yourself if the need arises. This also means making heavy use of available resources. Modder resources exist for this very reason. And if you want that people join your project, show both progress and give enough informations. Putting it bluntly, knowing what you can do and work with it is what separates successful projects from many failed attempts. If you go forward, people are likely to help and expanding your possibilities. If you expect people to make the first step however, you're in for a long wait.


I've underlined everything that's helpful / necessary imho.


For the record, when it comes to quest mods I made very bad experiences with episodic development.

I wonder why that is. It appears to work well for many projects. Doesn't Kragenir's Death Quest do it like this?

richardrocket, you mention Iliana's Elsweyr. I think one of the most striking things about this project is how much the people here trust Iliana. He/she updates regularly (the mod and the threads here), seems to work on it constantly. Always addresses questions and bug reports. Never disappears. You know it's not vaporware because it's already released. It's a toy you can play with now and that's makes it real. You have a 100% guarantee it's not vaporware. I remember a discussion a few months back as to why single-person mods are more attractive to people than team mods. This is the ultimate reason: you have a person whose judgment you trust (won't blatantly contradict lore or put something in the mod that's in poor taste), a clear authority to go to and can communicate clearly. You know the person is organized and you won't be contributing for nothing. Productive people like a leader, a center of gravity, and don't feel threatened by one. I personally feel that if someone can convince me that "this is going to get done with or without you, so help or don't, whatever", that is the mod I would want to be involved in.

Another factor is not biting off something that's obviously too much to chew. I tend not to trust these mods that say "this is going to be true to lore and be 10 times the size that cyrodiil is in-game". If it's too much work for Bethesda, how are one or two landscapers going to do it? Even if you calculate that you could finish it in two years at your current working capacity, that's putting a lot of faith that the amount of free-time available to you won't change. I think Silgrad Tower is a mod that is doing fairly well but even they haven't finished landscaping the large area they generated.

If the modders grow tired of their own storyline and quest it is likely that there won't be more episodes. That is why episodic content tends to work shamefully bad.

I think a clear and concise post like this and some of the replies should be stickied... but then again... who's going to read those?

*Looks at MERP*....................

:D

MERP's doing pretty well

there IS no "best way." there are a hundred different ways, and each team (or modder) has to find what works for them. in the end, it boils down to two things: dedication and ability.

dedication is pretty obvious. are you willing to devote thousands of hours to working on your mod? are you willing to fix errors, deal with organizational issues? are you willing to work when people dont seem to have interest in your mod?

ability is more iffy. first of all, you have to know what you are personally able to do. Illiana couldnt model, so she(?) used modder's resources to build her province. if you cant make exteriors you probably shouldnt be trying to make a province mod. you can of course try to recruit people, but never, ever depend on anyone helping you. realistic goals are everything.

there are of course plenty of other factors. organization is a big one, you cant just start in the middle of a landmass with no clear plan of where youre going. you also have to have some basic idea of how the community functions in order to keep up faith in your project and hopefully attract people who want to help. time management is vital.

First of all, you've got to be passionate about your project. If you are not passionate about it, you are doomed to give up eventually.

The second point is independence. Being dependent on a bunch of other people is like a brick of cards. You never know when this one person in a group will give up because he'll become bored, and the whole project may go bye bye. Make use of the existing resources. It is fine if other people help you, but you've got to be able to do it yourself.

And the last point, i would say make a plan. This is a mistake i made, actually. Always know exactly how much time are you planning to invest into your mod, make a plan. Calculate. Otherwise, you may start making a mod, and it will grow bigger and bigger, and the time of completion will become longer, until you realize you've made a huge cake you can't chew anymore.

Actually, no. It doesn't. At least not for quest mods. It works however great for landscape mods.

First lets get this out of the way:
KDQ is not episodic. It was released with ~50 quests, and is still around ~50 quests.

That's hardly episodic.

I've released a quest mod in episodes. Started with 12 quests, working upwards to > 60 quests with about ten quests in each update, then called it finished while secretly sneaking in more updates. However why did I call it finished then?

Usually after each release 90% of all comments consisted of just telling me why they won't play the mod. The majority essentially said "I won't play it until it's finished", that's said to a mod already available with a lot more quest content than, say, Shivering Isles. Luckily this has changed since I've called it "finished".

Imagine spending hundreds of hours into something, like e.g. a whole guild to play with a finished storyline, and then it won't find any player. Imagine being told while you churn out episode after episode that no one is going to play your mod, because it's not "finished". Even if there are currently not even any loose threads open. Even if the pure playing time already available surpasses Shivering Isles. You end up with like three players. Great.

It may have been different back then in the days of Gates to Aasgard and similar, but today if you do episodic quest mods, you're pretty much guaranteed to have nearly no players. All positive side effects you hope to get through episodic releases pretty much vaporize through this. Instead even the opposite can happen, that you get the strong feeling no one will play your mod.

Was my mod an exception? I don't think so. I've seen the same happening to plenty of episodic quest mods, most modders however gave up instead of finishing what they started.

My advice: Even if you do episodic development for a quest mod, don't tell anyone! People will love you if you expand your mod. Though if they expect it to be expanded in the future, they won't play it. Simply, sad maybe, but a workaround.

I think a good idea for team project is to cycle positions. While one modder works on a certain landscape area another can work on... say quests. Then after a certain amount of time, maybe a week or two, the two will switch positions and work on a new area of the mod. I think this is important because it keeps the mod fresh in the eyes of the modders. I know from experience that working on one large aspect of the mod can get boring and monotonous after a long period of time. Since it is absolutely crucial that every modder is constantly inspired about the mod, then this process might help with keeping them interested.

The only problem is that one modder doesn't know every aspect of modding, one modder may be more proficient at making scripts than landscaping and vise versa. That's why the modders need to be able to communicate with each other in an easy way. That way, each modder can teach each other how to mod certain things, so in a sense, each modder will become a jack-of-all-trades and will be able to switch between positions with ease. Though, if a modder just absolutely cannot mod a certain thing then he can opt out of getting that position when it comes time to switch.

I wish one mod will implement this way of modding, just so I can see if it actually works, not just in theory.

I also believe that if it is a large TC where there are many towns to be built, then the modding team should pick a certain town/region to flesh out then start by landscaping, then place enemy spawns, then pathgrid, then start to build the town, then add npcs and factions, then make quests, and finally put the finishing touches on the town/region. So pretty much mod only one small part of the TC then release the demo of that town/region. This, I believe will improve moral a lot. It will:
1. Create publicity for the mod.
2. Get more people to join the modding team.
3. Increase the moral of the modding team, because now the have a finished product to show.
4. If the mod does go under, at least there is something playable to show for all the hard work that was put into it.

Merp right now is landscaping everything, the entire middle earth... I just don't believe this is the way to go, eventually the modders will get bored of landscaping the same regions and leave (as I did -_- ).

The best way to make huge mods is to split that huge mod into small bites, mod each of those to perfection, and then release them one at a time. All the while keeping the modders' interests in the mod as high as possible.

I tend to agree with you Critterman. It's great to have an amazingly huge world and have someone pick an entire continent to mod, but that just isn't going to get done... Focusing on a manageable area and getting it finished is the way to go.

Critterman, you have some good concepts.

I think many people would have to learn about the actual most succesful "Province mod" avaliable..."Elsweyr: Deserts of Anequina".

The morality behind it is that by making it somewhat modular, and periodically releasing updates as you work in them maintains pretty hot the expectation of the mod.

This would make a good topic for an article for that modder's magazine that might or might not see the light of day.

But I would approach it a little differently: interview 5 or 6 modders/mod teams who are authors of successfully released largescale mods. Ask each of them how they did it.

For extra spice, track down a few authors of failed largescale projects and ask them how they did it.

It's more interesting to me to hear what actually happened than to get speculative (however well-informed) advice.

gothemasticator

Just from my own point of view, I have to say I more or less agree with Richard. Iliana seems to have found the right formula. Being the only truly major province mod for Oblivion to have achieved a release. Had she done like the others appear to be doing, I'm not sure things would be as far along as they are. Her first release was pretty far along, and when it came, a whole lot of people showed up and wanted to help out. Myself included. The main thing there being that there was something tangible to look at, play with, experiment on, and have fun with.

I seriously think the other large province mods need to take a page from that book and release in stages. Start off with the basic landscaping, region details, and a few big cities. Throw in some NPCs so it isn't all lifeless. Then go from there. You may find that not only are other people more interested, you yourself become reinvested back into the project.

i think Illiana's biggest lesson to the community was that if you stick in there and do everything yourself people will worship you and eventually help out. She did tons and tons and tons of work herself before she got any sort of help from the community. i really respect that.

in general, everything in this thread is "right." yes, you should focus on a specific region, work in parts, do a lot of stuff yourself. however, the mystery of large mods is that even if you follow these rules you still have a very high chance of not achieving your goal. doing it "right" may better your odds, but it doesnt make it a sure-fire success.

gothemasticator: everything i say is directly from my own experience and from observation. i started modding Morrowind about 6 years ago (gawd, time flies). since then ive been involved in just about every side of modding and watched the progress of many teams that i did not end up joining. I've seen mods in which i had a part release and become very successful (Tamriel Rebuilt, Silgrad Tower), fail (Skyrim, Vvardenfell), and everything in between (Hammerfell, Sheogorad). i dont speculate.

As a side note...I wonder if ES V will have empty land set aside for modders to develop.

1) Start small, plan small and grow slowly at a manageable rate from there. Didn't Iliana start with a small village and once that was released and complete grew out from there?

2) Be prepared to do all the work yourself, because lets face it the majority of people are far more interested in using then making.

3) Don't rely on others, they will invariably let you down.

4) If you want people to make resources, make reasonable requests that are not to time consuming for our overworked modellers, who are spread thin as it is. One of the reasons my project Pell's Gate is packed with brand new resources is because people have time to make the odd resource here and there as I have requested. If I was requesting massive amounts in one go that would take hundreds of hours, it would be a different story.

I don't think it is a matter of what has been released already, although I suppose that can influence a bit in getting people to contribute. The reason I don't think that is because my own project just celebrated it's 2 year birthday with not one release and very little in the way of pictures shown and yet people are still happily contributing when I ask for help, much to my gratitude :wub: . That said the only interest in following the project is on my own forum, the thread here died a quick death like so many wips here, and given the lack of interest here I really can't be bothered to raise it from the dead. :rolleyes:

So I really think it is how much the modder is asking for from people and whether they want to do it, can fit it into their schedule, have other projects on the go etc....which takes me all the way back to point one....Start small and grow.

5) If you cannot get resources there is always a work around. Always be prepared to be flexible with your vision.

Anyway keep going with the discussion, I might write an article on it for the Christmas Edition Oblivion's Real Estate Newsletter.

I've had rather bad experiences with modding so far. I haven't even released anything yet! Now I know why. Anyway, very useful info for us aspiring young modders, to be sure! Thanks. This thread should probably be stickied somewhere.

Shezrie...

Those are some great comments and should be followed when a modder is about to give up all hope. I CAN'T WAIT TO EXPLORE PELL'S GATE WHEN YOU FINISH IT!!!!

Also, when you do get a team together, it pays to be well organized and to communicate with your team regularly, giving them feedback, directions, etc... should go without saying.

Several people have had very good things to say about this topic, and much of it is very sound. I would like, in particular, to concur with bg2408 and reiterate: Never underestimate the public's ability to show utter indifference toward your mod.

Many people, of course, will express interest in playing your completed mod, but very few will show any interest in helping you bring it to fruition. Those who show an interest early on are usually attracted by the opportunity to share their creative vision; those who come along later, after the mod is fairly well-developed, are attracted by the possibility of joining a passionate and vibrant community of like-minded modders. In either case, they are just as likely to create problems as provide content. If you are just starting out on a large mod I recommend you adopt one of two attitudes: do-it-yourself and go it alone until your idea is well-thought out and well-fleshed out, at which point it will attract the second type of modder; or be prepared to share your creative vision with individuals who are likely to differ vastly in taste and ambition and start attracting the first kind.

Being a well-known, established figure in the community will certainly help, but you still have to have a good idea with broad appeal to really drum up business. That's why the 'province' mods are so much more popular than total conversions and provide a safer, more conservative approach to mod design. I've always found it strangely ironic that a platform like Oblivion, which is pure fantasy, has always been so indifferent toward new projects which are not directly tied to the vanilla lore. If any game deserves a multitude of vastly divergent total conversions it is surely Oblivion but the concept of a TC is almost anathema to the TESIV community. I'm sure this is directly tied to the presumption that all TCs are de facto vaporware, but anyone who has any experience with other modding communities will surely find this strange, considering other communities spew forth TCs with abandon and take it as a matter of course; and that in communities where the underlying game engine is several magnitudes less-forgiving and technically more challenging to manipulate than the Oblivion engine, which is a pure sweetheart in comparison.

If you are just starting out and you are planning a large-scale mod, I recommend you start with a small core that is well-designed and fleshed-out and build from there, such as a single town and a single large quest. Creating vast landscapes of empty wilderness has proven time and again to lead to vast landscapes of empty wilderness. Once you have established yourself in the community and TESV has rolled around and everyone has seen the work you did on your TESIV mod and nodded and concurred that you 'do good work' they might be persuaded to help you on a larger-scale version of your mod. By which time you might just know enough to be able to pull it off.

I think the problems with Total Conversions are twofold.

First is that while the engine seems to be more forgiving and less challenging to completely new "games", that's unfortunately not the case. A lot of aspects are hardcoded, and changing the fundamentals of the game is tricky to impossible. Example given if you take a look at most Unreal Engine games which had modding tools released, they were more difficult to mod for, but allowed far more freedom to turn game mechanics for the mod around. Pretty much the only TC you can do with Oblivion is Oblivion Gameplay in a different gameworld.

Second problem is that a Total Conversion effectively blocks off modded Oblivion. So a TC for the user to be of any interest, it has not only to best Vanilla, but modded Oblivion. Example given if I play Iliana's Elsweyr mod, I can go back and forth to Cyrodiil. That's good. In a total conversion that's not possible. One mod would cause you to miss out all other mods. I'm not surprised that people don't get excited about that, especially if you combine this problem with the first (a TC will be just Oblivion in a different gameworld, nothing else is technically possible).

As for "tied to vanilla lore", while some more or less popular mods try to adhere established lore, many popular mods don't. That is not an issue.

I used the term TC loosely here, since I didn't actually expect a response.

As far as true TCs go, everything you say is absolutely true. But most people modding Oblivion want something similar to Oblivion or they wouldn't be modding it, they'd be modding Unreal or HL2. Most people would be satisfied with 'Oblivion in a different game world' if the game world were more intelligently thought out, better written, better acted, more immersive, and had a few new models and creatures thrown in. There are no restrictions in any of these departments as far as modding the game goes. Let's call this a 'new world' conversion as opposed to a total conversion.

If your new world conversion restricts itself to custom models, textures, and sounds/music, and adds only new world spaces, NPCs, factions, and quests there really isn't any reason why they won't work with the majority of mods already created for Oblivion. Only those mods that change the vanilla world space of Tamriel and its inhabitants will 'break', and they wouldn't cause any harm, only have no effect. I am currently working on a new world conversion myself and it is absolutely essential to me, personally, that it work with my favorite realism/immersion mods. If you combine a new world space with existing gameplay changing mods you effectively have a 'total conversion' which is at least as different from the original game as many TCs created for other engines where developer skill and experience combined with engine complexity often restricts modders from making any changes to gameplay more divergent than what you find in Oblivion. How many HL2 mods use head-crab zombies and combine soldiers in their 'total conversions'? That's a consequence of the fact that the engine is so complex you have to be a knowledgeable C++ programmer just to create new NPCs and creatures. (The AI absolutely demands compiling your own source code.) In comparison, Oblivion has a drag-and-drop AI engine which works pretty well for most cases so the modder only has to know how to model and animate to get the creature in-game. Oblivion is a great place to learn modding. And once you know enough you can go off and start learning how to use the admittedly more flexible and adaptable engines for a true TC.