Very well written, I enjoyed reading all of those.

While I can't 100% agree with you, I do feel Beth is taking a step backward. Too many things are breaking my immersion.

Like the insane hand holding? The quick travel, the brainless smithing (which is only so hard as figuring out how to click the Iron Dagger button fast enough), the dungeons that always neatly deliver you back at the entrance or the exit, the massive glowing markers on your map that you have to edit in the game files to turn off? Like another poster said, the thing allowing you to succeed is the fact that you have a pulse. And that's the problem, I'm getting bitter and cynical now as the night wears on and the blunt posts continue to roll in.

For anyone thinking you can just rush through the game and not ever die your obviously not playing on master mode.

The default difficulty is made for people who svck really really bad at video games...

Fantastic post, and your arguments remind me of some of my most enjoyable Morrowind moments, sneaking through a dwemer ruin because if I got caught, I would be toast.

But its not realistic.

In my dream world, we have Skyrim as deep as Morrowind, but can we really expect a modern business orientated company to produce this. Theres no profit in it now that the demands on graphics are so high and detail taking up so much manpower and time, so much work has to be put into the aesthetics rather than the content which is a true shame.

I am personally overwhelmed with gratitude that Bethseda have created a game which has clearly taken on a lot of the criticism against Oblivion and improved itself immeasurably. But I do not expect Bethseda to bounce backwards into full on Morrowind mode.

I seriously don't think TES is heading towards pure Action Adventure game as people seem to make out, but rather we are heading towards a type of roleplay that is recreating neither tabletop or live roleplay, and something that is uniquely suited to a computer and is neither. Its an evolution, and I'm interested to see where they go with it.

Personally I think we are heading towards a simplification of basic statistical gaming that are the backbone of 90s Western RPGs, and simplification is not a swear word. A live roleplay must have a reduced skill list to be effective with simple game mechanics, but any live roleplayer will know is that the GAME itself, is no less complex, simply that what would require a skillcheck in a tabletop for climbing a tree, you can just.. climb a tree for real in live. As visuals have improved to such an impressive extent, it makes sense that the game would mirror a live roleplay more than a tabletop roleplay, and this trend will continue.

Now, plenty of tabletop roleplayers abhore live roleplay because its "dumbed down". Is it less of a roleplaying game? No.

Dragon Age Origins flew the flag for computer based tabletop, but Skyrim flies the flag for computer based live roleplay. A game that tries to do both will bankrupt the company.

Now the criticism of Skyrim is perfectly valid in many respects, because its subjective opinion and the game fails to live up to your own expectations, but I respect Bethseda in what they have achieved in a Call of Duty, World of Warcraft dominated marketplace, and held true to some core principles. Morrowind was exceptional in that it attempted a tabletop game in 3d, but its just is not sustainable when demands on graphics and detail is so huge now.
The polygon model for a single dragon now, is probably equivalent to 3 towns in Morrowind (I admit I have no statistics to back this up, so feel free to tear that assumption apart if you have real facts).

If Bethseda really "SOLD OUT", .. you'd know about it.. you'd really really know about it, and your anger would be tenfold as you kill a dragon using a triangle, circle circle, R1 quicktime event.

Its a natural evolution, and no, you don't have to like it, and no, I don't even like it contrary to what you may think from this post, I dream of Skyrim with Morrowind values, but I understand it, respect it, and am not offended that Bethseda did not make a game with just me in mind.

@OP

If you have been around since daggerfall like you say you have, you would realize that Morrowind was in the same situation as Skyrim was when it was new. People were nostalgic towards daggerfall, and thought that the facts they took out horses, climbing, banking, bigger world, etc. made morrowind less of a release than its predecessor. If you have been around since Daggerfall, you would realize that every new Elder Srolls is almost a completely new world and game system.

If you are truly unhappy, just dont play it until you get your hands on OOO type mod for skyrim

I agree with a lot of what you have to say. The thing is though, Skyrim to me, is one of the greatest games ever. Is it better than Morrowind? I think the 2 are equal. There are things I loved about Morrowind that I wish would return to the series, and you outlined those things perfectly. There was a sense of "okay, there MAY be some legendary loot hidden in this dark and forboding place. I'm too low level but if I use everything at my disposal and play intelligently, I may be able to make it to the end..." in Morrowind that made exploring amazing. In Skyrim, it seems that so far (37 hours in), you're not going to find legendary, or more importantly, static-ly placed items in the game world. Your loot is going to be based on what level you are currently, we know that. However, I don't think it's been a bad experience because of that. It's just different. Different than Morrowind. Whereas Morrowind was meticulously hand-placed, Skyrim instead rewards you in a different way, which can be just as rewarding I think. I still love in Skyrim slightly upgrading my gear, and finding Orcish gauntlets in a challenging cave to replace my Dwarven ones. It does foster a good feeling of progression.

And one thing to point out, they did not dumb the difficulty of Skyrim down. Skyrim so far for me, has had many challenges to overcome. Some fights are brutal difficulty and make you want to either come back later when higher level, or fight it out with everything at your disposal and somehow, possibly make it through (much like Morrowind). And of course, in Skyrim you are almost always rewarded with a nice chest at the end of your dungeon for the taking. Sure the loot is scaled, but that doesn't make it less interesting. I do wish there were more hand-placed items of value in the game though. I really wish I could stumble into some sacred ruin at level 10 and find a Daedric mask stuffed away in a remote and hard to find area of the ruin, and have a helmet for the next 30 levels, because the game rewarded my curiosity. But Skyrim just approaches things differently, and rewards you in different ways. If I had to choose one system though, it would be the static hand-placement of Morrowind though, but like I said earlier, game-wise, Skyrim is an equal to Morrowind in my book. Both are perfect RPGs (obviously not perfect, but big picture-wise they are both perfect to me).

I would argue that map markers and fast travel are actually very helpful in the game as well. Well, obviously they are helpful, but I also feel they aren't as immersion-breaking as some may think. Would I prefer mark/recall or a system of lore-based teleportation? Sure. Do I mind fast travelling the way the system is now? Not at all. Saves me the time of wandering aimlessly. And yes, I understand Morrowind's large appeal was exactly that, wandering aimlessly and exploring, but most of the time I used fast travel in that game too, just in a different form. As for map markers, I would prefer to do without them, but again, Skyrim is not a dumbed down game because of them. They are unintrusive and tucked away for the most part, and you can even turn them off if you'd like. But I don't really mind them. It cuts out a little time of wandering aimlessly again, which can be a good or bad thing depending on how you feel about it, but it doesn't dumb down the experience to me, it really doesn't. In a perfect world the NPCs who send you on quests would give you sufficient information to find locations without the need of markers, much like the directions given in Morrowind, but again, Skyrim just approaches things in a different way. It's a bit streamlined so you're not getting lost every time you take on a lengthy quest that has you cutting your way through the terrain. It lets you get to the reward a little bit quicker. There's nothing wrong with that approach because in the end, you're still going to be taking quite a bit of time to do the quest itself, because the dungeons are in depth, long, and somewhat challenging. The quest system feels very rewarding in Skyrim, even with the streamlined approach. Again, I just think it's Skyriim doing things in a different, not better or worse, way.

I would definitely argue that Skyrim as a whole is just as intelligent as Morrowind. I really would. This is a hardcoe RPG, no doubt about it. I can't imagine knowing nothing about TES games, and playing Skyrim for the first time. I would be completely overwhelmed. Hell, I'm almost overwhelmed with the amount of sheer content in the game and I've played these games since Morrowind. Every nook and cranny has content, it's really amazing how much they've been able to pack into this game. And so far, it's all been rewarding to do. Even the menial miscallenous tasks have been fun to do, even if the rewards aren't the greatest, I still find them worth doing. But the game is very much intelligent, and an intelligent player will gain much more from the game by simply engaging more NPCs, taking more quests, intelligently exploring the terrain, etc. Sure, the game could be even more hardcoe, like Morrowind which I feel obviously, was the most hardcoe game of the series. But it's pretty good the way it is. And you know, if they removed map markers and fast travel (at least the fast travel system in Skyrim, and replaced it with more archaic methods like mark/recall), the majority of players would probably complain about getting lost too much, or taking too much time to do things. That's just the nature of the beast at this point, they introduced something in Oblivion that they now cannot do without. But it really doesn't break my immersion or lessen the quality of the game, at all.

In summary, I would hope in TES VI: Black Marsh, they add more hand-placed, non-scaled loot to the world, in dangerous, hard to reach areas. But then again, think about how hard it is to balance a system like that. One item could give you enough gold to not worry about gold for the next 5-10 levels. I suppose it would be balanced by the fact it would be hard to obtain due to the enemies guarding it and it's hidden location though. But I would definitely prefer more of that. As far as map markers and fast travel, I say it's fine as it is. Skyrim to me, is a perfect RPG exactly how it is. Hopefully I actually said something in this little exposition, but I may not have. If I didn't and you read this whole thing, I apologize. Peace!

P.S. Let me also stress this point. I do NOT for one second believe making the game more hardcoe and adding more Morrowind values to the game would effect it's sales whatsoever. I honestly do not believe that, at all. I believe gamers will still embrace a game even as hardcoe as Morrowind, because for one, Morrowind is well loved around as a classic RPG, and 2, I believe gamers enjoy the depth and challenge of hardcoe RPGs such as Skyrim. They would "suffer through" any hardcoe aspects, even the casual gamers would I think. I honestly don't think Bethesda removed the more hardcoe options in Morrowind in order to make Skyrim more accessible. The game itself is still in a word, immense. I think they removed those things just to take a different, equally legitimate approach to the series. Like I said before, there is nothing dumbed down about Skyrim, it's about as hardcoe of an RPG as you will ever find, yet it still is going to sell ridiculous amounts of copies being a hardcoe RPG. That tells you what types of games gamers want, and Bethesda will continue to deliver.

Every single time a TES game comes out, the embittered fans cry murder. I've resisted much of the time, but I've felt that the continued removal of the basic elements of finding your way around such a beautiful world (aka continued scaling and GPS/markers) to be hard to take. I found that I was always expected something a little bit hidden, that would surprise me. Thus far it's been the treasure map with the star sign on it. And that's about it.

I just had a thought regarding the quest markers. You don't even have to mod the game to turn them off, just deselect the quest in your journal.

Personally I like the trend of "accessability" in video games. I really don't play videogames to intellectually stimulated. Just stimulated.

:shrug: I just want to have a good time. I'm not going to get all worked up over a videogame, good or bad.

I'm really only looking for the next big thing. Right now it's Skyrim, next month SWTOR . In 2011, ME3, D3, GW2.

I don't entirely agree with all your praise of Morrowind - it didn't really take intelligence or time to become powerful, although at least you did get more powerful over time no matter what, unlike in Skyrim. I also don't feel that Bethesda has "sold out" as I feel Skyrim still shows genuine enthusiasm for making great games - they could've put out a $60 TES sequel every year like so many EA/Activision owned devs do now, but instead spent the time and effort to make something much bigger and better.

I do agree though that level scaling is overbearing in Skyrim as it was in Oblivion. Level scaling could've improved the game to some extent but they just go way, way too heavy on it. NPC health scaling gets as ridiculous as it did in Oblivion depending on how you level up. It's far too important in this game's combat to focus on your damage skill(s) first and everything else second because if you don't you're going to be spending a lot of time whacking extraordinarily durable bandits and so on. They needed caps on a lot of things, and minimum levels for others(Dragons). Right now the game's level scaling breaks immersion, ruins combat, and harshly punishes players who play less combat oriented characters.

Sorry to pick at what you've taken the time to write, I just wanted to add something before bed (it's 4 am here). Basically, my problem is not with the combat at all. What you've highlighted to me is that the challenges in Skyrim are almost entirely combat related. I think a good way of saying what I'm dissatisfied with is that I'm no longer challenged in any other way. I think I particularly miss that sense of mystery and challenge in finding the conflict, before actually engaging in it. In Skyrim, I feel like I'm incessantly waiting for the next fight, as that's the only way I'll be challenged to think critically again.

Similarly, my brother spent the entire night trying to prove my scaling point wrong. Thus far, he has, as a level 3 mage, managed to procure an ebony bow, ebony mace and ebony axe from some pretty brutal battles in Labyrinthia, but I'll add more to that tomorrow!

My main problem with Skyrim (and Oblivion) is how the entire world feels completely sterile and static. Bethesda has created an amazing game world (admittedly, this only applies to Skyrim) but has failed to bring it to life. Nobody cares that there is a civil war going on. Nobody cares that Alduin is back. Aside from generic cursory remarks, the average NPC doesn't seem to care that dragons are out to destroy the world. This continues being the case even after you finish certain quest lines, ones that ought to have absolutely shattering effects on the game world.

Compare this to Daggerfall or Morrowind. Their game world felt alive. There was a distinct sense of impending doom. This is in spite of the fact that all the NPCs did was stand around in basically the same spot forever.

In fact there are a lot of things that make Skyrim "dumber" than Morrowind or even Oblivion. It's just that its better than the two in just as many aspects.

And when you get quest like that one where you have to kill 3 guardian beasts,where npc doesnt say a word about location,what then? and 90% of quests in Skyrim are like that one,no infos from npc on location,marker shows it all.

The problem here is that people want to feel smart when they play a game. Frankly this is stupid. I play a game to have fun and escape reality. If feeling smart is fun for you I suggest you pursue academic things and leave video gaming behind.

People want to use their brain while playing and by using it achieve something,and that feeling provides satisfaction.Without all of that you could just go and watch a movie instead play a game.

Yes ! here are my opinions and why I agree with you


http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1258143-my-turn-for-opinion/page__st__20

here a list for sugestions and things to fix


http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1272793-features-list-to-be-fixed-in-patch-or-expansion/page__st__20

honestly to me it seems like bethesda is making the game so that it is easy for bethesda to create and we just have to suffer the loss of the things we know and love.

todd said levitating, and specifically mark and recall were taken out of the series FOREVER, because when they tested it they would make a mission and a guy would say oh yea i'll just use recall. that made bethesda say well you can get out of anything freely using recall and levitate so were getting rid of it.

then spears, now i don't understand this part but todd said he liked spears but they took it out because "it takes focus away from all the other great skills we have for you" like wtf does that mean? since i get a spear i won't use healing anymore? i got a spear so now i don't lockpick? i mean that is just a lame ass excuse for taking out yet another fun aspect of game, i bet daedric halberds would be bad ass in skyrim.

then the level scaling, i LOVED being able to start a character in morrowind, walking up to a house i googled to find it had daedric, and taking it and at level 1 i have best armor in game, thing is bethesda had to HAND PLACE that armor in that exact spot, now in skyrim and oblivion the world seems bigger, more places to go, way more dungeons, it would be more difficult for bethesda to hand place all these items all through the world, compared to hey, put out 4000 iron daggers everywhere on the map and add 2 damage everytime they level up, maybe a random useless enchantment.

and i won't even start on how the skills are simplified and the attributes removed all together. so i may be crazy but it just seems like to me they take out all the difficult fun or not aspects of creating the game so that it is done easier for them. even to the point of removing greaves so now that's 1 less entire set of armor they don't have to worry about.

Be the change you want to see. Learn how to code and write your own games targeted to an audience interested in depth and challenge. Never dumb down for some fabricated "LCD". That's what I'm doing. Gamers are upset everywhere due to the over-simplification of their favorite titles with each contrived sequel, and the market is currently wide open.

Part of my complaint about the static world of Morrowind is that the player already knew where the big, expensive stuff was sitting. You could go there, take it, rinse and repeat, every time.

In Skyrim, there's still a chance that powerful, expensive equipment will show up, even to a low level character. Now, though, it's actually rare, which is what it is supposed to be. If you can create a character and walk directly to the nearest place to snag the best equipment in the game, every time, well what's the point of that? Now you actually have to get LUCKY in order to find something fantastic. Which is more challenging, and more realistic.

So while I agree with the OP in a lot of ways, I think the static world is actually a con of Morrowind. My typical strategy for that game was to raid the Redoran Vault and the tower of Divayth Fyre right from the very beginning. With the huge amount of money I could get selling that stuff to the mudcrab, I could go an enchant a nice ring with an incredibly powerful spell. Boom, by level 3 or so I was ready to beat the majority of the game. Snore. All because I knew where everything was, and how to get at it. So in that respect, we disagree.

By contrast, though, I agree entirely about the quest compass. I really used to enjoy it when I had a hard time finding something. I will admit that I referenced my share of strategy guides or online sites in order to eventually locate the harder ones, as I'm sure we all do. However, it was nice having the challenge of talking to people, asking them how to find something, or reading descriptions of it in books.

So, 1 yes, and 1 no from me.

1. Hand holding: What hand holding? You mean a quest marker? Okay, too bad all that tells you is the general direction to go into. It doesn't tell you -how- to get there. It doesn't tell you what paths to take. And even with quest markers, I have still gotten lost plenty of times thanks to interweaving dungeons and a diverse, detailed landscape. It's not like it was incredibly more "intelligent" to open up your map in Morrowind and see that Balmora was to the north of Seyda Neen. The "hand holding" of Oblivion and Skyrim is vastly overrated, considering all your quest points in Morrowind had a big ol' map marker on your map. All Oblivion and Skyrim did was take out the tedious repetitive opening of the map over and over again. And I'd even argue that in Skyrim, the need to open the map is back due to the fact that unlike Oblivion, the world isn't a wide open flatland.

2. Quick travel: You don't have to use it. And for those saying "the temptation is always there" - well that's your fault, not the game. I made a very clear, conscious decision early on to not fast travel. The only fast travel I use is the carriages. I think I have fast traveled a grand total of 2 times - short distances at that, and the only reason I did it was because it was getting late, I was getting tired, and I just wanted to turn in my quests before shutting the game off for the night. Fast travel is only as much of an issue as you make it. You can play the game 100% without fast travel.

3. Brainless Smithing that is only as hard as "clicking" on an item: Except for the fact that you have to have the resources, which requires hunting, mining, gathering... The "easy" way out still requires finding a blacksmith that sells the materials you are searching for, and trust me, finding a blacksmith that sells Steel Ingots isn't just as simple as walking into Warmaidens. So far I have found only 2 blacksmiths that sell Steel Ingots, and has greatly lessened my Smithing advancement.

4. Dungeons that always neatly place you back at the exit: Um... what? No more than Morrowind. I happen to recall quite a few dungeons in Morrowind that had secret passages back to the beginning of the dungeon for easy escape. Which is much less tedious that running around in circles and getting lost over and over again in a dungeon you've already cleared, and you just want to get out. And - for the record, without Clairvoyance, I have gotten lost on a few occasions in Skyrim dungeons as well. But, just like Morrowind, it's as simple as pulling up your local map and figuring your way out.

5. Glowing map icons: What??? You mean, when a location which you've already discovered, is filled in with color? The same way that locations that you've discovered in Morrowind have big groups of bright yellow blocks on the map??

I love Morrowind. It -was- my favorite game of all time until Skyrim showed up, and now I think that Skyrim is my new favorite. But Morrowind isn't some overly massively complicated game that required you to be oh so smart to figure out. I really am starting to believe that these "old timers" (of which I am one as I am no "new generation" gamer) are over valuing just how complex these games are to make themselves feel better about themselves due to some elitist complex. These are -games- we are talking about. It doesn't take some super intelligent genius to figure out a game. Morrowind is not overly complex or complicated. Having dice rolls determine the outcome of combat is not depth nor intelligence. Min/maxing a leveling cycle to get x5 modifiers is not depth or intelligence.

Morrowind had no more choices on how to accomplish a quest than Oblivion or Skyrim. The quests were rather straight forward.

The depth and intelligence of Elder Scrolls comes from the vast lore of the world. Not because one game had attributes and the other doesn't, or one game has compass markers while the other has big bright yellow map icons telling you where to go.

Not the mention that you can wear only 1 ring at a time,which is ridicilous,also they threw out different enchantments on items,so 90% of robes etc. have: +magicka,less % mana to cast,and one or 2 more stats and thats it,predictable and dull.Yet i find those markers most annoying thing of all,its like they must guide you through the game because we are all retarted and cant do anything without telling us how and where.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!

Hackworthy



I feel the same--what other game had levitation none that I know of unless you include riding dragons which isn't the same. It was a very unique experience--if there's another game that has levitation, please tell me. I was hoping they would bring it back for Skyrim but with that said I should also say that I'm having great fun playing this new game.. :violin: :tongue:


:obliviongate: :shakehead:

Honestly though, the more I think about quest markers the more I come to the following line of thought:

1.
If I was actually an adventuring, enterprising explorer, would I have a map with me or not? In all sensibilities in a land as complex and rugged as Skyrim? Yea. I would. So would you.

2.
If someone actually needed my help with something and managed to convince me to go to some cave, how would they best get me there?
"Well, head up on this path here, turn left at the crazy looking rock, then go down past 4 trees and look for the yellow mushroom." Maybe. More likely?
"Hey, lemme see your map for a second. Yea... I think it was right about here."

3.
Uh.. oh wait. That's exactly what Skyrim does.

I think if we are going to argue about realism or rationality, quest markers and maps are just the only things that make any sense at all.