I think one theme I see in these types of threads is the "Bethesda has sold-out"/"dumbed-down" for the masses complaints. I liken it to discovering an edgy, unknown band when you're in college, following them for years, buying albums and concert tickets, then resenting the "new sound" and the "newbie fans" who don't appreciate the band's "early stuff."

While I understand the sentiment, I think it ignores some economic realities. From what I've seen, Bethesda studios wasn't exactly reaching "the masses" with their products until the Oblivion/Fallout 3 era. Essentially, we're asking them to not bring in a wider audience and give the die-hards what they want. I understand the desire to see the things we loved in the older games never change. At the same time, as artists (and that's what I consider the folks at Beth who design the games to be), I don't think it's fair to assume that an attempt to reach a wider audience is inherently "selling out" or compromising. Betheseda should want and strive to have their games played by as many human beings on the planet as possible. If that requires making the games slightly more playable for a wider audience, so be it. It may mean some changes occur from game to game--some changes I may love, some not so much. At least I know that the company making my favorite games isn't going to stagnate and give me the same game every few years with a new name, and may be financially viable for many more years to come.

We should continue to ask Beth to correct/change things we don't like, but let's not fault them for trying to get their games into more hands world-wide.

This this this!!! For some reason people feel like they need a needlessly complicated game to feel intelligent. Enjoy the games for what they are. This dumbing down argument is getting old. Real old. Games are FUN. If you want a Super complicated game go play dwarf fortress or something. Elder scrolls games are made to be accessible. Bethesda is a business and the vast majority of players enjoy the changes. Bethesda isn't going to change for the vocal minority that whines about dumbing down on the forums. I cannot wait to see a maiq comment on this.

The only reason your putting that statement out is because of the graphical difference.
If you actually played Morrowind, as in ROLEPLAYED it, you would understand.
The atmosphere is very different, 100% better by far any other TES game that Bethesda has released.
I remember when I first took the giant jellyfish to Balmora, then making a stop in Ebonhart. It was exciting.
Not to mention the variety of gameplay option and choices were zenith.
Everything in Morrowind was magical. It was like the first step on the moon, except.. it was a RPG game.
The MQ in Morrowind was also the most innovative and brilliant. Oblivion's was very predictable and Skyrim's is overly shortened.
Having to convince every clan in Morrowind that you were indeed the reincarnation of Neverar, killing a god and his brothers. Having to destroy his magical heart with specified weapons; Sunder and Keening.
Ghost Mountain, Red Mountain, Vivec.. Alamaxia.
How can you top that?
How is it overrated?

Therefore... your statement is Void, like Sithis.

The easiest way to explain away his entire argument is simple, very simple. Fully voiced NPCs. Morrowind didn't have it, so it was much easier to make text based triggers for certain events, or given directions in a completely textual format. Voice acting costs money, they've already invested much more in that regard. Would you be happier if they instead gave you a note spelling out the directions? Don't get me wrong, this is also why i feel like BG2 is still the best party based rpg ever made, but its a reality we have to live with. So with that, this is such a nitpick its unbelievable as far as i'm concerned.

You know how i navigated Morrowind back in the day bro? I used UESP's virtual map to give me a general direction to head toward. Guess whats very similar to that? Exactly, you still have to figure out exactly how to get there. Also, theres nothing intelligent about being able to follow some virtual directions, only tedium. Never mind that morrowind also allowed you to completely ignore such things with the liberal use of Levitate. You said something about irrational teleporting? Gee i seem to recall there being a teleport npc in every mage guild, oh but it gets better! With minimal magic investment you could learn the spells "Mark" and "Recall" which acting like a hearthstone from WoW! Wish i could recall out of getting my ass kicked in this game right?

I've already posted on this. It's moving away from the simulationist mindset and moving into a gameist and narrativist mindset. Simulationists tend to be fairly few these days, the bigger markets tend to be in more accessible styles of immersion and needs of playing.

Can't please everyone all of the time...........

Morrowind with modern graphics wipes the floor with skyrim or Oblivion.

You just described nostalgia. It was exciting because it was a good memory. I have similar awesome memory's of mOrrowind when I was sneaking around houses stealing alchemy supplies, but I recognize these memories for what they are. Nostalgia. Morrowind was my first elder scrolls so I look back on it as the best but I acknowledge these feelings as nostalgia.

I think you may have somewhat of a point but I think an RPG game needs to have some intellegence to complete as well. I love Zelda for just that reason -- it's not hard necessarily to get to a dungeon or the next objective, but it's not easy either (even with the bird and flute. The hard part is once you get to a dungeon you have to figure out where to go IN the dungeon and more importantly how to get there.

I think that would work much better in TES. Maybe you do know where the big bad is, but it might be behind pits of lava, a giant horker with a bad attitude and a raised drawbridge. How do you cross all of those things? How do you convince the guards to let you in to a restricted area? How do you take out the BB in the dungeon? (actually TES is pretty bad about boss fights as the battles were never all that tactical).

I'd love to see both given and recieved limb damage like fallout. It seems pretty reasonable to assume that the dragon ain't going far with a broken or missing wing. destructable barriers are cool, switch puzzles, searching and entire dugeon for a key. Any of that can make the game more challenging, and probably more things than I can even think of. Maybe the answer would be hidden in some lore book.

I'll just make one up

I need to find the shattered gem.
I might have to go to mages college in Anvil to check in the library
I read half a dozen books searching for a reference to that shattered gem.
It's related to an event at a place called temple of the one.
Maybe I should ask the bards college for more clues.
No one really knows where it is, but there's an archeological dig going on at the old site of the Imperial city.
Go to the dig site, chat everybody up
Still know one knows, but they found a ruined guide book in old tamrielic.
Can't read it, but that old mage in the library was a student of old languages. Maybe she can translate it.
go back, she reads it, and I'm looking for the temple district (and there's random stuff about the geography of the city)
archeologists use the notes and the ruins to tell me where to start.
I go there, and there's a giant dragon, who I can either persuade or defeat to get the shattered gem.


At that point I have the gem and may or may not need to figure out how to fix it and re-enchant it for a future quest.

You'd definately be rewarded for lore-houndatry, but it's not exactly like morrowind.

Im curious, what makes morrowind or oblivion, or any other tes game for that matter, an "intelligent game", it seems to me that the series is quite the opposite really, well maybe not completely, but I find it extremely strange to have them be called "intelligent" in any way.

I have not played skyrim yet, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that skyrim is a much better game than morrowind ever was. Now I love morrowind, and I have alot of experience with mods, and that can give alot of insight into the game's systems (since one uses mods to fix the problems.) To put it simply, Morrowind is a very inconsistent and flawed game, in much more than one way. Skyrim is greatly improved, and despite its flaws (which Ill take your word for, as I havent played it), it seems that it easily surpasses morrowind as an enjoyable experience, which is what the series is all about, since tes was never good as an RPG.

Do you not understand?
In Morrowind, they invested more time in the Main Quest, character skills, choices..
It was more innovative story-line wise.
In Skyrim, Bethesda is COMPETING with other companies that already have top of the line graphics..
They are focusing on graphics, animations, the things that make your screen sparkle.

But what are they missing?
Longer quests.. more surprises... balanced classes.
Think about it, every quest in Morrowind has a longer length than Oblivion and Skyrim.
Oblivion had more of a story line than Skyrim.

The focus is misplaced.
They have confused the RPG with Crysis and are TRYING to make better graphics.

Oh, trust me. I am addicted to Skyrim, but to place Skyrim 100% over Morrowind is a wrong move.

The only thing that is better is the graphics, AI and voice acting.

Hope you understand now.

Im curious, what makes morrowind or oblivion, or any other tes game for that matter, an "intelligent game", it seems to me that the series is quite the opposite really, well maybe not completely, but I find it extremely strange to have them be called "intelligent" in any way.

I have not played skyrim yet, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that skyrim is a much better game than morrowind ever was. Now I love morrowind, and I have alot of experience with mods, and that can give alot of insight into the game's systems (since one uses mods to fix the problems.) To put it simply, Morrowind is a very inconsistent and flawed game, in much more than one way. Skyrim is greatly improved, and despite its flaws (which Ill take your word for, as I havent played it), it seems that it easily surpasses morrowind as an enjoyable experience, which is what the series is all about, since tes was never good as an RPG.

Edit: Sorry, double post.

We understand what you are trying to say. I think you are wrong. Bethesda did not go graphics to the wall on Skyrim. I think the story is fascinating. I think the quests are interesting, some of them. I find the compass and map a bit annoying sometimes, but then I remember http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1277905-the-big-problem-with-the-way-things-are-going/page__view__findpost__p__19324395.

MAJOR SPOILERS:

All of this is in your opinion. In my opinion the quests in skyrim and the exploring/dungeons are much better. And more surprises ? Ya maybe because it was the first elder scrolls game for most people. Morrowind had static loot so it was easy to get loot that was overpowered. Sure it surprises you once then never again.

The fact is you can't give Credit when you don't know. It's like saying the Average WoW player is smart. Who knows maybe they are and the average WoW player may or may not be Stupid as all hell. People seem to forget that people posting on the Forums tend to be the People who Care for the Game and have ideas. Not the people who if u put a mini puzzle in front of them they have to Google it because no matter how easy it is they can't understand it.

Also Flying while fun for the Player is Stupid. Always has been and it breaks games. Look at WoW flying broke the Immersion of the game. When you can just fly over anything when Beth puts in a puzzle and you can just fly over it why not fly all the time? They took it out for a good good reason. They Didn't let you fly in Tribunal for a Reason in the city.

Acrobatics and Athletics was and will always be dumb. Idk how people honestly can say they want it back. All it did was force you to run around while jumping for hours on end. Personally i don't enjoy hitting E 5000000 times to level up a skill to jump a bit higher. I'd rather they normallize jump and give us a jump spell back.

Spell Creation is Fun and amazing but they need to figure out a way to do spell creation without making spells stupidly overpowered also

I, for my part, agree with the op 100%.

IMO:

Did I have more fun playing Baldur's Gate 2 than Skyrim? Yes

Was the Witcher 2 more immersive than Skrim? 10000% Yes

Does a simple game like Mount & Blade have a better combat system (melee) than Skyrim? Yes

Do modern RPG are less immersive? Yes

Am I having a blast with Skyrim? Yes

I prefer the way of the olds in the world of RPG gaming but the modern games are still good in their own rights. It just that I never get immersed in anything in SKyrim I just do that and that to have that....

Just my 2 cent

I agree with you OP. My biggest problem is the fast travel option without ever having been there. I don't have a problem necessarily with having a location of where I need to go marked on my map, but I don't think I should be able to just click it and go there. Like you said, the fast travel undermines one of the series and Skyrim in particular's best selling point: the world itself. They took the time to build this gigantic, beautiful world...and then allow players to skip it all and just go straight from place to place. Kind of shooting yourself in the foot it seems like.

I also liked the static world for the same reasons you said. A level 3 new player would be committing suicide by trying to head directly to Red Mountain. But they still could if they wanted to. And it was much more dangerous and exciting for doing so, knowing that some hideous powerful creature much more powerful than you could cream you in a second. And having the dungeons/ruins/shrines be static gave the setting a really realistic feel...like, for example, going into a daedric shrine in the wilderness near Red Mountain, a shrine hidden away for centuries and filled with powerful, insane daedra worshipers that have been doing their thing longer than you may have been alive. There was a real sense of "things have been going on here for a long time, without me." Which I really liked. The world was a harsh place, and you felt that as the world didn't cater itself to you.

And I don't think ElderScrollsMaThang was saying that the Morrowind MQ was "better" or "more interesting" than Skyrim's MQ. I think what he was saying is that it was longer and more complex. And I agree. Morrowind's MQ was long and detailed and full of conspiracies and whatnot. Skyrim's MQ felt much shorter and much more linear than Morrowind's MQ (at least the first time I played it.) Also, not nearly as much of Morrowind's MQ involved "go here and kill this thing" but more skills than just combat. Diplomacy, cooperation, player ingenuity, etc. In Morrowind, I felt it was a little more realistic. Not everyone believed you when you claimed to be Nerevar reborn. In fact, you had to spend a lot of time convincing the skeptics of the truth.

But in Skyrim, as soon as you absorb that first Dragon soul (whether you actually killed it or not), everyone in the world is like, "OMG Dragonborn we <3 you!"

I love Skyrim and I do think the premise of the MQ is fascinating. But I do miss that spark that Morrowind's MQ had...

You may spend all the time you wish waxing nostalgia, but it will never get you anywhere, and you won't be happy doing so. I suggest moving beyond words and designing your own games to perhaps get a taste of how dreams change over time.

Ugh another person thinking skyrim is oblivion. In skyrim you DO have to discover a place before you can fast travel there. Even the major cities. So sick of people acting like skyrim is oblivion.

Have you even played skyrim? There are dangerous parts to it. Level scaling works a lot different than oblivion. If you go into a high level dungeon at a lower level you will die. Even of you go into a high level area you die. This is NOT oblivion . Play the damn game before you comment on it.

I really agree, but unfortunately it will never happen. People are more into "I want it now" instead of the older "Think and plan ahead" They want the game to hold their hand and throw a fit when they can't do somthing another character can. This is my most liked feature of the Gothic games, enemies are static and don't change. If you want to survive, you have to learn about the environment your fighting in, adapt your tactics and be sure your ready for such a challenge.





Skyrim is a hell of a lot more like Oblivion than Morrowind. They just fixed the severity of many of Oblivion's biggest problems. Level scaling is in the game, though not to the same degree. Fast travel anyplace is in the game, but you must discover it first (Fallout style) unless you take a carriage. Skyrim improves upon Oblivion in ways, but makes it worse in ways. Also..there are no high level dungeons, all dungeons are spawned based on your character's level upon the first time you enter.

Love the eloquence in this piece. I really feel the same way. It all being static, made things more challenging and mysterious. Admitted, Morrowind IS mysterious and strange, knowing that the deep dungeons in remote areas are probably dangerous but the possibility of amazing loot even more tempting. Oblivion completely missed that shell and Skyrim sits happily between them. I enjoy Skyrim but sometimes I long for that true diverse world that was Morrowind and Solstheim. That add-on was just DARK. Making me afraid to go out in the nights, rather resting up in the mead hall and hear stories or read Vivec's secret library and be a true scholar [ RPG ] wise.

It's why I will always keep Morrowind installed, in it's vanilla version and if I can find the time, add in that graphical overhaul pack. But nothing beats that thrill and dread Morrowind conveyed. Skyrim lost that fine touch but still carries on from Morrowind. I wonder what TES VI will bring!

Ive read most of the authors Thesis and while I do agree in some aspects I do disagree. I havent read 8 pages of responses so if anyones covered this, my apologies.

I think the developers saw a number of general problems with Morrowind and went around to fixing them in a way in which RPG enthusiasts and casuals could somehow get a long in an ORPG. However, I think somewhere alongthe way, the enthusaists who lvoed Morrowind really lost touch with the idea of "the game they want to play, how they want to play it" and the game "the developers want you to play". While I agree, there are inescapable sides to the game, some of the features you have mentioned, such as fast travelling, are entirely optional. You dont have to use it if you do not want to. If you are here, arguing that fast travel degrades from the game, you chose to play the game you thought "the developers wanted". Simply put, it could have been easy enough to use the map as a reference only and not for fast travelling. Fast travel is an option put in for users who do not have tons of hours to spend exploring. My epiphany during Oblivion over the "Morrowinds MQ was longer" was that there was a very different fast traveling system in Morrowind that made the TRAVEL TIME longer. Actually looking back, Morrowinds MQ was probably only slightly longer then Oblivions in actual dungeon delving and Oblivion was a lot more sided toward dungeons rather then Morrowind. Skyrim seems to have followed suit in this regard.

Now the compass is an evil we cannot get around and I do think, because it isnt optional, it can take away from the experience. The idea of discovery pivots when you can simply follow the compass. I think there is a valid criticism that the compass system as quite taken away from the game in its regards to basically taking players from Point A to Point B to Point C to THIS IS HOW YOU COMPLETE THE QUEST, rather then having the player actually needing to traverse the dungeon themselves. However, in the overworld, due to the limitations of sight distance the compass can be seen more as a visual aid. Simply put, there are things you wouldnt see due to sight distance depending on graphics capabilities that you could see in RL or with stronger graphics. Because this makes discovery harder, the developers may have chose an easier option to discovering sites. So whil;e the quest objectives being highlighted by the compass can degenerate from the experience, I think its use in the overworld is a need, especially in a world size of Skyrims scale. Hopefully the RPG enthusiasts will have mods that come out which cam remove these features to bring us back to a more Morrowind type feel, for those who want that type of gameplay.

The best thing I can say to the intelligence = reward idea is that it never existed in Morrowind. Morrowind was about Your Level vs Creatures level. At level one, yuou could get owned by rats and skeletons and at lvl 25 you were playing Cant Touch This this almost every monster, maybe except Almalexia. There is a simple fact that in Morrowind the game basically ended at level 20. While all the discovery in the world was fun, without mob scaling, it got boring. It was always about your level, not about your intelligence. I would argue that Oblivion and Skyrim have more to do with intelligence then Morrowind. Yes, Morrowinds quest system was a lot more involved, but tackling any group of mobs in Morrowind was about brute force. In Skyrim and Oblivion, you have to actually know about your foes (less Oblivion). A Storm Atronach wont take Lightning Damage, dont attack Spider Daedra head on until you kill their small summons, Dodge, dont block Clannfear or they will stagger you easily. I have come to realize that Oblivions combat system and now SKyrims were mass improvements over Morrowind and their heavy criticism is unwarranted. The hack and slash of an RPG is expected at the low levels, but unless you like potion chugging, you actually need to have strategies at the higher levels in both Oblivion and Skyrim (unless your Min/Maxing). There are gamebreaking points in all three games, and if you wish to go that route its your wish but this is still about how you wish to tackle the game.

The UI. I agree, entirely, wont even elaborate.

The Dungeons are much improved from both Morrowind and Oblivion. Do you want to go back to the dungeon systems of either game? They were both terrible. Atleast in Skyrim you come upon some type of challenging puzzle in the game, even if they are simple. Neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had that kind of challenge with exception to one or two dungeons that everyone points to as the pinnacle of dungeon puzzles. Sorry, but the game isnt one or two dungeons, its the 100s of dungeons in the game. Morrowind was godawful when iot came to in-dungeon puzzles. Oblivion was elss but still awful when it came to dungeon puzzles. 80% of both games dungeons were simply run it, kill everything, run out. Atleast I can say about 30-40% of skyrims dungeons ahad some kind of puzzle to them. This is a definite improvement.

Stat system. Stats were so, minute to gameplay. Its always been about your Skill level. Strength was just a smokescreen for raw damage and carry ability, intelligence mana, agility stagger and damage, speed -_-, Luck is luck. Id say Wisdom was probablky the only real interesting stat in Oblivion for its magic resist buff and mana regen. The replacement of the oither stats will a skillpoint system for your skill was a fair tradeoff. Oh and I forgot Endurance, Heath multiplier. (SUch a backward system because if yuo were a fronline warrior, you were punished for not maxxing this in the earlier levels, sacrificing Agility (stagger resistance) and Strength unless you min/maxxed. The freedom to build the character you want to build, I hail as one of the best things Skyrim ever brought.

For the TL;DR's summary
-Fast Travel is optional
-Quest Compass could be taken out, but it helps discovery for those who lack the necessary graphics cards to see longer dustances
-Morrowind was a hack and slash and it was about level, not intelligence. Oblivion and SKyriom require more monster intelligence then Morrowind when it comes to combat
-The UI svcks, I know
-Skyrim an improvement on Dungeons, more puzzles less kill all and leave (still has plenty of that though)
-Stat system was minor to character development, fair trade for Skill, Point system and Health/Magicka/Stamina

It is a bad time to be a gamer if you are an old school gamer who enjoys depth, intricate;y made games... It's all about the instant gratification... I like modern games as much as the next guy, but no doubt a lot of the charm is being lost along the way, sense of discovery and accomplishment is dying. The game industry getting so big is going to water it down like the music industry has experience.

Oblivion was amazing, the soundtrack and everything, I tried playing Morrowind but I just couldn't after playing Oblivion, but sure everyone has there own opinions, and no Liverpool aren't average We have SUAREZ.

WRONG . Dungeons have set level ranges. So if your level ten you can go into a level 20 to 25 dungeon. The dungeon will be level 20 while you are level 10. Don't comment on things you know nothing about. And o your other points I was simply proving his statements wrong. Which they were. I wasn't trying to say skyrim is more like morrowind than oblivion.