You clearly haven't played skyrim yet. Because once you visit a dungeon, it's level is locked, so you can come back later and have an easier time. Moreover, there's lots of quests that I postponed for some time, like quests where you face spriggans and bears. Just wait several levels and you'll have an easy time. I think people are underestimating how static much of the game is.

Sadly, your tl;dr post, which seems well thought out, seemed to miss the fundamental concept that game developers have caught on to but some players who I would categorize yourself as a part of have not.

The average person doesn't have time. To do anything.

Do you know why a game like Magic the Gathering so instantly and ridiculously caught the imagination of millions of D&D players all over the world in the span of like a year and is stretching out to two decades?

It's because you can get the experience in 15 minute intervals.

This isn't an instant gratification thing. It's not like, say a movie that is paced like Star Wars to hold your attention. It's a time management thing. It's why Star Control II was (and still is) widely considered the greatest game ever made - because the game gave you something to do and enjoy along the way, and cut down the tediousness of the work or attention you needed to do/give to get to that enjoyment.

That doesn't mean you can't have a long and over-arching end-game that might take you hundreds of hours to complete, but what it does mean is that I can't spend 10 minutes creating my own map or reading over a diary of my own notes because soon it's going to be time to have dinner. Then it's going to be time to tuck in the kids. Then it's going to be time to work out at the gym. Then, tomorrow, I have to put up the Christmas lights. Or go to a party.

A game like Morrowwind, to really enjoy it, required you to generally sit down for hours at a time (sometimes) before there was any kind of pay off. Sure I think the pay off was pretty good, but honestly that might take me 3, 4 or 5 sessions before something happens that actually makes me want to sit down again.

The number of people who have and can create that time without failing some other, more important part of their life are simply too few to build a game around. Game developers have caught on to this in basically the same organic way that every other entertainment medium has.

tl;dr - the gaming industry has evolved to it's gross market. And the market doesn't have a lot of chances for marathon sessions.

That's always been the main disappointment in these games tbh. The game space has always felt contrived or 2d, which is fine if most of the game goes on in your head. But not so fine if you consider how simple it would be to apply some polish in these areas.

First I want to say, hot dayyuumm, that was long. I absolutely love Skyrim and yes Morrowind was my first TES game. I agree with many of your thoughts, especially the leveling system, it was awesome to randomly get a daedric item in Morrowind when clearly you shouldnt have one and it really helped you out. That is something I would love to see in the game, however, the quest marker thing I kind of (yes kind of) disagree, please dont kill me. Morrowind being my first TES game, I was super overwhelmed to start the game, and as I went throughout the main quest, I got lost at times, or didn't remember where I had to go, or couldnt even find it, but then again that could be just being an idiot. I digress, in conclusion, I do agree with many of your points, especially leveling, ohhhh gosh do I miss that. Great read!

Wait..wat? I think your game is broken...everybody in my game knows that im from the college and some dragonborn dude.
Also show me a sandbox game with better ai than this.

I started with Morrowind as my introduction to TES. I loved the game, the sense of freedom was fantastic.

However while some statements in the OP I agree with completely I do think nostalgia is playing a part here. Morrowind had it's flaws, and a lot of them. So does Skyrim, and like Morrowind patches and little bits from Bethesda will help and the modding community will finish.
Morrowind had scaling (not as obvious and the better gear was never found in a scaling dungeon).
Morrowind had fast travel options (spells and striders - granted not the current implementation but equally it's an option, one I myself have refrained from using in Skyrim).

I agree Skyrim has become more streamlined, I no longer care about leveling and focus more on exploring and leveling comes as a byproduct of that. I see that as a bonus, and thus far I have found the game more immersive because more things get done 'under the hood' without the scrutinisation of stat points and resists. There are things I miss, as I said the game is not perfect but mods may well help that as they have done in the past once the creation kit is out. So far I actually prefer Skyrim over Morrowind (gasp!).

As to the path games companies are taking, it's obvious. In this wonderful commercial driven world we live people will go where the money is, and that is in production of games that cater to the wider audience figures. At least this game series allows for heavy modding so if people dislike aspects they can find, or create, their nirvanna or as close as the game will allow (and in doing so rectify 'designer oversights'.

I really didnt know about this. If it is true, I would be very happy.



They only say these basic things. Play a little more and see if they will change..no matter what you do, you will always be a novice. New vegas has a better AI. Games like witcher 2, dragon age and mass effect too. Of course these games have a limited number of NPCs, but Bethesda could have prepared at least 10-15 NPCs with better AI.

I miss moral choices on this game as well.

Unfortunately, for all its hype, the much vaunted radiant ai is pretty dire so far, at least.

That is a good point. The average age of players is increasing, and so are their real-life obligations that reduce the time available for playing games. Therefore games that can be played in short sessions while still accomplishing something will naturally be more succesful, and the industry responds to that demand.

The thing is, I'm not whining, I'm delicately trying to explain my problem in a detailed way. Whining is unpurposed and vague. Similarly, I LOVE change. I would have loved a new type of Assassin guild, new weapon types, new abilities other than smithing, new spellcrafting mechanisms, bigger battles, quests that revolved around you building a town (like I thought Bloodmoon proved so popular), but instead it's not change in a positive sense, it's reduction. It's the taking away of key game design aspects that greatly inform the tone of the entire game and replacing them with much more infantile substitutes. Duel wielding is fantastic, as is the housing additions. Aside from that, I'm having trouble seeing where (apart from graphically and in the character look) the game has changed a whole lot. I mean, we don't even have horseback combat or the ability to properly define a village into a town, or anything else that I was really expecting to see by now. In fact, the fighters guild is now only six quests, and you get inducted into the inner circle on your second.

Things have changed, but I'm in no way against actual progressive change.

Thank you for your essay.
It was a joy to read and I agree on most if not all points.
You have said it better than I ever could and I hope someone upstairs takes notice.

It is similar/better than OB. And exactly what I thought it would be. Believing the stuff PR shouts out is only oneselfs fault.

The big difference here for me was that I didn't walk away from those instant death encounters saying "I can combat this, or, I can grow and challenge this, or I can work out a way around this using magic, potions, distraction, whatever", I walked away going "one more level and I'll be in the bracket". That's my problem. I'm always aware of scaling, especially when said bandits begin carrying Ebony Sword of Burning. Also, the want to actually go in the fort is lessened by the fact that although they're really strong bandits, I'm only ever going to find something in my armour range which I can easily get doing anything else.

Dungeons level lock as soon as you enter them. If you enter at a low level, come back at a high level, the enemies will still be low level.

I think Syrim is awesome and has improved the series but some feel Morrowind was more truly an open world which allowed for more subtle game play. Not sure what I think yet.


I haven't reached a verdict on how open Skyrim is to be honest. It feels very free but a lot of the mechanics are so very different it is difficult to compare exactly. For instance, can I sneak invisibly past some more powerful dragon priests to get shouts? Not sure yet.

i have to disagree about saying in Morrowind you don't know who you are at the start. It is very clear from near the begining who you are. There are the dreams quite early on. And in Skyrim I was 10 hours or so in before I was summoned to the greybeards.

And I do like things such as bandit forts etc which makes it feel more sensible than just living in caves.

One thing I also don't quite agree on are things like fast travel and circular dungeon design. Fast travel suits a style of play, and for those doing quests who want to "fetch" and then return quickly for the next quest it is useful. It is not necessary to use it, and I have just ignored it so far since the game world looks so nice. In MW fetch quests got very tedious walking back to the same town time after time. But you know, just ignore it. It does suit some play styles and it seems unfair to ask for features I want and expect others to ignore without me doing the same with this.

Partly the same with the GPS, but I would like to see an on/off lickbox for this myself.

And circular dungeon design. Some of the dungeons are quite big and running back through several sections of dungeon is unnecessarily tedious when it's not really necessary. I can't see forcing that running back through actually adds to the game at all so def. can't agree.

As for level scaling, with you there. Shouldn't happen. Much better in Skyrim than Oblivion was, and some places I definitely can't go yet with my lvl16 character. But there could be more of that, espcially with loot.

I only just registered here today as you can see.
The reason for that was to share the exact same thoughts you so eloquently posted here...so thanks for sparing me that effort.
I couldn't possibly have done it any better.
Do i like ("love" is such a strong word) the game ?
Absolutely !
But the alarm bells rang when character creation was nothing but giving a premade char a facelift and a mustache.
I already knew then, that the whole core RPG bit had taken a back seat in favor of the holy grail that is "accessibility" nowadays.....i'd usually use a less flattery term, but let's not.
Your statement that "the icing IS the cake" hits the proverbial nail on it's proverbial head really.
And gosh, i certainly enjoy the icing. But i also know, that before very long (not quite yet), i will crave some good oldfashioned cake.
That'll be the day Skyrim will prove unable to deliver.
Here's the worrying bit, and you briefly addressed that as well.
Skyrim isn't the first and surely not the last game to go the way of "streamlining" and "accessibility".
It's an ever stronger growing trend to appease the "bottom line".
Also we have to take into account a new generation of gamers compared to the days of Morrowind or even earlier TES games.
I don't want to generalize too much, but there's a growing "i-can't-be-arsed" crowd of players now, who prefer games with flatlined learning curves and instant gratification. (Ok, go on fellas....i can take the heat :flame: )
And they outnumber old farts like me now, and therefor it's them that will be catered for in the future.
Again....thanks for your post, ope. It gave me that comfy "ThankGodIAmNotTheOnlyoneThinkingThatWay"-feeling. :wink_smile:

o/

And whether you like it or not, OP, he's absolutely right. Skyrim, and to some extent Oblivion, are both games that the average person can sit down, spend half an hour in, and walk away feeling like they had a lot of fun and accomplished something. Bethesda is also starting to trend towards more deeply felt interactions with the world and NPCs, and that's going to put even more butts in the seats. They are starting to branch out into a lot of really good directions, and I can't wait to see where they take it in DLC.

The days where grindfests were king are over. Life is moving forward faster than ever, and with more advlts gaming (because let's face it, the ones our age are the ones who created this world to begin with), developers need to balance things around smaller chunks of time.

The whole gothic series, even G3 as buggy as it was had a way more developed world in how NPC's reacted and how your actions changed the world around you.

Yes it was over hyped from the beginning, and that wasnt a big surprise after oblivion. But its not bad, miles ahead from oblivion actually. like people know what weapons and armor you are wearing.

@bigspleen
G1 and 2 had better AI than 3... But yeah it was good, but it also had much less people and most of them didnt do almost anything. But it was at the time Morrowind was created so it was pretty amazing at that point.

G1 was not as open world as OB/Skyrim. Or am I wrong? It was more restricted regarding where to go.

Well first of all congratulations for a well thought out essay (yes you can call it that, definitely), that didn′t seem like a wall of text at all.

I never played Morrowind, didn′t like Obilivion, but currently find myself enjoying Skyrim quite a lot. My previous RPG history includes The Fallout series ("Tactics and BoS not included..) from the beginning and then some random rpg:s here and there.

Now, even though I have 0 experience in Morrowind, you were able to sum up the differences between it and newer installments and I have to say, that in some pseudo-level, I do agree.

What it′s all about of course, is money. Studios like Bethesda (maybe all of them?) are VERY dependant on each and every one of their publications in the way, that one mis-step can well run down the whole company. This is the same with "post-big five era" Hollywood film studios, that after losing their chance (end of top-down monopoly = production, distribution and exhibition) to gain revenue from distribution and exhibition, were forced to produce those BIG HOLLYWOOD FILMS we all know and hate, starting with Jaws, with the Transformers kind of movies as a more current example. This is because after losing a big portion of their chance for revenue, every movie had to make it in the box-office, or else the whole studio would fail. The birth of TV also played a part, but this is not a topic on the history of the cinema..

So anyway, game studios are a plenty nowadays, which means fierce competition, which doesn′t mean better games, but more popular ones, which to some (like you for example) means the death of "real games". Less and less is left to the effort and intelligence of the player in order to avoid the game seeming like a mess, resulting in the types of issues you talk about in your post. It is a sad state of affairs among our beloved form of media, but it is not something that will likely take a different road anytime soon, although there will always be exceptions from the brave.

Skyrim is an exceptional game, far better than most, and it is a sandbox game, which gives us as players atleast some control over our gaming experiences. I′d advice you to pick the best you can (judging from the end of your post you have done this already ) and wait for those rare gems of games that sometimes appear. The tricky thing is though, that once those games become popular, they get more money, more investors, more fierce boardroom meetings and finally end up exactly where Bethesda is heading.

But then there will always, hopefully, be a new studio, and a a new idea...

G2 and 3 were as big and open as any TES game.

agree , i played it straight after daggerfall and just went back to daggerfall.

OP: How much freaking free time do you people have writing out 1,000 word essays on this crap!? I hope you got some kind of satisfaction getting all of that out of your system. Enjoy the game, don't enjoy the game fine whatever but Bethesda is a business and has to make a profit in order to continue making games. If you think Morrowind is a better game then play Morrowind! Your whole intelligence argument eliminates the largest market in America: dumb people! "Ohhhh a dragon! Ohhhh a sword!" /buy Skyrim.

This is not a trite dismissal of the OP's points because many are well articulated, I do however suggest a few tweaks to change your gaming experience:

• Increase the difficulty to maximum or even "dead is dead" this will return that sense of fear to the game.
  
• Usa FXAA to change gamma settings, the darkening of the environment creates a better sense of isolation and also makes magelight worth a damn as well as increasing the artistic nature of the game.
  
• Do not invest in smithing or enchanting, it is game breaking mid game onwards.
  
• Hang on for the release of compass removal and map marker removal tools.