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But on to the issue, I actually think skyrim improved on this compared to oblivion. There are now lots of places that are downright unforgiving, and there is static loot you can get excited about.

Also the reason for the character creator being only about race and looks is because they took the TES idea of "your character is how you play it" another step further now. There's no point to selecting a class/birthsign because you effectively do those things during the game. I like that change myself, and it's also nice for people who don't have much time to play the game. Because they probably had bad experiences with sinking several hours into a character only to find out he was gimped. Not every bit of streamlining has to be a bad thing. And remember that because TES games get so streamlined and do offer some instant gratification, bethesda softworks has been getting bigger and bigger and are able to make more and more content for TES games.

I entirely understand this, I really do. However, I am an advlt, and I am a very busy person. I often can find only 20 minutes to play at any one time. Obviously though, I set aside time to play at release as my SO is currently overseas. Really though, my problem is that if they're attempting to appeal to advlts, then I'm already dissatisfied. The empty exposition telling me I'm awesome, the unempathetic characters who I don't give a toss about, the juvenile and thoughtless smithing system (which, in itself, is going to take up a whole lot of time with monotonous menu clicking), the fact that every character in the game is voiced by something like ten, very recognisable voice actors from the Bay area, the fact that, as I said, the Assassins guild hides its base little better than a lemonade stand.

Just because we're advlts, and we have things to do, doesn't mean that entertainment must become dumb. I don't read dumb books because I don't have the time to read smart ones. I don't watch dumb films, because I don't have the time to watch smart ones. I don't have time to play dumb/er games because I don't have the time to play smart ones.

In the history of brand management you can track the fall of brands as soon as they start to try to do something that they're not famous and loved for. As soon as they move from their strengths, the brand begins to fail. Obviously, Morrowind wasn't perfect, Oblivion far from it, and Skyrim is not bad at all, however, the original feel of Morrowind, the thing that I think a lot of players have found missing since then (look at the history of the forums and you'll see it isn't an issue that's going away) is still not rectified, and the ways the game can be progressed are receiving little love.

I think that's really only if you exploit potions, too, to circularly fortify things. I use smithing and enchanting with no alchemy or bought potions, but I didn't take any of the smithing perks except steel and arcane (just so I could enhance enchanted gear), so I can't make crazy armor. It feels quite balanced for me on expert.

I tend to agree with the OP, I would of liked to have seen different solutions to puzzles, that would test my decision to build a melee character...

To give an example during a quest I am told I have to sneak and find an item... Once I was detected I just killed everyone and the map pointer told me where the item was... I would of preferred to be thrown out of the building and then have to sneak my way back in using lock picks and then actually have to spend time searching drawers and cupboards to find the item...

Which brings me to a dungeon I completed last night... I had a claw given to me (well sitting on a table) as soon as I walked in... Went thought the dungeon and the last door needed the claw.. Where is the puzzle in that? its the 5 ish time I have seen the claw lock puzzle...

Do get me wrong, loved morrowind, loved oblivion, loving skyrim... It's just that the game has changed for both good and bad reasons!

Good post OP.

And the people who flame the OP telling him to stop expressing his opinion because it probably in some weird way insults them, or those who mention "nostalgia" and other silly things fail to realise this is constructive criticism and if they get annoyed by it while they are not the ones who created the game, they should consult their psychiatrist. They also need to realise that community's views must be voiced and even sometimes influence choices of the company itself on their games' development.

you deserve a cookie

No one that knew what they were doing ever used pre-made classes in a TES game. They just removed an unnecessary step. As far as the major/minor skills system goes, that was ALWAYS flawed; in order to maximize your potential, you basically had to NOT specialize in the things you wanted to use.

[quote] the fact that, as I said, the Assassins guild hides its base little better than a lemonade stand. [/endquote]


Comedy gold <3

"Put simply, Oblivion and Skyrim (to a lesser degree) were designed for time = reward. Morrowind was designed, primarily, for intelligence = reward. "


That's where I stopped reading. Can someone who read it all tell me how elitist this dude's post was?


As far as I'm concerned, Skyrim fixed all of the annoyances of other Elder Scrolls games, and added things I never knew I wanted so badly.

I agree with everything that the op said. It would be awesome if the next TES game would return to the more classic RPG style, but sadly I think It will be even more streamlined. Not to say that I don't like Skyrim, because I enjoy it immensely.

At least It's comforting to know that the more challenging elements will most likely arrive with mods later on.

I don,t think Bethesda sold out per se, it just is flowing with the times. This generation of young people are moving at a faster pace. They might not want to slog through areas if they don't have to. Ease of use does not mean selling out. I have played TES since the Arena days and have seen it evolve into something more than just a game. From going from making your own maps and keeping notes, the game now does it. Freeing more time for you to explore the land of Tamriel. I understand the OP's thoughts on this thread and just thought I would throw my 2 cents in as well.

Raed

Morrowind was in fact a better game, Skyrim still is addicting for me though and I feel far more involved in Skyrim and immersed as well. Morrowind was great, everyone knows that. But I felt more like an outsider looking in when playing Morrowind rather than Skyrim where I feel like that character.
Both are great games, and Morrowind will always hold a special place for me.

I agree that Skyrim has its problems with being streamlined and everybody have the right to say their opinion about it. And thats good thing because as we can see with Oblivion vs Skyrim, Bethedsa team has learned something about this kind of things. But most people here thinks that Morrowind was the ultimate perfect RPG and anything else than it is horrible piece of [censored], what else could you call that than nostalgia? fanboyism?

Morrowind was definitely more challenging...so was Oblivion for that matter, but Skyrim is much more fun than either of those games were. That's my take on it right now. This is not to say that Skyrim doesn't have problems..it certainly does. The fact that I'm a level 14 Archmage is one of them.

Turn off your compass, quest markers, and crosshair.

Feels much better just remember not to fast travel

Correct.

Since we're hilariously injecting philosophy and human nature into an argument that doesn't call for it, let me throw in my two cents. Humans will oppose change when they believe that it will lead to less than desirable results, especially when they have reference information available. Oblivion and Skyrim, while they obviously have better graphic engines and some other miscellaneous new features; had taken a step back in terms of functionality and content. Don't let it be said, however, that I'm not a fan of any of these games. I love Oblivion (kudos to all the wonderful modders) and I'm really digging Skyrim. But we're trying to put lipstick on a pig when we claim that Morrowind is inferior or somehow a devolved version of Skyrim.

I completely disagree with this post. After playing through Morrowind several times, I did check wiki to see what I missed. the only thing that I had missed during game play was Azura's star - everything else was discovered on my own. I will not check it for Skyrim either, though it is much easier to find things than it was in Morrowind. I also don't consider some blighted enemies on the road as level scaling when you reach higher levels.

To the OP - great piece! I am with you 100%. I am really enjoying Skyrim, and will for a long time, but it certainly does not have the same feeling of reward that Morrowind did.

You say Morrowind was "in fact" a better game, but then you go on to state why Skyrim is better.

If you think Skyrim is better, just say it!! You're not alone! You have friends! :foodndrink:

Totaly agree. I'm sort of in some zone inbetween because while I agree with everything the OP said, when you get right down to it I love Skyrim, I'm completetly immersed in the game world the story, the dragons, the shouts.. atmosphere.. it all amounts to a great gaming experiance despite the fact that in indeed is a much simpler game with all facts by the OP holding true. Its just a different experiance but no less fun and I'm loving it.

I don't think nostalgia goggles apply to Morrowind. It had its share of dire hangups (like the neversleeping NPCs and hideous character models), but it had a truckload of RPG "soul". I remember trudging to Balmora early on, which took for-bloody-ever, because I was too cheap to ride the Siltstrider. Or getting lost in the sandstorm somewhere in Vvardenfell wastes, wandering for what seemed like hours, and OH MY GOOD LOOK IT'S A CAVE, I can slaughter whatever is inside and sleep through the storm, hurrah.

And flying, and uber-acrobatics, and all the other crazy stuff you could do, and even cliffracers. Yes, even those damned rats with wings.

Freedom is good. Complexity is good. Difficulty (in reasonable dozes) is also good. It's harder to manage than the standard modern fare, but it's good. And people don't mind it, oddly enough - even console players which have long been derided as kiddies who needed hand-holding 100% of the time. Just look at Demons' Souls and Dark Souls, those are pure console titles that don't just abuse the player, they take the player down a dark alley, take his lunch money AND his underwear, and then shove him into the nearest window headfirst. Both titles are hard as all get out, and both are rocking in sales.

I wish gamesas gave the players of all ages and platforms a bit more credit.

OP definitely has a point. It doesn't mean I like Oblivion, Skyrim or Morrowind any less/more, but I can definitely see and agree with what you are saying to some extent.

I'm not sure if you're on the PC or not, but my solution would just be mod the game until it is exactly how you want it if you are.

I agree with this entirely. You've summed it up really nicely for me. Many here assume that making it as dumb as possible will increase sales the most. Realistically, it won't. It will in the short term, like COD, but I'd vouch that a few more games down the line and you might be looking at the death of a franchise. The key to all business is to find something and do it very well. As soon as you start to move from that (without your consumers giving criticism), you'll see mixed results before an eventual loss of value in your product. Gaming applies to many, many people and the idea that every game should be made for one low attention span type of player is a shortsighted business plan that currently dominates the game industry. Like every other industry, there needs to be ends to the market to cater for different people. Sure, Morrowind might have been too obscure or hard, but, on recommending the game, the big turn off was the combat system and wooden NPC's, not the map system or monster difficulty. In any case, where are the gamers who want more than the basic going to go to get it?

If you don't consider enemies getting stronger as you level up "level scaling", then what do you consider as level scaling? Because I've sure encountered less of it in skyrim. I seem to be facing the same enemies regardless of my level.

As for the rest of the point, yes you can discover lots of cool things by yourself in morrowind, just like you can in skyrim. But the point is that in morrowind it often feels like an exploit to me. By playing smart you can still get awesome things done in skyrim before many other people are able to do it.

I can't help but agree with the OP, not because I find Skyrim to be a bad game (I really do enjoy everything except the incomplete faction and main quest design), but because Morrowind, for all it's technological constraints and means to cheating yourself into powerful items and lots of money, left you on your own for just about everything and many things required a firm understanding of your goal before you pursued it.

Of course, all that intellectual stimulation ran out once you mastered the game, knew the ways to get rich fast and find powerful items you shouldn't have at level 1-5, and exploited game mechanics to, say, take out the Camonna Tong at the Club in Balmora without gaining a bounty.

The simple truth is, while Morrowind had, as a first-time play experience, the best of all three as long as you did things on your own and didn't use UESP to hold your hand through the game. Oblivion started the whole trend with instant gratification in travel-to-reward, and Skyrim continues the legacy. Where Oblivion/Skyrim and scaling are more effective than Morrowind is in sheer replayability and an evolving world. While I've played Morrowind about 6 or 8 times, I've completely destroyed Oblivion at least 10-12 and I expect to play Skyrim just as much. The reason? Yeah, I'm upset at certain design philosophies and the feeling that the Factions and Main Quests are too small to fully immerse myself in, but the leveling systems have improved, the graphics are beautiful and the towns and wilderness are alive. The perk system let's you enjoy new and innovative ways to play while still maintaining some degree of the old-school min-maxing, crafting has vastly improved (While I admit...milling, cooking and chopping wood is pointless - not to mention all the farms offering a pittance for pointless labor).

All that being said, in an ideal world some intrepid modder will make Morrowind again with the Skyrim engine and we'll have the best of both worlds

I knew Goldeneye was going to come up, and it's perfect example of gamer nostalgia overriding game quality. Back then it was awesome, now? It's the worst thing you could ever play. You turn like you're encased in ice, the controls are just complete crap among other things.