The game being made by the same cats that worked on FO 1 and 2 (or at least 2) is awesome, and I wasn't disappointed, even with my high-expectations until I came to a sudden realization after completing most of the Faction quests: There is no 100% diplomatic "solution" to the Mojave situation.

In FO 1 and 2, you could (though you have to have some unofficial mods to fix the problems with many quests) complete without firing a shot and making everyone like each other (or at least tolerate each other and be better for it) making you like Ghandi of the Wasteland. But New Vegas doesn't allow this. You have to choose. You have what essentially boils down to four choices: NCR, Independance, Legion, or Yourself. You can not, for instance, get both the Legion and NCR to back down and come to some sort of peace agreement, even if it would just be who controls what side of the Colorado. It's not like Caesar is not a reasonable man. He is pretty intelligent, and if you could-through a show of force obviously-convince him that it would be wiser to have NCR as an ally, they could seem to be a separate part of his army, but they would be like a dog on a leash (or so you should be able to tell him).

If you're persuasive enough, you should be able to appeal to everyone and make them see the bigger picture in the end. If they are reasonable. True, there could be some fringe groups out there, led by a bullheaded idiot that will NEVER join your cause and they would have to be dealt with; but they would die out with that kind of leadership in the end anyway, without interference from anyone else. Being vague on purpose, there is already a group in the game that most people want to destroy and are bullheaded enough to make you want to agree with them; but there IS a completely diplomatic solution around them (though for some it is bugged) so why couldn't that extend deeper?

That isn't to say I don't thoroughly enjoy the story of the game; it's pretty damn impressive. It's got all the colors of a monochromatic rainbow except for the big one I am talking about here, it's full of humor, and it's really, really well thought out. Maybe it's just to appeal to a larger market where there has to be a clear evil. The Legion is clearly "evil" and they don't just threaten the NCR, but every group in the Mojave. Traditionally, stories like this usually have some hidden meaning or moral lesson to be learned, but in the past the Fallout games' moral lessons were much more profound, and deeper, and took much thought to fully understand the wisdom in them. Is this a bad thing? No, not necessarily. I just was expecting that same sort of unique story telling I had come to love in the original games and not a good, but "mass-marketed" plot.

Because New Vegas is like the real world, you cant do that. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, there is no way in hell that youll get everybody to be buddy buddy and bring peace to Earth. Obsidian is sending that message, and they are doing a damn good job of it. Its just reality friend, I'll quote one of the first things you hear in the game

"Seems like no matter where I go folks just never seem to leave each other alone."

-Doc Mitchell

Its a sad, sad truth.

I found the Caesar's Legion's morals to be rather down to earth and even noble to a certain extent, it is simply they way that they impose their laws that make them much more "evil"

All in all, I rather like that Caesar's Legion, and the beliefs they share are very surprising indeed. :fallout:

True, but just like FO1 and 2, you can get them to CO-OPERATE. At least for a while. Things fall apart eventually until someone new can show everyone a better way. Besides all that, the Doc quote I see more as a challenge to the Courier. If you're playing a straight up goody-two-shoes, you scoff at the notion that there's no peaceful resolution to everything, and in the past that was one of the main things that made the games great. It's still one of the things that make New Vegas great; it just doesn't extend to 100% complete "victory." Instead you get all the "misunderstood" factions to join forces and destroy the "ultimate evil."

Edit: The fact that anyone can say they think Caesar's morals are logical and down to Earth scares me and makes me believe that there are lot of racist, sixist members on the board. The guy imposes slavery (and not just work for me or I will kill you, it's a form of [censored] torture; just look at the packs all the slaves carry around in his camp), treats all females like lesser beings, and employs "peace through power" tactics. Romans used slavery too, yes, but their treatment of slaves was more like indentured servitude than the cruelty Caesar shows and the Romans were also pretty progressive in how women were treated.

Eh, I just cant get along with them. Not to say that the NCR is any diffirent but I prefer them over the Legion. Mainly because there only answers are slaughter and crucification. I agree with them about the people they kill, but the torture and all that is going just a bit far, I am a fan of justice, TRUE justice. Imagine this: The Legion killed your entire family because your brother was a powder ganger, I would make sure that those responsible would meet an end at my hand, or, at the barrel of my smoking 44. And also, I cant shake the fact that they are very influenced by the Romans, and if you know your history, then youd know that both them and the Greeks were big fans of bysixual orgys.

I have to disagree. Mostly due to the fact that the competing ideologies of NCR and Legion are so far apart that to have such an extreme "peaceful" solution seem very, very, very out of place. Why would a slave mongering death machine that has met 86 tribes and taken over them ALL ever agree to work with a weak "democracy and freedom" government that is NCR? In FO1 and 2 (if memory serves) there were never any LARGE main story factions butting heads in size and scope that we see in FONV. FO1 the master and his army aren't running into many obstetricals (save for a reclusive botherhood) and the Enclave are operating in relative secrecy and small groups.

I finished the game with a "diplomatic" solution by talking down the Legate (after fighting him, and getting killed many, many, times) and he went packing to the east vowing to return...or not. By and large this feels (to me) the most natural thing for that faction to do. They arent peaceful and they sure as hell dont like ANYTHING that the NCR has to offer...

I like the progression the the fallout games have been taking, in FO1 and FO2. In both it seems that some people were just trying to SURVIVE the bleak hell-hole that is the end of the world, it lessened in FO2 and now in FO3 (the REAL FO3) with these big goverments taking care of people ( relatively and in varying degrees) more thought is moved toward the competing ideologies of both sides.

Hmm, this thread should probably move as there is potential for spoilers; However, I will make my reply in such a way as to hopefully avoid any spoilers.

imo it would take something much bigger than any threat currently faced by both the NCR and CL for them to work together in any way shape or forn. Caesar is possibly reasonable to a point but I think any way of getting NCR and CL to come to any form of peace agreement at this stage would need to be pretty contrived and not feel right.

I'd say more but at the moment this is in the NV general discussion forum and I want to avoid making any spoilers.

Also I'm not sure what kind of sleepy dream world you're living in, but Fallout 1 + 2 treat speech and positive karma in much the same way as Vegas. You can resolve the problems of individual communities positively with speech and friendly responses, but in neither of the old games do you do anything differently at endgame. You don't make the Master 'get along' with anyone, neither do you do so with the Enclave. your use of the old games as evidence is flawed.

I just said [censored] it, I'm killing all of you. I gained the Legions trust only so I could betray them, I took good care of the Boomers, if you ask me it had to be done. If I couldnt convence them that completely cutting them selves off from the rest of the world by trying to blow them up just wasnt the answer, I figured that it would be a better idea to just stop them right there. As for factions like the BoS, I just helped them out and let them be, there not really bothering anybody. I took up with the NCR, mostly because I couldnt bring myself to kill innocent people just because I believe that there should be no one ruleing faction. It brings back to the Civil War, the South wanted states rights, and the North didnt. If you ask me, states rights is the most American thing there is, thats how it was SUPPOSED to be, the president was meant to be more like a manager than a ruler. But anyways, I decided that I should just take what I could get eventually.

I understand the reasons for not including it, I am just disappointed that they went with that route and didn't have some way to fit in a way to make the two groups co-exist.

Also, I'm expecting the deep story telling to come into play with the DLC.

Swish Lizard you said it yourself, in FO1 and FO2 it was only unoffical mods of the game that allowed you to beat it in that way (i.e. not the way intended).

the problem is that Caesar's Legion the "Bad Guy" and NCR is the "Good Guy" regardless of how they tried to twist the meanings of both. while NCR is not so defined in the good guy role, there is absolutely no identifying Caesar's Legion with good. it is not possible as soon as the terms "[censored]" "pillage" and "slavers" comes up. the way they have both factions set up there just is no way to have peace between them, or have them work together for the "common good"

it would be nice for more ambiguous bad guys, like the BoS.

I never spoke to Caesar personally, I had Boone as a companion and when I tried to get near their turf, I was met with hostility. So I thought, screw this, and wiped them out, man for man, till I breached the HQ and gave Caesar a taste of my Anti-Material Rifle. Looking back, I should've been slightly more diplomatic in my approach to the Legion, but since my first encounter with them at Nipton, I decided I wasn't prepared to deal with a bunch of barbaric Romans. Oh, and despite not talking with Caesar, I'm pretty sure destroying towns and crucifying people is enough to warrant the Legion the title of the Bad Guys. And, as said, because of the massive gulf between each factions interests and methods, combined with the tension that had already been built up from the previous battle of Hoover Dam, I don't think a diplomatic solution would've been feasible between the two groups.

Caesar's Legion might be down to earth and have some noble ideas, but I seriously cannot rally behind someone who sells women as wives, men as worker slaves, kills the old and weak and tortures pretty much anyone who pisses them off.

I don't care what their idiology is, it's what they do that defines them.

Agreed and I think this is one of the very few things on which Obsidian fell short - As a good character I've found no way to justify helping CL in any way, shape or form and, instead, made it a point to attack them whenever I see them.

I was really hoping for a Pitt style dilemma...