How did this become a debate about the Enclave? Its supposed to be about those Evil BoS

The BOS at East Coast are good people, but they shoot ghouls on sight..... yeah,

Enclave are evil but they want to restore the US glory of the old days

Legion are more of an anti-villain then just evil

There is a big difference between evil with standards (Legion, Enclave, MWBOS), and EVULZ!!! (Raiders)

I never bought the term of "good is good" and "evil is evil", some people do evil things to achieve goodnes, some people do good things but for the wrong reasons, results, or cause

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreyAndGrayMorality

Rather unnecessary thing to say isn't it? No one in the real world is pure evil either but there is certainly evil. Hitler liked animals. Hitler wasn't killing Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies, etc. for the evil he killed them because he believed he was bringing about a better world through their extermination. The Enclave also believes they're bringing about a better world by murdering a minimum of 700,000 (population of NCR by Fallout 2) people to create their perfect world.

You cannot murder 700,000 people whose only crime was existing and who had no choice in their fate and claim not to be evil. The only people who would disagree with that concept are sociopaths or first year philosophy students who haven't yet grasped anything beyond "morality is all relative" and don't understand how shallow a statement that truly is.

The BoS basically agrees with the statement made by Arnold in Terminator 2: "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves." And when you kill BoS members in New Vegas you get bad Karma but when you kill NCR members you dont get any Karma.

The BOS think they are better than me, or for that matter, anyone else that is not affiliated to them.

According to their point of view they are the epitome of good and the best thing to happen to the wasteland save for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ Almighty.

And, to quote the wise Jedi master as he talked to Luke halfway trough Return of the Jedi:



So yes, Considering the Bos, hoarding all tech and let every local "banging some rocks together or something" is doing the right and good thing. From their point of view.

And considering the Enclave, wiping out hundreds of thousands of innocent but irriadiated and mutant lifeforms, to start a society of radiation free and unmutated humans, is, in their point of view, the best ting to happen to humanity after the Great War.

Heck, even in our history this is true.

In the Bible the Babylonians offer children to their God Ba'al. The People of God are disgusted by this, but according to the Babylonians point of view this is one of the greatest honors to be sacrificed.
The Aztecs spent weeks, sometime months, offering the prisoners of war to the Gods. Bloody and Disgusting to modern society, a great spectacle and honor from their point of view.

So basically, this whole Good versus Evil debate isn't going anywhere since we all have different points of view on this one.

Everything is shades of Grey. Especially in Fallout.

Use the argument for the Enclave, BUT they were planning their evil deeds even before the nuclear war. "We want to rebuild and remove mutants and ghouls"... the mutants and ghouls are incidental. An excuse.

As for Caesar, he is a powerhungry psycho too. He'll come across a tribe, ask men to be in the Legion, enslave the women and children, and kill everyone else. It isn't about bringing civilisation, it's about bringing Caesar's warped idea of civilisation. Which isn't civilisation at all, really.

Going to take the liberty to assume that you are replying to my post.

So in response to your post:

You are absolutely right. And this proves the point in mentioned in my post before this one.

Yes the Enclave were planning their Evil deeds before the nuclear war, and mutants and gouls are incidental, an excuses as you say. Still, what they were trying to do was to conduct the Vault experiments to gather information an data to plan an exodus from earth to start a new on other planets. The vault experiments actually didn't need a nuclear war to happen to take place (something I explained in an essay, if someone is interested I can post it here) Still, from their point of view, they had to sacrifice a few thousand people to able to save their future wich was leaving earth wich was filled with disease resource shortages, overpopulation and a lot of other not so pleasant things. So they were trying to save their people and bring them a better world. That goal isn't very evil, the means to get there are by the morals of our society. For the enclave, the end Justify the means, so everything they do is for the good.

Ceasar, well. It's his warped Idea of civilisation. So from his point of view he is doing the right thing as well. He brought order, punished criminals, instated laws, brought stability and security to his subjects.
I agree that he isn't apalled by a little genocide, but then again, it is said that most of the tribes he subjegated were fighting with other tribes or amongst themselves. He gave these people a common enemy, a goal in life and stability. More probably, they are probably a lot less likely to starve, have better acces to medical facilities and other benefits of a more advanced civilization, wether it be warped or not.

And raising the standard of life of your people isn't really evil in my book.

is Caesar really raising the standard of life of his people though? Farming tribes, doing quite well thanks, then the Legion move in and conscript/enslave everyone. Doesn't sound like improvement to me. No, Caesar wants everyone to follow his warped idea, or die. Period. He doesn't care if women own 120 acres one day, and are carrying a huge pack around like a donkey the next. They're doing what HE says, and that is all that matters to him.

Compare with Ashur in the Pitt: he is brutal, but it is for the very reason of raising his people up, bettering their lives ultimately. That will happen a long time after Ashur is dead and gone, so he isn't doing it for personal glory. It's tough love. Not so with Caesar.

Please do post that essay Glad to see that you at least appreciapte that the Enclave is doing some pretty bad things but with an ultimate outcome of a better, and still alive, human race. Though you sound as though you are suggesting that they maybe allowed the war to happen, something which I would have to disagree with, the plan to recolonise America (I think that the other planet was cut-content, shame Van Buren never came about to explain it like it was going to ).

Emperor Palpatine:



Obi Wan was talking about interpretations of the truth, not good and evil my young padawon.

I really like how people posted points if view that made me feel for the Enclave and the Legion... The Master wanted a powerful race to fight off the brutal wasteland. If I remember correctly he wanted to eliminate physical differences from most (basically him, centaurs, nightkin, and supermutants) and to make a united force. He just had a bad way of making his dream a reality.

On topic: The BoS hoard tech until they feel humanity is ready for it while they aren't even ready for it.

Good, Bad, I always thought of them as Stupid.

Of course they think what their doing is right. But good and evil are just words we give to things, its all about perspective really.

Their jerks for not helping people and improving society as a whole, because they believe they will be able to live out the other societies and take full control.

Good, bad, who cares? they are the guys with the guns

As for this,

Fallout is all shade of gray, good and evil are just a point of view, neither the NCR or the BOS are pure good and Legion or Enclave or Master are pure evil, And the Neutral ones... yeah they are true neutral

They think that they cause is right, but it could be a wrong cause, maybe, maybe not, this not only depend on how morally questionable is, but what people think about too its, good?.bad?.right?.wrong?, morally acceptable or questionable? are they our saviors or are they our doom?. Paragon?,Renegade?

so far the true good in this game are the FOTA and the true evil are the FO3 raiders and the NV fiends, the Khans was evil one time, then they got hunted down until they just wanted start a new live

Bos is my favorite faction with cool armour and gauss rifles

I'm not saying the Enclave allowed the war to happen, I'm saying that, if the vault project was set up to test the viability of space travel or colonisation of planets, the Enclave didn't actually need a nuclear war to happen. They could've done it without one happening. I'll look up the essay and post it when I find the time, I explain it in there.

Note that I consider the "Vaults are testing grounds for possible colonisation of other planets" explanation as canon. It's the most viable argument for why they would consider making them tests in the first place. "Hurr, it's kewl to make them experiments" isn't just that, well, plausible. Besides that, every known canon Vault experiment can be linked to space travel and or colonization of planets in some (farfetched) way or the other.

Horhey: I know that Obi-wan was talking about the interpretations of truth, however Good and Evil are presented as absolute truths based on points of view. Therefore I figured it applied.

Well the Enclave were the American Government, I believe that the space exploration was only if the planet Earth became uninhabitable. They didn't want to colonise space, when nuclear war came ever closer they wanted America to survive and looked in various options. Let's look at the Vault Experiments before 3:

8 - Control Vault
13 - Stayed shut forever.
15 - Mixed ideologies

Let's hear what Richardson said,

The vaults were set up to test humanity. Some had not enough food synthesizers, others had only men in them, yet others were designed to open after only 6 months. They each had a unique set of circumstances designed to test the occupants.

Pretty conceivable and rational problems which could result from prolonged isolation, not the madness of FEV testing (87) and making slave soldiers (92). I literally just thought that the data might be useful, in my own hypothesis I reason that the people on the ENCLAVE created the authoritarian state and subjected temselves to it after learning that several Vaults experienced riots due to some people wanting to leave; not wanting it to happen to them they created the propaganda to create national unity and faith in leadership.

Pre-War America already seems to be a pretty Authoritarian, fuelled by a fierce national unity and glorification of the government to me. I don't find it to differ much from the enclave on a political point of view.

The Vault experiments could have jiust confirmed the Enclave in their ways, and strengthening their beliefs they were along the good path. No matter how you bent it, the Enclave still is a democracy, of course the president has almost absolute power, but he is still elected. (Eden is a doubt there, but I'll give him the benefit of said doubt).

Besides that, even the FEV projects make sense when you start considering long range and long term space colonization. (I.E. The FEV could turn people so they could handle the differences in gravity or physics better, if Encountered a hostile alien race (Zeta Aliens or something different) having soldiers fighting them efficiently, or without regard for their on lives seems pretty useful.

Regarding your first paragraph:



Pre-War Earth seemed pretty uninhabitable to me. Overpopulation, squalor, plague, famine, dwindling resources to name a few. Waiting for a few decades, conducting Vault experiments and gathering data, hogging the last resources and spending whatever you could take to improve current technology, or invent some new ones so you'll be able to use even less resources.

When ready, use your final resource to start a exodus from earth and start anew on another planet. It makes sense to me.

I'm not saying that the Enclave is a dictatorship, infact there is rational evidence that it is not and that the elections are genuine (not that I would suspect them anyway, read Richardson's dialouge, the man is a patriot). But it maintains social stability by providing biased infomation, the lack of coparable sources, unquestioning trust by the people. The difference between the Enclave and the pre-war administration is that on the ENCLAVE it works.



From the pre-war Enclave then maybe I could understand the need for them then, I guess. The Project would solve all of those problems however I am liking your idea on space colonisation; colour me intrigued.

Perhaps I should have been more clear on my point of view.

I was talking about the Pre-war Enclave. Of course this is the same organisation as the post-war Enclave, however I do not consider them to be different groups. The goals and methods of the pre-war Enclave might be different from the post war Enclave when you are talking about the short-term goals, but it's more likey that the long term goals are still there.

Post-war earth does not have anything to offer that allows the Enclave to maintain their current standard of life and technology. Eventually, even if they kill all mutants and repopulate the earth with un-mutated humans, their resources WILL run out, period. They could and most likely will cut back hugely on their dependence on fossil fuels, solar and wind energy being the most likely alternatives, together with nuclear fusion. They will be able to keep up for a long time by scavenging pre-war tech, but eventually their Uranium and Plutonium will run out. Since most of their more advanced tech require some sort of nuclear fuel, alternative technologies will only bring them about half way.

To counter this effect, they';ll need to bring those fuels from somewhere else, other celestial bodies (moons and planets) being the most viable solution. Oil, coal and gas need plants and a huge amount of time (and pressure) to form, but Uranium is a metal, and can (in theory) be found on other planets, moons and even asteroids. The only thing the enclave'll need to do is find a cost effective and efficient (and perhaps safe, but considering earth is a radioactive Hellhole, I'm kinda MEH on the safety subject) way to get it from space to Earth.

So the Enclave will be able to sustain their, or maybe even improve, their way of life if they find an alternative to fossil fuels for most appliances, since it is unlikely they can completely cut back on their dependence of nuclear tech, another source of uranium. It will be hard and time consuming, but it can be done.

Having said that, we are getting kind of off-topic, so perhaps we could continue this discussion in another thread, and let this get back to the topic?

You could try the "Fate of the Enclave" thread I suppose, that's effectively become the main Enclave discussion point, besides I think that they have alread done away with fossil fuels. The ENCLAVE had a nuclear reactor as did all of the Vaults; I see no reason too why Vertibirds are necasserily fossil fuel powered, more than likely they have rechargable batteries from Nuclear power, makes more sense in the long term.

it depends how you look at it. in fo3 they make you do alot of work with little help. THey have good intentions they just do it the wrong way

Brotherhood is ridiculous. They don't even help anything. They are elitist bastards who hire nobody and hoard all the tech to themselves; for seemingly no reason. I mean, look at the Enclave. They may have used their tech to try mass genocide but I mean at least they did SOMETHING with it.

The Brotherhood just gets in the way of society advancing and rebuilding itself by taking everything of value and hiding it behind guys in t51b.

The only real time I ever liked the Brotherhood is in Fallout 3 where they actually helped the people of the wastes with their technology.

(Spoilers coming up)

Even in Fallout 1, the only reason they (helped, by standing outside doing nothing) destroyed the mutant vats was because they thought it would be a threat to them. Did they really even care about humanity? No!

I think the Brotherhood of Steel is amusingly a bit of a failed entity.

It has splintered into three separate equally powerful groups.

Lyons is a breakway chapter but by the end of "Broken Steel" he's probably as powerful, if not more powerful, than the Brotherhood HQ in California.

(That's assuming there IS a remnant in California)

"Hey local, shouldn't you be banging rocks together or something?"

exactly.