Count me in as a warrior that dabbles in enchanting, I don't know what to tell ya, enchanting just doesn't seem lame to me while all other magic does.

Different strokes?

I do find it weird when people are warriors who use restoration but then bag on magic, if I was going to hold my hand up and heal myself with swirly magic I couldn't then hate on magic with a straight face. Once you're holding up a magic hand you might as well go all out. But yeah enchanting seems different. King arthur had an enchanted sword. Enchanted stuff just translates to my character being superstitious in my mind's rp, I don't enchant flames or shock spells or anything like that into swords. I just might have absorb health in my weapon, which I can justify as my character getting amped and energised by slaying an enemy, then I might have fortify archery on a hat, and that can just be my character's "lucky hat" that makes him shoot with more confidence. Enchant two handed in boots could just mean they have nice grip to get a purchase to swing from better, enchant unarmed in a ring could just mean it has a gnarly edge, etc etc. There's nothing too fantastical about my enchantments so they don't bother me.

edit to add- no one should be talking about alchemy in this thread, alchemy is a real life real thing that has nothing to do with magic. I don't usually use it, but if I did I wouldn't consider it conflicting with my "pure warrior" status at all.

Every character is some kind of thief/rogue hybrid too with lockpicking and speech

Sorry Colonel but you're mistaken my friend, see the Warrior class from Oblivion and their skill list with not a single magic school in it: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

Potions have never been spoken about (my warriors avoid them) but magic is not befitting of a Warrior, their description even mentions it: "Masters of all melee tools, they put little faith in the magical arts."

Hag, my man... You can throw those class descriptions out the window. They don't carry much weight. They change from game to game and are only there as an incentive for those that don't know what they want or need to do.

The developers even commented that, " everyone should know not to use those preset classes and create a custom class... "

I'm on the fence about the validity of Enchanting. As it can viewed as just a mechanical transition from breaking the soul gem and allowing the essence to transfer to the item. However, it only bears to reason that anyone could take wheat and blisterwort, brew it in some water to create a Health potion. Essentially, the same basic chemistry process as cooking.

You're mistaken, I was talking about actual lore, not arbitrary classes.

But:

Knight

The most noble of all combatants. Strong in body and in character.

Specialization: Combat Attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Personality, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Strength Skills: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Blade
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Block
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Blunt
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Hand_to_Hand
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Heavy_Armor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Illusion
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Speechcraft

Illusion...

ha I know this is the 2nd time recently that I've pulled the Oblivion class card (nostalgia maybe) but this time was more justified as he mentioned that Restoration was favored by Warriors in TES before.

I agree that Alchemy is basically chemistry which is more mental then magical but Enchanting involves using souls captured in magical soul trapping gems that were put there by magic so that definitely falls under magic...especially since it's 1 of the skills under the "Path of Magic" in the Ohgma Infinium (Alchemy doesn't which supports your opinion it's not magical).
Think about how you would go about transferring a soul from a gem then binding it to a weapon and imbuing it with a magical property...you don't just smash the gem on the weapon and say "you're 10pts fire damage now"
Knight is Knight, Warrior is Warrior....that's like comparing Sorcerer and Battlemage which are similar yet different.

Where in lore does it state that "Warriors" use magic? You may be right about that but I never heard of someone being called a Warrior and casting spells...don't throw the thu'um in there

And...

Crusader

A combatant who wields the power of brute strength and medicinal knowledge. Cheating death after every fight, they rely on their keen knowledge of restoration to fight yet again.

Specialization: Combat Attributes: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Strength, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Willpower Skills: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Athletics
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Blade
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Blunt
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Destruction
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Hand_to_Hand
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Heavy_Armor
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Restoration

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Crusader#Crusader

Classes don't mean much.

Maybe not to you and your game (or Skyrims streamlined style) but in an RPG a class is almost as defining as a race, more so in certain RPG's. Tell an old school D&D dude that classes don't mean much and you'll hear a nerd rant rage

Well luckily this isn't Dand D, and those classes had magic abilities since Morrowind TES goes against typical roles. And I don't think anyone will argue a knight isn't a warrior.

Only some RPGs

Runequest (1st published 1978) had no classes, a world where everyone knew a few spells and a learning by doing experience system

TES since Daggerfall shows more signs of being influenced by it than D&D

Ah, you DID argue a knight wasn't a warrior....oy, lol Anyway, I didn't say warriors all casted spells. Depends on what. A warrior to me relies on weapons for the offensive and uses some sort of armor. Nords before were given bonuses to restoration. But, why not throw in the thu'um as well? It is a magical ability.

This is true, TES is a bit different then the typical RPG of old but classes are still there even if only in name.

ha well Elton John is a knight so yea not all knights are warriors

(yes I went there ha)

The thu'um is a bit different then schools of magic, I see it more as a hereditary right that was gifted by Kyne and of course to the Dovahkiins. As for your quote, yes Warriors favor the paralyze enchantment on weapons because it makes their job easier but that doesn't mean they enchanted the weapon themselves, only use it. Think of Ysgramor, he used the enchanted Wuuthrad to kill Snow Elves as did his Companions with their elf killing weapons but they were enchanted by Ahzidal.

I don't see why a Warrior wouldn't take advantage of a better weapon but to do the actual enchanting takes magical know-how.

I can see why one would feel that Enchanting is clearly on the side of magic. However, the basic application of using a soul gem in the field to charge a weapon, doesn't require any special mystical ability or a table. So, the jury is still out on that for me.

I will agree that the use of any spell, even Restoration, is not becoming of a true pure Warrior. This is obviously discrediting the preset class category of the aforementioned Knight as being a warrior. ( I discredit all of those presets anyway ) While they are warrior types, they are not in the context of a pure Warrior as implied by the OP and the basis of this discussion.

Essentially making the socalled Knight class, just an alternate subname for a particular Spellsword.

... or Battlemage, pending how one wants to define the actual difference. Which is purely subjective.

ooh good point sir, I overlooked that aspect of the soul gem. Ok well here's my spur of the moment idea of how that could work without knowing magic, perhaps a weapon already imbued with a soul from a gem means that it naturally draws in other souls that are trapped in gems and simply smashing the soul gem with the weapon causes the soul to transfer to its new "gem"....seems plausible in this crazy fantasy world

Enchanting itself on the other hand is still very much magical to me, even the tables scream of magic with the symbols, crystal ball full of some green essence, candles and skull...it all feels very ritual.

Good choice of words on the "pure" Warrior shunning magic...the true Warrior may be open to using anything to their advantage, even Archery which is also often looked down upon by a "pure" warrior

Lorewise, only spellcasters are capable of the best and most versatile enchantments.

Gamewise, Enchantment is virtually identical to any MMO enchanting system.

Can we change the thread title to "Arguing Semantics"?

This is why I'm still on the fence about a Warrior using Enchanting. I mean by actually utilizing the act of imbuing a raw item with an enchantment is clearly something done by a character of the arcane.

Then we have the act of soul trapping by the use of a weapon and therefore cycling the field use of soul gems to recharge other weapons. That holds no bindings to Conjuration because it's clearly the weapon doing the act.

Not sure where I was going with that last part but... I'm sure it had some sort of relevance in my initial concept.

I think there's a little more to it than that.

I agree, the difference is that small.

Best and most versatile, yes, but nothing's stopping warriors from learning a little healing spell here or there. They gave Nords a restoration bonus for a reason before.

Mainly in name only though

They are more like a background than a D&D class that restricts the way your character can develop

Rather than bring back classes (although I would like a background for my character) I feel they should make factions more meaningful

Make certain trainers, spells, perks etc only available through faction

Make it so you can't join all factions or rise to the highest ranks in all of them

Rather than choose a class that limits your development before you start playing have your choices limited by the decisions you make in game

But given that many want to do everything with a single character can't see this happening

I don't think there is.

My Ranger is a warrior. He uses stealth to gain upper hand in a battle, but when the heat of battle, he fights with the best of them. He also wears virtually no armor (save for some leather boots and gloves).

My Dunmer Mystic Warrior is also a warrior (it's even in the name!). So what if he conjures his own weapons from the plane of oblivion. Once he has is bound battleaxe in hand, foes are felled left and right.

These are both warriors. Calling one a ranger or scout or the other a spellsword or whatever doesn't change that. I mean, I even created a warrior "class" that has conjuration and alteration as major skills.

They may not be "pure" warriors, but they are definitely both warriors.

So is a Battlemage or a Spellsword. But that's the point of discussion. If they use magic, then they are by definition not pure Warriors.

You can create whatever you want and call it whatever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that if they use magic, then they are not pure warriors.

It's more than just being picky with words if you clearly use or don't use magic skills.

Isn't a warrior someone that lives for battle? I mean, you could have someone in armour, sword and shield that lives only for battle and isn't afraid to use magic or potions when needed. How is that not a warrior? He/she actively seeks battle.

He's not pure enough to be a warrior.

As you've touched upon, anything beyond the enchanting table isn't magical as it's the magically imbued weapon doing all the magic, not the person wielding it. Everything on the enchanting table is indeed magical for several reasons we've already discussed and in Oblivion you had to be a member of the Arcane University to have access to the Altar of Enchanting so enchanting has indeed been a magical thing for a long time in both game and lore.

The differences make all the difference, ice and water are essentially the same yet vastly different in ways.

Nords had a bonus to Restoration yet not all Nords are warriors, you're mixing race and class.

I hear you, they have faction based trainers to some extent in Skyrim as the master magic teachers are all in the College to my knowledge. As for the limits, I prefer to limit myself and never play a Jack of all trades but I like the freedom to choose...perhaps instead of restrict then maybe they can have a conflict of interest between factions like you have to choose a loyalty and leave a conflicting faction if you want to ascend to a certain rank/status.
You're confusing the real world definition of warrior with the class in the game...if we go by the real world definition then everyone who engages in battle would be considered a warrior so that would include every character type who fights in game, even mages and thieves.

Then this is a completely pointless discussion (wasn't it always?), as there are no classes in Skyrim, just characters.