We get it! You thoroughly made sure that your CoC is nothing but the CoC as far as everyone here is concerned. Canonically, the CoC is now Sheo. Yours may not, but that's your own damn choice to ignore the MQ of Shivering Ilse.

Hell, my CoC has yet to even make attempts at finding the commentaries, let alone becoming Sheogorath. I too can easily say nuh uh, but you have to realize that canonically, the CoC became Sheogorath. Yours may not, and for all we know or care, died in a ditch somewhere or became insanely rich and bought Valenwood from the bosmer.

It won't be said. That's not for Bethesda to say. It is canonical, because there are no hand-of-god restrictions interfering with the CoC's descision to dive down the rabbit hole and mantle Sheogorath. The canon does not restrict your CoC from deciding not to be Sheogorath.

My Sheogorath didn't become CoC. You cant't prove that Sheogorath became CoC or even that Oblivion Crisis had place at all. It's up to the player.

Thank you, kind sir.

This "debate" is pretty ridiculous...

And now it shall be finished.

It doesn't matter what "our" characters did. Since this is a TES game we could choose to save the world or just pick flowers and go die in a goblin cave.

Now stay with me... In the cannon. As in what Beth says happened in the timeline of the lore they created. CoC became Sheogorath. Simple.
Just like how in Mass Effect 2 Bioware says in the cannon the council died. Even though if the player finished Mass Effect 1 and imported their save the council could live.

Another example: In left 4 dead any of the characters can die at any time. But Valve says in the cannon the one who ends up dying is Bill.

There you go.

You know I wasn't disagreeing with you but thanks for being rude.

How can you say anything happened canonically until the next game or Bethesda says something? You can't say for sure, although I'm sure you like to think you can.

Did the Nerevarine save Ravenrock? No.

Is the CoC canonically Sheogorath? Maybe. We'll see won't we?

Hey for those that have read the novel, is the CoC mentioned at all?

Hellmouth said he wasn't.

And he won't be confirmed as Sheogorath.

canonically, a/the hero completes all the main quests. hence we have the defeat of Tharn, warp in the west, etc. minor quests and guild questlines are left up in the air, although it is quite likely that Oblivion's guild questlines were also completed by a/the hero. We don't know for sure whether the nerevarine (or another hero) saved raven rock - he could have, only to have to fail later.

really, how would you expect a confirmation that the CoC became sheo? all we'll get is the CoC disappearing after the crisis. bethesda can't just write a book that says "and then the CoC went into a mystical portal to the shivering isles and mantled sheogorath" because no-one knows about it outside the isles. do you expect sheo's worshipers to say "hm, he looks kinda different today" in 4E40 and have that represent the player as opposed to the Mad God deciding to play dressup? you have to take the game at its word here when it says you're the god because thats as good as you're going to get.

No. The only description of the Ilse is Mania (pretty yellow flowers that smell like ass, and big mushrooms)


Pretty much, I've yet to do SI and the MQ of OB, but I still acknowledge that canonically, the CoC becomes the madgod. Like what LN said, the MQs of the TES series becomes canon, while side quests are left open in the air.

Here's the problem. You're comparing an expansion quest line to the Raven Rock questline. Please tell me where it is mentioned that the hero completes all main quests. There was only one main quest in Arena and Daggerfall, and in Morrowind it is confirmed the Nerevarine does Tribunal, but Bloodmoon is up in the air, as is Shivering Isles.

I don't see where the proof that the main character must complete all main quests. I've never seen anything of the sort.

It is hinted in OB that the nerevarine makes an appearance in Solstheim and becomes the head of Thirsk. Outside of that, BM holds no real significance to the world. The only way at this point we'll hear about the nerevarine in Solstheim is if the second book comes out.

And where's the proof? It's in every game. Main character saves the emperor in Arena, and becomes the EC. Main character causes the Warp of the West in Daggerfall, and it's mentioned in a book in MW (it also heavily implies the main character dies, as that is an ending to DF). Nerevarine takes down Dagoth Ur, and Almalexia. We know this, because the nerevarine is mentioned (so there was one), and that there's no blight monsters of zoids running around. Bits of events from BM are also leaked into OB, but outside of a few legionaries and the Skaal, the events of BM wouldn't have made it to the ears of the people as it was an isolated incident contained in a small, unimportant area. And with OB, the CoC helped Martin stop Mehrunes Dagon and became Sheogorath. If this didn't occur, the book wouldn't have mentioned Martin's sacrifice, and that SI is still SI, instead of Jyggy's. Also, SI is still the same SI we saw.

And then there's the spin-offs, Redguard and Battlespire. Cyrus forces Tiber to redo his treaty, and the guy from Battlespire stopped Mehrunes Dagon from a premature invasion. The former isn't really mentioned, because it happened in the second era. The latter was an isolated incident, almost similar to BM.

I said main quests, as in plural. With an "s". Meaning expansions. When is it explicitly said that the character completes main quests from expansions? With the exception of Tribunal, as it is assumed. Bloodmoon, SI, NoTN, were never confirmed as being completed by the CoC or Nerevarine.

considering that Cyrodiil is not overrun by daedra or elves or returned to the dawn times, i'd say the CoC (or another hero) finished up NoTN (NoTN is, btw, not an expansion). As for BM, we know the nerevarine (or another hero, again) got as far as Thirsk and then "moved to another adventure". considering he finished all other games, i'd say its quite likely he went on to stop warewolves from eating everyone on the island (it seems like something we'd have heard about)

See what I'm trying to say here.

We can say for sure that Bethesda will not say that CoC canonically didn't become Sheogorath.

But they won't say he canonically did become Sheogorath.

And they also never stated that becoming Sheogorath is the same thing as becoming a Daedric Prince.

that you don't want your precious character becoming a daedra? the CoC is the one who did it in the games, its probably the CoC who did it in lore. either way, someome did it, and it doesn't matter much who at the end of the day (although i find the irony of the one who restored the barrier becoming a daedra himself delicious). my endless qualifications are there because we're never going to be told for certain, just like we aren't absolutely sure whether its the Nerevarine who visited Soltheim.


what else would it be? now you're just arguing nonexistent semantics.

Remove the impossible and whatever is left, no matter how implausible, must be the truth.

In your opinion the weight of the evidence tips the scale to one specific outcome. In my opinion, it does not tip it enough to make any of the other (nearly infinite) possibilities less plausible. The fact that anyone who presents an alternative to this particular forum's (Lore) groupthink mentality is badgered into either rescinding thier opinion or accepting the "commonly accepted" idea is really what I am arguing against here. You do not know the answer, you think you do. Until/Unless Bethesda specifically states the result, no one will ever be correct in their assumption.

but Bethesda HAS specifically stated the result. when you finish SI everyone calls you Sheogorath, i can't see how it can get any clearer than that. Unless you are arguing that Bethesda is going to completely ignore everything that happened in SI, I don't see how the hero can not have become Sheogorath.

Two things:
1. Being called "King of the Crazies" by crazy people is not necessarily evidence of anything. They could be crazy (and right or wrong), you could be crazy (and right or wrong), or you both could be sane (and right or wrong).

2. Assuming that Jyggylag and Sheogorath are the same entity (which is alluded to) how can you mantle one without mantling the other? And since there is no indication that you have mantled Jyggylag AND Sheogorath it leaves the door open for you having never mantled Sheogorath, merely his name/title.

My point is that what Bethesda has given us cannot explain away every possibility and therefore those possibilities are the truth until disproven. Additionally, since this is a game and not real life, there is nothing else we can do but wait for more lore before anything can be conclusively decided. You may be content to accept your opinion as the one and only option, but I prefer to err on the side of reason, and that is to take the position that nothing is decided until proven beyond doubt.

....not to sound rude or anything, but did you even play the game? I think this point is explained pretty clearly during the Main Quest of SI.

Anyway, I don't see why this discussion is still going on in the first place. I think it is fair to assume that the Main Quest is completed by the Eternal Champion/Nerevarine/CoC/main hero of any TES game, while the optional side quests (guild quests, misc. quests, etc) are completed by SOMEONE, but not necessarily the main hero you play as. For example, while I supposed it is possible for the Nerevarine to be the head of the Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Morag Tong, one or all of the Great Houses, the Imperial Legion, the Imperial Cult, the Tribunal Temple, so on and so forth....I find it highly unlikely that this is the case. Let's not forget why those quests are there in the first place; to give the PC (you) variety and choice in your gaming experience. If the only quest we could do in the games was the MQ, then it would certainly be easier to determine who did what, but it would also be a very boring game, as well.

Bottom line, I say just make up your own choice as to who-does-what where the answer isn't clearly stated. I mean, is it really that important who the head of the Vvardenfell Mages Guild is, anyway?

Lets get back to basics
Canonically, the heroes end up as such
Arena: Eternal Champion saves the emprah, and defeats Jagar Tharn. Nothing is known afterwards.
Daggerfall: The Agent causes the Warp of the West, which also results in the Agent being killed by the Numidium as it was an ending to Daggerfall (confirmed in http://imperial-library.info/obbooks/warp_west.shtml)
Morrowind: The Nerevarine defeats Dagoth Ur, Alamenxia, and stops werewolves from invading by defeating Hircine in Solstheim
Oblivion: The Champion of Cyrodiil helps Martin stop Mehrunes Dagon, and becomes the Madgod, Sheogorath

Now, that's the Bethesda canonical endings. For me, I didn't like how the nerevarine just went to Akavir, so I pretended that after kicking Hircine's butt, he then kicked Vivec's ass, used the corpse of Vivec as a hover board to fly around, while ripping a guitar solo, and since then created a band called "Sonjourning" and is now touring Akavir.

If you truly wish your pretty Champion of Cyrodiil to NOT to Sheogorath, then pretend something else happened to him or her, and disregard SI for yourselves.

Jygyylag, a Daedra prince and not insane, tells you that you're Sheogorath. can you explain it away as "the player was just hearing things?" yea, i suppose you can, but thats grasping at straws. maybe you never saved Cyrodiil to begin with and have been in an asylum for the mentally insane this whole time. saying "http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllJustADream" (or, in this case "you went crazy") is however a huge copout imo.