Strawman tactic.

I never said that I believed that the CoC was insane, only that it was one possibility that has just as much validity as any other possibility. Therefore attacking the "you went crazy" argument as being a copout (which it is) is irrelevant to the point being made.

What Jyggalag actually says is http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/si15.shtml.

Before the battle:


After the battle:


Yes, Jyggalag calls you Sheogorath, and I am confident his assertion is true, as far as it goes. But I still think that the sense in which the PC actually is Sheogorath remains ambiguous. Yes, the PC is Sheogorath in some sense but clearly something has changed, and I'm far from certain about the details.

i'm saying that its NOT just as valid as any other possibility because its unbelievably lame.


to me, you are not Sheogorath in the sense that you are not Jyggylag. In other words, you're a totally new Sheogorath, separate from the Jyggy/Shegy (hence breaking the cycle of the greymarch). Jyggy existed as a separate prince in imperial mythos (17 daedra), but was united with shegy in the wheel metaphor (16 daedra). This is where it gets interesting, imo. you became sheogorath, but what exactly is "sheogorath"? did you really break asunder the two halves and mantle sheggy only? or will you slowly mold into jyggy as well, only to repeat the cycle once again? is jyggy a separate daedric essence to begin with, or is his "order" merely another form of insanity?

I'd much rather discuss those possibilities than have a 3 page back and forth to which no solution is in sight, which is why i'll try not to reply anymore. believe what you want to believe.

I really wish that "unbelievelably lame" did in fact invalidate things, unfortunately, as things such as Oblivion's Mages Guild endgame prove, it does not.


As far as the new Sheo/Jggy relationship goes, that is a topic which has unlimited correct answers as we really have no raw data on it.

Actually, my argument is that nobody here knows for sure who became Sheogorath, although somehow someone believed that their opinion became a fact, and now everyone believes that this opinion is a fact, when in reality it's all speculation. Nobody knows who became the madgod or who stopped Hiricine, although a lot of people here make generalizations with utterly no proof to back it up.

Like the Divayth Fyr topic, when someone said that Fyr was killed off because the Nords need to be the new benefactors of the Dunmer. See, someone tried to say for sure that something happened, based on nothing other than an opinion, and was then proved wrong when a dev said Fyr was not dead.

I don't post here often, but I see the mentality of a lot of people here is that their opinions become facts very easily.


Proof? There is no proof. You just keep stating your opinion is if it is a fact.


Exactly. Thank you.

No, there have always been 16 Daedra Princes, that is, until you somehow defeat Jyggalag in the middle of Greymarch and the curse broken

Jyggalag is Sheogorath, or to be more precise the bearded crazy old man Sheogorath, it is his cursed form. He is still Jyggalag, only twisted in mind and transformed in shape, that is the very reason you see him transform into Jyggalag in his palace.

The moment the curse is broken, Jyggalag remains Jyggalag, and the bearded crazy old man Sheogorath is gone, replaced by a totally new Sheogorath. Sheogorath is not simply a name: it is kind of like a title, a definition of what Prince of Madness is. The moment Greymarch is stopped there are no longer 16 Daedra Princes, but 17 Daedra Princes now exist, each with their own realm, at least if Jyggalag has his own realm.

As for either CoC is the one who mantled Sheogorath, I'd like to believe so, namely because no matter what happened, you will always meet with the emperor, and given the Amulet of Kings. As such, you are the Champion of Cyrodiil, before or after the events of SI

I like to think of the sheo/jyg relationship as a case of multiple personalities. The Greymarch being the cycle in which the two personalities switch positions as dominant. When you beat jyg, he is letting go, (one would hope) giving up all claims to control over the body (which is the realm).

As for whether or not the COC is sheo, well: In every game, there is only one player-character. He/she always starts the same way. There is no option to start a different way for each expansion. Only the PC, who completes the base game MQ's, can go on to complete expansion MQ's. PC's who do expansion MQ's first have merely not done the base MQ yet.

For now in the lore , it's ether CoC was the Sheogorath or wasn't Sheogorath ether or. It's not official if it's yea or no to the OP's main question. Until we get further lore updates by Bethesda nothing is official .

Jyggalag (i just realized i've been misspelling his name for 2 years) first shows up in On Oblivion (originally found in Daggerfall, then in Morrowind and Oblivion), so he isn't a wholly new invention. He was listed alongside Sheogorath, meaning that they are recognized as separate by mortals (though we know how limited they are). I suppose we could ask "what is a daedric prince?" when talking about how one mantles Sheogorath, but given Malacath, Namira, and what we now know about Dagon, I'd say the standard criteria of "et'ada not participating in creation" went out the window sometime during the last milenium.


Indeed, especially since bipolar disorder and multiple personality disorder typically falls under the umbrella of "crazy". I'm leaning towards the notion that the cycle is NOT broken and that as the CoC grows into the role of Sheogorath he will also become Jyggalag. I'll save details for my upcoming paper on the subject.

Jygalagg has been the seventeenth Daedric Prince http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b053_oblivion.shtml. Adding him to the person of Sheogorath could have been the original plan, but that isn't certain.

In name, yes there are 17, but now that Shivering Isles has told us the truth, physically there are only 16, until you beat the SI that is.

Because the Shivering Isles is not a direct continuation of the Oblivion Crisis / Martin quest, I don't believe that the Champ of Cyrodiil and the new Sheogorath are necessarily the same person. The Broken Steel DLC for Fallout 3 is a direct continuation of the main quest and there is no question that the Lone Wanderer you played in the original game is the same guy performing those new deeds. In contrast, the content added by Operation Anchorage, The Pitt, etc... can be completely ignored, but following the end of the original Fallout 3 main quest, Broken Steel picks right up and adds another chapter to the continuing story.



Now, the Shivering Isles to me feels like one gigantic side-quest. It's always the main quest that gets the canonical spotlight. Could your character have been the Gray Fox, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, a vampire, Sheogorath, the Divine Crusader, Arena Grand Champion, Fighter's & Mage's Guildmasters, and Champion of Cyrodiil all in the course if one game? Certainly, but is it canonical that the same person performed all those amazing feats? Why the hell didn't they make that guy Emperor?

The beauty of an Elder Scrolls game is you can forego the main quest in favor of doing something else, like joining a guild, exploring and doing odd jobs, training up your skills, or endlessly dungeon-diving. Maybe you take the main quest as far as Jauffre. You give him the Amulet of Kings and he tells you to go find Martin and you ... accidentally step too far out onto Dive Rock and plummet to your pathetic death. Eventually some other globetrotting warrior will happen along Weynon Priory and take up Jauffre's quest and he becomes the Champion of Cyrodiil. Similarly, you could step out of the sewers and head straight for that Strange Door. Personally I only ever finished the main quest in Oblivion once. Every character afterward has completely ignored it, but many of them have spent time in the Shivering Isles.

There's no reason to assume that the Champion of Cyrodiil isn't the one to become the new Sheogorath, I'm just saying it's not necessarily so. In terms of TES:IV the game, the Shivering Isles expansion is meant to add more for the consumer who is playing the title Bethesda designed to do. In terms of Elder Scrolls lore it means the Jyggalag/Sheogorath cycle has ended and someone new has taken up the position of Prince of Madness. Like I said above, because the Shivering Isles storyline does not directly affect the main Oblivion storyline I don't think that the CoC is canonically the new Sheogorath.

I think the more interesting question is what will become of the new Sheogorath at the Shivering Isles? Jyggalag says, "Perhaps you will grow to your new station." which to me foreshadows that the new Sheogorath, CoC or not, is going to show up in a future Elder Scrolls title and be just as loony as his predecessor. In fact, considering that no one outside of the Shivering Isles even knows the old Sheogorath is gone, I think will pretty much be business as usual when it comes to worshipping the Prince of Madness. Will he look or act different? Who knows? Maybe "growing into your station" means you'll become so much like the old Sheogorath that you'll be virtually indistinguishable. Perhaps given enough time you will become one with the Shivering Isles themselves and achieve full Daedric status.

This is a really interesting point because whoever became/mantled Sheogorath, was the one the Emperor spoke to and the one who was entrusted with the Amulet of Kings.

I am actually very sorry for posting this topic.

The reason why the Emperor gave you the Amulet was because he saw you in his dream and trusted you, but it doesn't mean that you are the CoC. The reason why he saw you in his dream could be that you will meet the CoC in a pub and you will give him the Amulet in exchange for beer. Everything is possible and everything is canon.

I think it is pointless to talk about deadric prince in physical sense. If you destroy the avatar of Mehrunes Dagon than he does not exists in the physical sense either but it doesn't mean that he doesn't exist.

The problem being the character, as per main quest, will always be told to go and find Jauffre carrying the Amulet of Kings. That is how the story played all the time, in the main quest the very person who got the Amulet of Kings from the emperor will always end up being the Champion of Cyrodiil


I was saying "physical" because that is the way it is. Jyggalag and Sheogorath are the same soul with different mind and body, even more problematic is that one recognizes the other, while one cannot physically see the other, because one cannot exist while the other exists.

Confusing... no?

Even Sheogorath the bearded crazy old man himself said "I am him, I am Jyggalag"

He is in my game.

And you always do what you are told to do?


That's not true, I have played several characters that have never become CoC.

We're talking about lore here, not personal games.

Heck, in my game, Sheogorath herself helped Martin Septim to get inside the Temple of The One and kill Mehrunes Dagon's avatar, and she's the Gray Fox AND the Archmage to boot!

To be more lore-breaking, she did that while wearing clothing that expose a lot of skin and holding a sword that is twice as fast as Boethiah's Goldbrand is and can soul trap any target while damaging their strength, endurance, will power, and absorbing their health, fatigue, and magicka. Oh, and she's born under the sign of Great Goddess... yes, Amaterasu. That can't be any more lore-breaking, now can it?

http://www.imagedum.com/images/921_ScreenShot11.jpg is the Champion of Cyrodiil, in my game.

Seventeen spheres. That's all I meant.

Plugins don't count.

Also you should consider this: if what you are saying is true, than Gray Fox, Sheogorath, The Archmage, CoC and lots of other people are all the same person which is insane and obviously wrong, because everyone starts in the sewers and everyone gets the Amulet from the Emperor.


The game expects you to be rational when it comes to the role-playing. Sure, you can theoretically become all those people, but is it doable?

The problem being Shivering Isles counts as plug-in... it's an esp mind you


Those are all side-quests, which people don't usually consider when talking about lore (when do the character do all of them? Before finding Jauffre, when helping Martin, or after becoming CoC?), but yes, according to the game that's how it is: The Champion of Cyrodiil, The Madgod, The Gray Fox, The Archmage, The Master, The Listener, The Knight-Errant and whatnot are the same person.

No, you expect people to be rational when it comes to role-playing. If, for example, I role-play an avatar of a long-forgotten god, complete with immortality and exceptional capabilities and abilities, then I guess that scenario above is possible

actually, most of SI is contained in an altered Oblivion.esm that the expansion installs. all the esp does is place the island in the niben

But without the island you can't "officially" go to SI

cow SEWorld 0,0

I guess we can toss out Tribunal and Bloodmoon too.