..::THE COMMUNITY TECH THREAD No. 97::..

Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:48 pm

I just bought a PC second-hand for $550AU (so around $250-$300 US when it comes to electronics), but it turns out that a few things aren't as advertised and to get it up to spec I need a new mobo and CPU. Basically I want to know if it'd be better for me to just get a refund from him, or to put in a new mobo and CPU. If I go with the upgrade, I don't need anything amazing, would want it to be roughly in proportion with the rest of the parts but with room to upgrade a year or two down the track.

Included stuff:

Antec 900 case with 600W PSU
2X2GB DDR2 800MHz RAM (http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=5&catid=2&prodgroupid=38&id=658 Patriot one, to be specific)
Gigabyte 8800GTX 768MB
Seagate 500GB HDD
Generic DVD-RW drive
Linksys Wireless N network card
19" Acer LCD monitor from ~2005
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Office 2007 Home

Current CPU is a P4 3.6Ghz (no hyper-threading, AFAIK), and mobo is a Gigabyte GA-81945P-g
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naome duncan
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:26 pm

I just bought a PC second-hand for $550AU (so around $250-$300 US when it comes to electronics), but it turns out that a few things aren't as advertised and to get it up to spec I need a new mobo and CPU. Basically I want to know if it'd be better for me to just get a refund from him, or to put in a new mobo and CPU. If I go with the upgrade, I don't need anything amazing, would want it to be roughly in proportion with the rest of the parts but with room to upgrade a year or two down the track.

Included stuff:

Antec 900 case with 600W PSU
2X2GB DDR2 800MHz RAM (http://www.patriotmemory.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=5&catid=2&prodgroupid=38&id=658 Patriot one, to be specific)
Gigabyte 8800GTX 768MB
Seagate 500GB HDD
Generic DVD-RW drive
Linksys Wireless N network card
19" Acer LCD monitor from ~2005
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Office 2007 Home

Current CPU is a P4 3.6Ghz (no hyper-threading, AFAIK), and mobo is a Gigabyte GA-81945P-g


All things considered, that price is pretty decent for all that. You certainly can get more life out of the system, but you may as well sell off the RAM and get some DDR3 RAM so that you have the option to be on a CPU platform more recent. Depending on how much you want to spend for a new CPU+MOBO, this could mean AMD's AM3 socket or more hopefully Intel's LGA 1155 socket (SandyBridge) .
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Charles Mckinna
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:07 am

Wow, nice to know that I vanish for two whole years, and not only do I remain on the list in the OP... Athanar retains the pink color I bestowed upon him, too. ;)
i have a question
what is the difference between having one graphics card compared to 3

As a general rule, multi-GPU settings show "diminishing returns:" I.e, 2 GPUs does NOT mean twice the power, and 3 doesn't mean 50% more than 2. The exact amount of use each additional card gets varies depending upon the game (and other factors) but I believe typically ranges around 60-90%; this is usually multiplied for a third card, so if the second card boosts performance to 190%, a third might only send you to 271%. (and that's a VERY optimistic situation) Often, the drop-off for the third card is so steep that it's almost impossible to recommend such an option instead of 2 or 1 card.

Whether getting multiple cards makes sense can vary: in some cases higher-end cards start costing way more than what you gain, to the point where buying a pair of cheaper cards, even considering the drop in effectiveness in such situations, will wind up being a better buy than a single top-of-the-line card. This typically comes at the >$300US price point, where it often proves cheaper and more powerful to hook up a pair of "sweet spot" (anywhere from $100-200US, as it varies from month-to-month with releases and price drops) cards than to buy a single $400US+ card that often doesn't get even +50% performance over the "sweet spot" cards. Right now, for instance, it would appear that a pair of GeForce GTX 460s or Radeon 6850s would best a single GTX 570 or Radeon 6870 while being close to the same price. Note, again, that rarely does it pay off to buy a third card, and only in SOME situations is a dual-card setup justified: some downsides come with using two cards, such as potential problems with some games that may force you to settle with using only one card, while if you'd taken a single-larger-card setup you would've have had such problems.

Lastly, if you want a 3-display situation, as mentioned you might thus want to look toward ATi's cards for their "Eyefinity" feature. Not that models with "eyefinity" in their name are designed to support up to SIX monitors, while all other 5xxx and 6xxx cards can support the 3 you specify as wanting. A single one of those cards can handle such displays fine, including arbitrarily spanning a single game screen across multiple monitors; so, say, 7680x1600 becomes a possibility.

I just bought a PC second-hand for $550AU (so around $250-$300 US when it comes to electronics), but it turns out that a few things aren't as advertised and to get it up to spec I need a new mobo and CPU. Basically I want to know if it'd be better for me to just get a refund from him, or to put in a new mobo and CPU. If I go with the upgrade, I don't need anything amazing, would want it to be roughly in proportion with the rest of the parts but with room to upgrade a year or two down the track.

For the price you paid, you got off pretty well. The case alone is like $100US, ($180AU-ish?) and that's WITHOUT the power supply. I'm assuming it has a PSU to match... Which'd be almost as pricey.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the RAM it came with is DDR2... And if you're taking the Intel route, Intel's been VERY bullish on adopting DDR3. Heck, even if you decide to swap to AMD, (a lot of the Sandy Bridge controversy has soured Intel for most DIY'ers) chances are you'd likely wind up with a Socket AM3 motherboard anyway... Which again would mean buying DDR3. Fortunately, over the past half-year or so, DDR3 prices *HAVE* plumetted, dropping typically by around 50-60% versus what they were before. Overall, it'd still be in the range of pricing, provided that Australia saw a similar drop in RAM prices. (i.e, a similar 2x2GB DDR3 setup would probably run you a bit under $100AU, I'd guess)
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joannARRGH
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:54 am

What's the reason behind the saying that 4 sticks of ram will make the processor OC worse than 2 sticks? That is for all kinds of OCing, even if you just change the multi and nothing else. Also, they say that 4gb sticks yield less system overclocks than 2gb sticks. So AMD users are stuck with 4gb?

What would be better for an AMD user, 8gb and a lower cpu oc, or 4gb and a higher cpu oc?
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Bird
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:51 am

What's the reason behind the saying that 4 sticks of ram will make the processor OC worse than 2 sticks? That is for all kinds of OCing, even if you just change the multi and nothing else. Also, they say that 4gb sticks yield less system overclocks than 2gb sticks. So AMD users are stuck with 4gb?

What would be better for an AMD user, 8gb and a lower cpu oc, or 4gb and a higher cpu oc?

The statements aren't 100% gauranteed, but they do have some sense to them:
  • With four sticks of RAM, you've got twice as many sticks that could not have as good a ceiling... Plus, for a dual-channel setup, having two modules per channel actually results in some increased latency that can lower performance and/or make overclocking harder. It's the latter that's likely what's being referred to.
  • 4GB sticks are newer than the 2GB ones, and I *BELIEVE* both are made at the same fabrication process currently. That means that with the 4GB ones you've got twice as much silicon. This could, again, make OC'ing harder.
  • As for what'd be better for you, it depends on what you're doing with your computer. In most cases more than 4GB of RAM really won't help you much right now. It'll be a while before games will seriously push into the need for 64-bit memory quantities, since that'd rely on most users having 64-bit OSes, when they're still in the minority. So for gaming, 4GB is plenty. However, for other types of application or work, it might not; it depends on what it is.

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MISS KEEP UR
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:23 pm

The statements aren't 100% gauranteed, but they do have some sense to them:
  • With four sticks of RAM, you've got twice as many sticks that could not have as good a ceiling... Plus, for a dual-channel setup, having two modules per channel actually results in some increased latency that can lower performance and/or make overclocking harder. It's the latter that's likely what's being referred to.
  • 4GB sticks are newer than the 2GB ones, and I *BELIEVE* both are made at the same fabrication process currently. That means that with the 4GB ones you've got twice as much silicon. This could, again, make OC'ing harder.
  • As for what'd be better for you, it depends on what you're doing with your computer. In most cases more than 4GB of RAM really won't help you much right now. It'll be a while before games will seriously push into the need for 64-bit memory quantities, since that'd rely on most users having 64-bit OSes, when they're still in the minority. So for gaming, 4GB is plenty. However, for other types of application or work, it might not; it depends on what it is.


Thanks, very informative.

How much ram does audio sequencing need? I'm using Finale and Kontakt with a bunch of sound libraries. No where near as heavy as EastWest Hollywood Strings (recommends 16gb of ram), but still a few libraries. (they require 512mb at least, but I think they are trying to boost their sales)

How does the ram affect the Ocing of the CPU only? Is all of this about non black edition processors only?

Thanks.
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Racheal Robertson
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:12 pm

[*]As for what'd be better for you, it depends on what you're doing with your computer. In most cases more than 4GB of RAM really won't help you much right now. It'll be a while before games will seriously push into the need for 64-bit memory quantities, since that'd rely on most users having 64-bit OSes, when they're still in the minority. So for gaming, 4GB is plenty. However, for other types of application or work, it might not; it depends on what it is.[/list]

If Microsoft had proper support for PAE (or similar), that wouldn't be an issue :rolleyes:. I currently have only 4GB of RAM (excluding graphics), but my effective limit is simply what my motherboard will take, despite running a 32bit kernel.

I know MS hit stability problems when they tried amounts larger than 4GB (due to some drivers), but that's more or less fixable. Apparently the main barrier on desktops is licensing weirdness :mellow:. Feel free to correct me on whatever I've got wrong (I'm half expecting there to be something).
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Soku Nyorah
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:02 pm

Wow, nice to know that I vanish for two whole years, and not only do I remain on the list in the OP... Athanar retains the pink color I bestowed upon him, too. ;)



Weclome back NTK :foodndrink:

insaneturbo13 recently peeked his head back in here too. You guys always come back ;)

Lord Athanar will always be the Super Pink Wonder in here :thumbsup:
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Victor Oropeza
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:58 am

So I am putting together a computer for my dad, we are recycling his old case and I am getting a CPU from a friend, and I wanted to verify that this will all work on the power supply I have chosen. He is only goign to be doing very light use, internet, listening to music, some movies, and very old games. We already have Windows so I do not need to purchase that and as stated his case, he does want a card reader inside the PC for whatever reason though. We would like to keep the cost as low as possible, but maintain reliability, so if any of you guys can recommend something that could be swapped out please let me know.

Here is what I have now:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128467 - $79.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130592 - 34.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231180 - 46.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148395 - 39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371034 - 44.99

The CPU that will be going in the machine is an old Core 2 Duo E8500 I believe, so socket 775. I also could not find a card reader. Can anyone suggest some way to lower the cost, prices above are before shipping. Also integrated graphics are more than enough for the games he wants to play, but since I couldn't find a motherboard quickly with one I went with a dedicated solution.
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Fiori Pra
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:23 am

Which would you recommend:

Logitech's Z623
Harman Kardon Soundsticks III

I believe the Z623's are more powerful but the Soundsticks III have a superior quality soundwise. Although I admit the Soundsticks looks are unusual and somewhat appealing, I don't view them as beautiful but then again I would get used to it.

Anyway thanks :)
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Jessica Thomson
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:40 am

What measures does win7 have in place to check the file integrity of every file when you access them? does it keep a record of some hash value of the file when it is first created?

Like if you had a system freeze, with tens of thousands of individual files on your disk, how do you know that they are all ok?
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kevin ball
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:54 am

So I am putting together a computer for my dad, we are recycling his old case and I am getting a CPU from a friend, and I wanted to verify that this will all work on the power supply I have chosen. He is only goign to be doing very light use, internet, listening to music, some movies, and very old games. We already have Windows so I do not need to purchase that and as stated his case, he does want a card reader inside the PC for whatever reason though. We would like to keep the cost as low as possible, but maintain reliability, so if any of you guys can recommend something that could be swapped out please let me know.

Here is what I have now:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128467 - $79.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130592 - 34.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231180 - 46.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148395 - 39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371034 - 44.99

The CPU that will be going in the machine is an old Core 2 Duo E8500 I believe, so socket 775. I also could not find a card reader. Can anyone suggest some way to lower the cost, prices above are before shipping. Also integrated graphics are more than enough for the games he wants to play, but since I couldn't find a motherboard quickly with one I went with a dedicated solution.


Not sure what is meant by "card reader". What kind of card reader are you referring to?

For such a basic user, why not just get him a Micro-ATX board to shave off some cash. Unless you need all those extra PCI slots, this board would do and comes with Intel's X4500 integrated video chipset:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128470&cm_re=g41_motherboard-_-13-128-470-_-Product

The chipset admittedly blows for any modern games, but you can stick a dedicated card in there later on if there is a need for one. BTW, the 8400GS is a $10 card....I have one in my closet (for backup) and that's how much I paid for it shipped a few weeks ago through a sale. Don't spend $35 on that...even this card is better:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125337


The memory is good, but is there a need for performance RAM? Even this will do for basic users:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231396

Very much rather suggest this hard drive:
http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=HD-HD502HJ&title=Samsung-SpinPoint-F3-HD502HJ-500GB-SATA2-7200rpm-16MB-Hard-Drive

This power supply would be more than enough even with a video card like the Radeon 5670 and is a quality unit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371033&cm_re=antec_power_supply-_-17-371-033-_-Product


Which would you recommend:

Logitech's Z623
Harman Kardon Soundsticks III

I believe the Z623's are more powerful but the Soundsticks III have a superior quality soundwise. Although I admit the Soundsticks looks are unusual and somewhat appealing, I don't view them as beautiful but then again I would get used to it.

Anyway thanks :)


I'd go with the Z623 if gaming is the intention here. The soundstage for the Logitech ought to be better than the SoundSticks, which seems more geared for music purposes. The Z623 should have excellent music playback in itself too though.

Anyways, you might find this user review insightful http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Y4M1TSE43BN9
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Ross Thomas
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:08 pm

Not sure what is meant by "card reader". What kind of card reader are you referring to?


I think he mean a device who can read flash memory card similar to those memory cards you have in a digital camera.


@DarkOneVenzar: Is that correct?
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Jah Allen
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:07 am

I'd go with the Z623 if gaming is the intention here. The soundstage for the Logitech ought to be better than the SoundSticks, which seems more geared for music purposes. The Z623 should have excellent music playback in itself too though.

Anyways, you might find this user review insightful http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Y4M1TSE43BN9


Thanks :) I was already more into the Z623 since my current speakers in my secondary PC are the X 530 and I think these are great, so I trust Logitech. And yes the main intention is gami ng, followed by music so I'll go with these.
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SamanthaLove
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:33 pm

What can I do to speed up my PC? I added 2 gigs of RAM (total 4), did a defrag (with the windows defrag), ran CCleaner, weekly virus/spyware scans, etc. Anything else to pull a bit more performance out of this beast?

I'm running XP Home, BTW.
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Guy Pearce
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:50 am

Not sure what is meant by "card reader". What kind of card reader are you referring to?

For such a basic user, why not just get him a Micro-ATX board to shave off some cash. Unless you need all those extra PCI slots, this board would do and comes with Intel's X4500 integrated video chipset:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128470&cm_re=g41_motherboard-_-13-128-470-_-Product

The chipset admittedly blows for any modern games, but you can stick a dedicated card in there later on if there is a need for one. BTW, the 8400GS is a $10 card....I have one in my closet (for backup) and that's how much I paid for it shipped a few weeks ago through a sale. Don't spend $35 on that...even this card is better:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125337


The memory is good, but is there a need for performance RAM? Even this will do for basic users:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231396

Very much rather suggest this hard drive:
http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=HD-HD502HJ&title=Samsung-SpinPoint-F3-HD502HJ-500GB-SATA2-7200rpm-16MB-Hard-Drive

This power supply would be more than enough even with a video card like the Radeon 5670 and is a quality unit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371033&cm_re=antec_power_supply-_-17-371-033-_-Product




I'd go with the Z623 if gaming is the intention here. The soundstage for the Logitech ought to be better than the SoundSticks, which seems more geared for music purposes. The Z623 should have excellent music playback in itself too though.

Anyways, you might find this user review insightful http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Y4M1TSE43BN9



I think he mean a device who can read flash memory card similar to those memory cards you have in a digital camera.


@DarkOneVenzar: Is that correct?

Yeah, he is looking for one for SD cards and the like. Will that micro ATX board fit in a normal sized ATX case? I believe it is a mid tower that we currently have for. He won't play any modern games, but more the old Age of empires games or Diablo 2 which would run on integrated stuff just fine I think.
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i grind hard
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:43 am

Alright, so I'm in the process of building a new computer for the inevitable 24-27" monitor I'm going to buy, along with the fact my old one is getting a bit, well old. It still plays all the games I have at 1680x1050 just fine, but it's on the brink of having to turn down settings off the max, and I know it won't be able to handle 1920x1080.

But anyways, the biggest thing for me is the extra $100 to upgrade to Windows 7. I'm running XP 32-bit right now, what advantages if any will 7 give me over XP if the computer is purely for gaming and light web work?
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Melly Angelic
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:54 am

Yeah, he is looking for one for SD cards and the like. Will that micro ATX board fit in a normal sized ATX case? I believe it is a mid tower that we currently have for. He won't play any modern games, but more the old Age of empires games or Diablo 2 which would run on integrated stuff just fine I think.

I think so probably it would fit in that tower.
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DeeD
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:49 am

what advantages if any will 7 give me over XP if the computer is purely for gaming and light web work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directx#DirectX_10
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Krista Belle Davis
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:10 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directx#DirectX_10

Point made, and really bad that I overlooked the most obvious thing. :shakehead:
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Matthew Warren
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:21 am

Alright, so I'm in the process of building a new computer for the inevitable 24-27" monitor I'm going to buy, along with the fact my old one is getting a bit, well old. It still plays all the games I have at 1680x1050 just fine, but it's on the brink of having to turn down settings off the max, and I know it won't be able to handle 1920x1080.

But anyways, the biggest thing for me is the extra $100 to upgrade to Windows 7. I'm running XP 32-bit right now, what advantages if any will 7 give me over XP if the computer is purely for gaming and light web work?

Depends on what version of XP you are upgrading from, and what version of Windows 7 you are upgrading to.

If you had XP Pro and are upgrading to 7 Home, you'll lose Remote Desktop (Server, you can still have the client) and Group Policies -- You'll have to get Windows 7 Pro if you want those.

You'll lose 16-bit compatibility if upgrading to 64-bit. Some games have 16-bit installers which won't work because of this, but many have workarounds (full 16-bit applications won't work at all unless you can run it in DOSBox, which can't be done for Win 95/98 games).

You'll also lose the ability to install unsigned drivers. There are ways to do it, but are far from ideal. Not an issue for most, but is for some.

As far as what you'll gain: DX 10 and 11, obviously, much better Shadow Copy, the ability to image your hard drive built in (CloneZilla is still superior in my book though), better SSD support (TRIM built in), and, IMO, significantly improved device management.
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Kat Lehmann
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:26 pm

I recently purchased a 1TB external HD and was wondering why it says it only has 970 GB of usable space? Does this have something to do with the "Allocation unit size" option that pops up when you format it? Does it have something to do with certain Filesystems? or is it something to do with the way bytes are calculated or something?

Would greatly appreciate an explanation!
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c.o.s.m.o
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:09 am

I recently purchased a 1TB external HD and was wondering why it says it only has 970 GB of usable space? Does this have something to do with the "Allocation unit size" option that pops up when you format it? Does it have something to do with certain Filesystems? or is it something to do with the way bytes are calculated or something?

Would greatly appreciate an explanation!

1 TB = 1000 GB = 1000000 MB = 1000000000 KB = 1000000000000 B (if you look on the box for the drive, it'll Properly define a Terabyte like that)

What Windows calls a terabyte is actually a tebibyte. Tera is an decimal prefix (base-10), computers use base-2 (binary), which tebi is.

Basically: you can blame Microsoft for using the wrong prefixes. They should have used GiB instead of GB and TiB instead of TB

Edit: Also, if yours is reporting 970 GB, then you have more than you should. a TB drive = 931 GiB. Curious as to what company made it, as I've never seen one give that large of a discrepancy.
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Kathryn Medows
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:53 am

Edit: Also, if yours is reporting 970 GB, then you have more than you should. a TB drive = 931 GiB. Curious as to what company made it, as I've never seen one give that large of a discrepancy.


Sorry just threw a random number out there as I don't have it with me currently (I'm in a Starbucks) and I forgot what the actual discrepancy was. It's a Fantom Drive.

Thanks for the info :)
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lauren cleaves
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:03 pm

i need a good cheap gaming laptop, any ideas?
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Mark Churchman
 
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