"The consoles can't handle it!"

Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:01 am

the good bit about consoles

-> devs need to optimise


consoles can handle

cloth physics

minor tessellation (for water, maybe cloth too)

fully dynamic lighting

destructible environments

detail textures

godrays

mass ai

awesome animations

very large worlds.




problem is- devs dont try to do all of these (exept crytek,epic and id because they are mad) if bethesda did all this then i would be very happy.



but then pcs can do stuff BETTER- all of the above plus

advanced tessellation - i dont even think bethesda have to do any of this- they should kindly ask ati or nividea to do it for them at the cost of letting them put a little logo up when the game turns on!

realistic particle effects

more filled worlds
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Olga Xx
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:48 am

if theres no dx11 effects, high rez textures, or a true PC-UI --- One can't help but say consoles did infact hold it back.
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Theodore Walling
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:56 am

I bought my monitor like 1-2 years after the consoles came out... and it was 2560x1600... and to this day it is still hard to find programs that attempt to support it. That is being held back when technology almost as old as the consoles is not being used effectively.
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NIloufar Emporio
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:53 am

if theres no dx11 effects, high rez textures, or a true PC-UI --- One can't help but say consoles did infact hold it back.


devs must master the console before they can start the pc....



bethesda arent even trying that :facepalm:
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JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:58 am

devs must master the console before they can start the pc....



bethesda arent even trying that :facepalm:

What? The consoles are not going to get direct x11 just because bethesda would try, either it is there or it is not, and it's not. Thus, they cannot use dx11 on consoles and are most like not going to use it on PC either, the once who want to extend the graphics into dx11 can do so on PC anyway.
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Sarah Evason
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:38 am

Turn on AA and it bogs down a PC more than just using a higher resolution... I know from experience

He speaks with wisdom.

Hmm... True. When I turned AA on X8 my game would just CTD.

I'm just saying they aren't going to go that extra mile, put a lot of effort into it y'know? Though, I'm not exactly sure how much effort actually does go into adding AA.

I bought my monitor like 1-2 years after the consoles came out... and it was 2560x1600... and to this day it is still hard to find programs that attempt to support it. That is being held back when technology almost as old as the consoles is not being used effectively.

How many people even have a PC with a resolution of that size? I'm going to guess not so many.

Years don't matter, the majority matters, and whatever that majority is I'm guessing Bethesda is going to try to accommodate as far as hardware is concerned.
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Leanne Molloy
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:36 am

But regardless of whether consoles are holding back Bethesda, it may be that they are holding back the industry as a whole, but that's not the fault of the consoles themselves.

It's a conglomeration of things, really, with a nice sprinkling of a feedback loop. Even when PCs are the dominating platform(*), having console ports are still nice for that extra bit of cash flow. Generally, this isn't much of a problem, because console generations usually last about 5 or so years, so the hardware isn't terribly out of step. PC games will have options to turn down features for older PCs anyway, so it fits that it will still run on consoles without too much trouble (though sometimes you'll see missing or toned down features). However, with this extended console generation, developers have to make more sacrifices to maintain console compatibility and so can't take full advantage of newer PC tech, which just leads to them targeting more towards the consoles. And with developers targeting more toward the consoles, gamers are more likely to buy the favored console version, which makes developers favor the console versions more, which makes gamers more likely to buy console version, etc, etc. This loop won't be broken until gamers realize they can have something so much better, and demand that of developers, or the next consoles are released.

(*) This should be clarified with "for certain game types". It's really undeniable that consoles are better for some genres, and PCs are better for others. The trouble is that genres that are better suited for PCs (like FPSs and western RPGs), are being warped to favor systems they aren't best suited for.
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Rich O'Brien
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:56 am

Hmm... True. When I turned AA on X8 my game would just CTD.

I'm just saying they aren't going to go that extra mile, put a lot of effort into it y'know? Though, I'm not exactly sure how much effort actually does go into adding AA.


How many people even have a PC with a resolution of that size? I'm going to guess not so many.

Years don't matter, the majority matters, and whatever that majority is I'm guessing Bethesda is going to try to accommodate as far as hardware is concerned.



Any vid card dx10 or newer supports it, and it does not take anything above a mid range pc to run it at max settings with newer games like ME 2 because it eliminates the need for a lot of gpu/cpu hog effects like AA and AF (assuming the games had higher res textures). Those features waste a lot of time making calculations for what *might* be between blocks while just increasing the resolution fills in the gaps without any calculations. The monitors cost as much as buying a solid state HD or 2 and would improve perormance a lot more.... they definitely cost a lot less than 50-60" TV that a lot of console gamers use.
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Chantelle Walker
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:00 am

Though you have to remember, Todd Howard also said that he prefers the 360 over the PC, so of course his "vision" would work on his preferred system. The console's age may not be holding Skyrim back because Todd isn't aiming much higher than what the console can do.

To put it into perspective, targeting Skyrim (released late 2011) to run on the 360 (released late 2005), would be similar to targeting Morrowind (released early 2002) to run on the N64 (released mid/late 1996), give or take a few months and storage capacity not withstanding. Though if you wanted to wait until the 4MB RAM upgrade (making the system total 8MB, over the default 4MB), that came out much later.


This is actually pretty much the definition of consoles holding games back? By tailoring everything to a weak system, the strong ones lose out.

It's not that the Pc can runthe game more smoothly or has better graphics. The Ps3 uses blu-ray discs for goodness sakes I'm sure its more than capable of keeping up with a pc especially since you could put an operating system on there. It's pretty much a consoled Pc. The problem as far as graphics go is that they need a uniform graphic level across all three platforms so that one doesn't have a better gameplay experience. The only sstem really behind the curve at this point is the xbox because its focus was soley fo gaming with microsoft having its stake in computers well before their console. As far as open cities, its been said before, but that has nothing to do with graphics or capabiltes. It's senseless to have a huge open city during times of war and instability
it pretty much doesn't make sense at all for the time period even in peace times.


No, the size of your primary storage has nothing to do with how many pixels you can push out of your GPU. While DVD is an aging medium and is getting to be too small at times, multiple DVDs still work fine, and a hard drive is much faster than either DVD or Blu-ray (Which is why even on console you should always install your games), as well as stronger compression being viable on PC, where we have the extra power to decompress it in reasonable time and store it on the disk, wheras consoles have to be able to decompress on the fly for those who don't install. For some games this can mean a major advantage to the PS3, where less compression is necessary, though.

Seeing as these games are made for the general public, and not everybody can just drop 1000-2000 USD on a computer just for games I don't think the consoles are responsible for holding games back. I think the only thing that is responsible is that Bethesda doesn't think it's worth it to invest time into making their games so graphically awesome for the 10% of PC players who can run it on max graphics.

Also another thing for people to remember is that comparing the base specs of the XBOX 360 with your PC isn't exactly accurate. The XBOX is made solely for running games, that is it uses no other resources. But PC's are not made exclusively for running games, there are many things running on your PC taking up resources, and if your not to savvy with PC's (as generally most gamers might not be) it could be bogging your system down a ton.

Bethesda isn't just concerned with whats the best thing PC's can do these days, but more along the lines of how can we allow as many people as possible to enjoy our games.


I'm not willing to drop 1000-2000 USD on a PC, I paid about $500 (At the time, exchange rates fluctuate and so). We've actually got to the point where, for games like Oblivion, most other used resources are actually effectless. 4GB RAM is quickly becoming standard - as most games use a 32bit runtime that limits them to 2GB RAM, that gives another 2GB RAM for the OS and other applications - as in, plenty. With multi-core CPUs, and games designed for CPUs orders of magnitude weaker, even light-to-middling tasks have no effect, and for most games something reading from your hard drive won't make a big performance difference. Oblivion isn't one of those games, but vanilla, at least, drives are more than fast enough to take both.



I think if you look at it logically, it's pretty clear that games being developed for machines 6 years old with no advancement since them hold back progression. It's not really something you can argue against.
The point that making a game for decent PCs would lock it out of both lower end PCs and Consoles is a fallacy, and people should stop doing it.

edit: Oh, and pretty much any card can push 2560x1600 at your desktop, higher end gaming cards can push it in games. It's by no means a difficult resolution to achieve, but because 1920x1080 is "Full HD" (Which is a pet peeve all on its own) there's no marketing.
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vicki kitterman
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:33 am

With tessellation, developers won't need to create thousands of LOD models; thus speeding up development and directing that time towards other important things. It would also eliminate the need for the "cell" system used in Bethesda games. Houses, dungeons, and cities could be connected to the game world providing a seamless environment.
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Cameron Wood
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:00 am

If you want big take this upcoming pc execlusive: infinity the quest for earth a 1:1 size to scale galaxy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7eREddMjt4&feature=related
See the stars in the background and the nebula, yeah that's actually there as in you can go to those stars.


Thanks for that link! That game looks beyond amazing! :woot:
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Maeva
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:22 am

This is the same thing I have posted on this point forever. I have made it in countless threads like this and will continue to do so. (Also, not going to read all 7 pages to check if this is resolved, so if it is just skip this post)

And to answer the OP's question for the hundredth time (seriously, this gets asked a LOT), it is because in a game like Risen, the models are very, very simple and none of the items have actual physics on them. I'll use the example I used last time. Look at Bruma. 22 buildings (some with more than one cell bringing the total to about 42, not including the Castle. That is 42 additional objects to render, not including doors, containers, lighting effects, furniture, or regular items. there are about 65 people in Bruma, including guards. All would have to be rendered at the same time, while if they keep it in separate cells you only have maybe 8-10 NPCs walking around at once. So to do this in Bruma, you need to render all of Bruma, plus all 65 NPCs, plus all 42 cells. Then the doors, furniture, containers, lights, and other stuff which we look at next.

I just took a look at Baenlin's house. The guy you can kill in DB by dropping the wall mounted thing on him. Just the main part, not his basemant. Over 200 objects to render, not including NPCs and stuff I already counted like the actual building interior. More than 90% of the objects have physics. That is over 180 objects that can all fall, roll, bounce, and be interacted with. Take that, and apply it to all 22 buildings. Almost 4000 objects with havok physics being rendered at once, in addition to the furniture and other crap (which is about another 500 objects).

Try and run that on an Xbox 360. I dare you. It would crash as soon as the cell loads. Why can other games do connected interiors and exteriors? Because the items are either severely less detailed or they don't have physics or there are simple less objects to render.


How many items in Red Dead Redemption have actual physics? Not a lot. There may be some bottles that can be broken, but all of those can't move around, they just kind of shatter and disappear. How complicated is the AI? Not very, any non-quest civilian has a basic walk around town AI, a fight AI and a run AI. The AI for the second two are simple enough, if they fight, they run for the player, take cover, and shoot at him. If they flee, they detect the player's location and run any direction that isn't towards him. Bandits have just idle mode and fight mode, even easier. With the approx. 65 NPCs in Bruma, all of which are running independent AI packages, doing different things at different times that the game has to worry about. And they can get stuck being interacted with the player or other NPCs at any time, meaning they at least have to have some simple dialog at the ready for passing conversation. There is usually about 20-25 (if that) NPCs in a small city like Armadillo at any given time. 25 simple NPCs < 65 complex, well detailed NPCs

The above example isn't even counting if the cities were in open world, just if the interiors were rendered in the same cell as the city. If you have a true open world You need to render all the other crap like trees and enemies and other stuff that would be in the same surrounding cells of the city. Also, if you find the thread that came from, I went on to dig in the CS more and try and place some cells in other cells, like combining a basemant and a main section of a house. I then had to path it all again, rewrite all the packages, and add X markers to fix the countless things that are broken because the scripting is object based and needs to have more organization for the level of detail it achieves. All in all, RDR is better compared to Fable 2 than TES in terms of complexity and detail, and that is why the consoles wouldn't be able to handle it.

PS: Have you ever actually dug inside a console? The only impressive thing about them is that they can fit into such slim cases, compared to a decent desktop. Heck my laptop can run anything a PS3/360 can and it is even smaller than they are if you don't count the screen or keyboard and stuff.
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Matthew Aaron Evans
 
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Post » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:45 pm

Todd Howard is a fantastic director, the games bethesda pull out of their collective hat are my personal favorite (alongside deus ex 1) and oblivion is an all time favorite of mine. That said, unfortunately for me - todd howard also like his controller.
Some games (metro 2033, Crysis, Stalker) are made with pcs in mind. These games are often lightyears ahead of what consoles can do. Crysis is still the best looking game of all time. Better even than crysis 2. Metro 2033 was absolutely insane in terms of technical features. (the game itself, was simply passable)

Even rockstar, with their utter disregard for pc gaming, made gta 4 a hugely scalable game. Sure, it barely ran on the pcs at the time. It almost required a quad core, which was inherited from it's console origins (of multi core) however it kept on scaling and scaling. Only now are people able to play the game smoothly at max settings. With 6 cores pumping @ 100% useage. Part of the reason why I want red dead redemption so much on the pc, is because I know that same system will likely return, and we will get this entire new level, of fidelity and raw detail.

So in terms of awareness, todd won't dedicate manpower where the lesser market, and his interests, do not rest. He is making the game playable on pc, in his eyes, that is enough. The game likely won't be worse on the pc, but features such as direct x 10/11 will probably not make the cut, and if they do they will only contain afterthought features. (such as dx11 shadows, rather than hardware level tessellation, which would require actual consideration of the pc platform)

What I wish would happen, would be that todd handed the pc stuff to someone who has the same needs and wishes as the pc owners on this thread, so they dedicate love into the features. The track record of oblivion suggests that this will not happen.

I predict skyrim will likely be a directx 9 game. It will have shadows, lighting, parallax mapping, and proper hardware threading. The pc version will have sliders, there will be no 64bit version.

The interface will be identical across both platforms.

This is the absolute minimum that has to happen to get people happily playing a console game on their pc. Oblivion was not a bad cross platform release, the pc version had what it needed to have.

In this case, I will put up with this. And skyrim will remain the game I most look forward to this year. Anything more will be a welcome surprise.


I guess the good angle to all of this, is that skyrim will still use our hardware to an extreme degree. I mean, the game will be hugely optimized. This means that the game will likely use all of our pc cores heavily, draw distances will scale will cpus, rather than a single cpu (the oblivion ini has multiprocessing, but its basically making one cpu cores worth of information spread across multi threads) . Even on a strong system like mine, something like tessellation would tax the framerate, at least I can know that I can now dedicate that to draw distances, and anti aliasing. And maybe even achieve a 60fps constant.

I think, the only realisic hope, is that they do some cheap dx11 effect, (dx11 shadows or something easy to do) so that modders can actually make use of the engine ability, rather than betheda actually making use of it themselves. Which has about as much chance happening, as skyrim being a bad game.
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noa zarfati
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:50 am

Sure consoles are holding PCs back. And PCs are holding supercomputers back.
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Brad Johnson
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:27 am

If you want big take this upcoming pc execlusive: infinity the quest for earth a 1:1 size to scale galaxy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7eREddMjt4&feature=related
See the stars in the background and the nebula, yeah that's actually there as in you can go to those stars.


Thanks for this. Haven't been updated on this in like, forever, and it is a nice updated since I last saw it. The size isn't new though. I could, and did, watch the time on Big Ben then fly to the other end of the galaxy in Elite II Frontier as well. And this was on a floppy game ;) I'm not too hyped up on Infinity yet though, considering how long it has taken to get this far. However, considering the size of the "team", it's one solid feat that is to be reckoned with. Suffice to say, that even if my hopes aren't through the roof, they are still higher than any Elite sequel from David Braben and co. What I loved about it was its attention to detail. For once, there was a space game/simulator that featured actual newtonian flight (rather than the arcade silliness you find everywhere today), and yes you could slingshot ;)

Here is a remake attempt on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aVf-8qVdsg
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Kanaoka
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:52 pm

I blame the Xbox 360 for holding gaming back in general. PS3 and PC exclusives look godlike compared to 360 exclusives. Microsoft needs to upgrade their hardware so they can stop holding PS3 and PC back. Multiplatform games should always have PC or PS3 as the lead platform simply because it leads to higher quality games. Thank god EA does not use 360 as lead platform anymore at least one of my favorite publishers has some sense. I'm not bashing the 360 in anyway I do own one. I'm just one of the few that are aware of the 360's hardware limititations, could you believe this comment I recieved on YouTube? "360 has a better graphics card than pc and ps3, thats why fallout new vegas had exclusive dlc" LOL.
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Claire
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:14 am

Though you have to remember, Todd Howard also said that he prefers the 360 over the PC, so of course his "vision" would work on his preferred system. The console's age may not be holding Skyrim back because Todd isn't aiming much higher than what the console can do.

To put it into perspective, targeting Skyrim (released late 2011) to run on the 360 (released late 2005), would be similar to targeting Morrowind (released early 2002) to run on the N64 (released mid/late 1996), give or take a few months and storage capacity not withstanding. Though if you wanted to wait until the 4MB RAM upgrade (making the system total 8MB, over the default 4MB), that came out much later.

Some changes I will say, however computer games changed very dramatically between Daggerfall and Morrowind as it was the dawn of 3D graphic. Daggerfall used 486 cpu to generate graphic. Morrowind typically used a genforce 3 graphic card. That jump was larger than Morrowind to Skyrim or Crysis.
Changes the last 5 years has been less but the 10 years lifetime for PS3 will not work, think they have to release a new console in 2 years or start loosing marked.
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Yvonne Gruening
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:36 am

i'm not sure but didnt todd said we will have open cities because there will be random dragon attacks that will put tears environments apart?
correct me if im wrong tho.
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Aliish Sheldonn
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 am

Sony wanted their Ps3 to last 10 years...I dunno, with all this 28nm and 22nm products coming for Pc I guess the consoles must make a move in 2012, 2013 or they will be too far behind.

Nah, devs for the PC will - as usual - compensate with extremely sloppy optimisation. Been like this forever, will not change.
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Phoenix Draven
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:08 am

Has hell frozen over? This forum appear's to be having a conversation about console's vs. pc without flaming eachother and raging!!! :D
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Elizabeth Falvey
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:28 am

So many misconceptions from console players :/

It really isn't expensive to get a pc that will run a game with better settings than a console, you could probably do the pc + monitor etc for the price of the console + a TV to run it on.

Consoles by being the main development platforms are holding back gaming technologically, thanks to scaling graphics, there's just so much more you could do with even mid-low end pcs because of the larger amounts of memory, storage etc...

Unfortunately convenience > potential performance :(

There's nothing you can do on a console that you currently couldn't do on a pc, the opposite cannot be said. Hell there's a high chance that you can emulate console exclusives on the pc if you got the right disk reader (not sure if this last bits counts as piracy, given that you have to buy the game in the example cited, if so sorry mods :P)
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Jessica Lloyd
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:41 am

Well yes, why people say thats consoles can't handle it? Does it without reason or not?
Yes there is reason for it.
When Oblivion released, game was over optimized since no one know full power of nextgen consoles before.
For example Radiant AI was very interesting feature, in combination with scripting make NPC behavior in oblivion awesome (thats was demonstrated E3 by Todd and expanded by mods), but there some flaws in in Radiant AI like high processor time usage.
I believe RAI was simplified for better performance mostly for consoles, thats was part of optimization for them, like divided by cells cities, I say again oblivion was over optimized since no one know full power of nextgen consoles before.
But now developers utilize full power of consoles since they experienced more with them, for example use level design for compensate low graphic details, thats create very nice small places but if overused open world become number of corridors or shafts where player cant leave artificial borders.
Another thing consoles uses outdated hardware thats cant handle new technologies just look at MGE or OBGE how they add thats missing features for PC,
another thing User Interface, UI must be different for PC and consoles, consoles cant handle shortcuts like PC game, they just have small number of buttons to handle all functions thats can be overridden by context switching or key combination but long combinations isn't friendly, so features become simplified or removed, they cant handle compact or zoomable user Interface and details become big and slow, controller doesn't allow quick actions so game become slowed down.
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FITTAS
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:33 am

Has hell frozen over? This forum appear's to be having a conversation about console's vs. pc without flaming eachother and raging!!! :D

The lack of trolls in this forum is almost scary, it’s feels wrong just as an old empty house in a horror movie.

No sign of any turn troll enchantment on the forum either.
Perhaps we have reached a so high level that trolls has disappeared form the bottom of the levelled list of forum members.
Remember the pre launch Morrowind forum not only lots of trolls but the quality of the trolls was horrible.
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Ricky Rayner
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:26 pm

The lack of trolls in this forum is almost scary, it’s feels wrong just as an old empty house in a horror movie.


They say that a monstrous bear lives in that house, and that anyone who ventures in there is mauled by him and his hammer.
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steve brewin
 
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Post » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:45 am

Technology only limits people who see their potential dependent on technology. In this current generation, quality games from all stretches of the gaming sphere break boundaries and expectations. I still, after all this evidence, see no reason why the immensity and magic of Skyrim will not be fully realized on consoles.
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Krystina Proietti
 
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