I think people are just scared of change. I love to roleplay, and it's something I'll gladly do whenever I can. I don't think Skyrim will make that difficult for me.
I mean sure, there are things that are gone, like cuirass and greaves are one, and you can't pick your pre-made skills and name your class "officially" this time around. Weapons and armors don't break and so on. The removal of these things aren't things that actually have a great impact on immersion in my opinion.

If it was Oblivon as it is now, and you removed things from it, then it would be a kick in the nuts, that's not the case however. We can marry, we can have companions, a more living world, a more well constructed world, more voiceactors, better and more "realistic" graphics unlike Oblivions "softness" and so much more. You actually get better in the "skill" you're using. Doing one handed? You get better at it. Doing magic? You're getting better at it. Not alot of numbers and levels to keep track of. All those numbers for me in the previous games was more of an immersion-breaking thing. Sure, some things are gone, or replaced with another system, but how does that actually prevent you from roleplaying at all? I think these are merely words and the fear of change, and hard to picture anything else from what you've done before.

We can still do pretty much the same stuff, in a different way, and more. Bring on the change, we'll get used to it. I for one am looking forward to the change.

Maybe I get too much into the games and movies I play and watch. There are some movies I try to watch that are so far out in left field from reality that I just can not enjoy them. Others can and that is fine, but I just keep banging my head against the fact that THIS CAN NOT EVER REALLY HAPPEN that I can no longer enjoy the movie. Just give me a reason, sci-fi or fantasy as to why it can work and I am fine with it.

Take SK armor. If I am told, and it is convincing, that all SK armor is magical and can not degrade do to some enchantment aura around it, then I am ok. But just giving me the armor and saying, here is your armor, wear it forever, just does not work for me. I will never get my head around that.

Added to that the fact that armor repairing has been in TES games since the beginning and has always been a strategic part of the RP. Taking this out changes the game playing strategy completely. I’m not saying it worked perfectly in OB, but it should have been fixed, not removed.

This game is sounding more and more like Dragon Age. All they need now is to combine armor and greaves (done) and infinite arrows for bows (scared to even ask).

Sure, I can pretend anything. The reason I choose The Elder Scrolls to pretend with is that it is a lot easier to roleplay with something that supports my fantasies, rather than say, Bejeweled or Hoyle Card Games. Every time they take away a fantasy support from The Elder Scrolls, it makes me work that much harder to create my fantasy world.

But what when they remove something but add another? Even if it's the removal of something that's replaced with something much greater? That seems to be the case for most things so far, well, if you ask me anyway. Perhaps not on paper though.

Wonderful post OP! When it comes to roleplaying in my video games, I like to have the groundwork set and then go off it as my imagination takes me. The TES games don't directly allow for religious practice, and given most of the storylines if it was included it would more than likely be restricted to Aedra worship. That has never stopped me from viewing my character as a Daedra worshipper. I very often have my imagination go wild depending on the atmosphere of the game, so there are little storylines I write myself in order to flesh out the world, character interaction or things that might actually motivate my character (instead of just "the journal told me to do it!"). Skyrim feels like it's going to be just as heavenly as Morrowind was when it comes to allowing me to build on the atmosphere and my character's place in the world. It may not suit a lot of people's roleplaying style, but the more I read about the game, the more I feel it is highly geared towards mine.

Your crazy to think Skyrim sounding a lot like Dragon Age...on whay basis do you come to that conclusion. All of the demo plays have indicated the Skyrim plays and feels like a TES game.

So what if they combine some armour types, they did it so all races (which are more unique this time around btw) can mesh well with any type of armour without subtracting the proper look. Besides that's a strange thing to complain about, geez!

You don't even know if armour and weapons can break... it was said in on of the PAX interviews that weapons can be sharpened, so that may mean that they can become dull. In Daggerfall you couldn't repair your equipment yourself and had to get it repaired at a shop or in a guild, most of the time I sold the broken equipment and got another. Another strange thing to complain about.

I agree with the OP and Skyrim has given us several toys to play with despite some of the unimportant things people can't seem to live without

I agree, most of the jokers will complain if you take $10 from them and give them back $20. The features that I have seen so far supercede all of the negatives 10 fold.

Some things they have added I'm quite excited about--Pickpocketing sounds really fun this time around--others I DON"T WANT--such as infallible quest markers, and the new map. Perhaps the map won't bother me as much as I think, but even so, I would prefer a map looking map--paper, and not necessarily completely accurate. I want to discover much of the game on my own, without omnescient markers and maps.

Yay for opinion myopia?
What you consider important others may consider irrelevant, and what you consider unimportant others may consider to be of huge importance.

Let's get this out of the way...here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game ...read :snoring:

Now that we have a firm grasp of what RPG means we can get on with the topic :goodjob:

Skyrim, and Oblivion/Morrowind/and Fallout 3 for that matter, isn't allowing you to "roleplay" less.

However in terms of customization options and furthermore the bigger area Skyrim is failing at is RPG -Mechanics- as in the systems in the game of which there are many but since the 2000s have been constantly getting cut and some are starting to be reintroduced as "innovations."

My disappointment is in RPG mechanics, as stats matter in an RPG just as much as the ability to roleplay.

D&D for example.

Skyrim is looking to be the best game so far in RP terms. The game world recognizes player interaction much better and reacts to it in much more ways now, so it's easier to role play without feeling like your just pretending all the time. Not to mention radiant story can tailor quests to your character, their skills and their relationships with NPCs.

Skyrim isn't as classic an RPG as Morrowind was...doesn't make it any less of an RPG :rolleyes:

Stats and numbers are important for some RPG, for instance when you have combat that isn't kinetic, like in Morrowind, and whether you hit or not is determined by a dice roll. In those kinds of RPG numbers are of course very important for the mechanics, combat, lockpicking etc. And in extension also to the Role-Playing as the numbers play a huge role in most things you do!

If you want to play RPG where numbers are one of the most important aspects of the game, I don't think The Elder Scrolls is the best choice anymore...the series has become something different (and imo something much better and more immersive)!
However, playing Morrowind atm I can see what people are missing in OB and are likely to miss in Skyrim...but immersion isn't one of those things! A prime example of immersion-breaking is the combat...you can stand right in front of an Orgrim and miss endlessly! That's not cool...not even though it's the way A LOT of RPG have done it before...doesn't work in a FP RPG imho :whistling:

I'm with OP...don't always use the lack of potential RP and immersion to explain your disappointment in changes!

To put it short Bethesda has actually removed crap features to leave room for new better ones, some ppl dont like change and that's about it, I dont care to be honest. And if some people dislike "slow health regeneration", how can anyone think that's bad, it's actually how it works in reality, it's called metabolism folks. We all regenerate even while we are not asleep, if someone thinks it's unrealistic to recover from damage while still exploring, it's not much weirder than going to bed with lethal wounds and waking up fully recovered one hour later, or learn how to master some profession in just a few hours or less.

I totally agree with you.

I don't need classes to tell me how to play. I don't need birthsigns neither. Just pick the skills you want to make up your 'class' and use those the most. I never really used the premade classes in Oblivion and Morrowind anway. I always created a 'custom class.'

Yes, I don't understand how people can complain about the class system being gone, but can't look at all the positive stuff that will add to RPing and will really make it easier to RP.

Let's look at some of the positive:
1. Blacksmithing (RP as a simple blacksmith)
2. Farming (RP as a farmer)
3. Woodcutting/working at the woodmill (RP as a hardworking laborer)
4. Cooking (RP as a chef)
5. Mining (RP as a miner)
6. Enchanting (RP as an enchanter at the College of Winterhold)
7. Better Tavern's (taverns are supposedly now livelier, with bards, more patrons, tavern brawls, etc., so visiting your local
tavern after a hard day's work now becomes more immersive)
8. Animal Companions (owning a dog becomes a viable RP option)
9. Marriage (no longer have to RP the lonely warrior, though in Oblivion, with either the Skingrad maid or the Battlehorn Castle
one, your imagination could help you with this aspect.)
10. Friends (add a little social life to TES - invite a friend to go drinking (get one of your companions to follow you) - not to mention, friends will not kick you out of their house if you barge in, in the middle of the night)
11. 3D Books (good for adding immersion. Now, you can actually see the pages flip. So, find a quiet spot in the house where the spouse won't bother you, relax in a chair, and read the lore of Tamriel to your heart's content.)


And, if some of you people still haven't got the point, here's a list of character's I've already planned out, with their own backstories and major skills they use.

1. My Nord character - character I play through the main quest with.

Skills: One-handed weapons
Archery
Light Armor
Smithing
Speech
Lockpicking
2. Imperial ranger - highly skilled in archery and use of one handed weapons. His father was a Jarl, now
murdered, and seeks justice on the men who murdered his father. His father was a friend of the Altmers of
Summerset Isle, so he was sent to Summerset Isle for his own protection as his father's will stated. While in
Summerset Isle, as a younger man he meets a young Altmer woman who he falls in love with (an Aragorn/Arwen
inspired love story).

Name: Adamus
From: Skyrim
Family: One of the jarls
Adventures: Summerset Isles, Valenwood (served as an ambassador), and Cyrodiil
Skills: One-handed weapons
Archery
Light Armor
Lockpicking
Pickpocket?
Sneak
Speech
Alchemy
Personality:
Backstory: son to a great Jarl of Skyrim. Father murdered, and sent to live among the Altmer of
Summerset Isles as per his father's will. Served as ambassador to Valenwood for the king of Summerset Isles.


4. An Orc barbarian/gang leader (leads orcs on raids on smaller settlements) - Well skilled in two handed weapons

and heavy armor. I'm hoping there's plenty of possible orc companions - also nice to be able to equip companions

with armor.

Name: Grok
From: Orsinium
Family: A father
Adventures: Has raided settlements in High Rock and Hammerfell. Sends weekly shipments back to Orsimer
through one of his orc contacts. Loyal to Orsimer
Skills: Two-handed weapons
Block (can we block with two handed weapons)
Smithing?
Heavy Armor
Lockpicking
Conjuration (learned from an orc shaman for help on raids)
Personality: Violent, paranoid,
religiously devout to the daedric prince, Malacath
believes many orcs outside to have betrayed their race by intermingling too much with
the humans and elves.
Backstory: son to an orc captain in the Orsinium army.


5. A Khajiit mercenary/drug dealer - extremely competent in close quarters combat with two daggers or two short
blades. A mercenary whose not very good at his job (not a very good problem solver), and so smuggles/produces
Skooma. Joins the Thieves guild.

Name:
From: ,Skyrim
Family:
Adventures: Cyrodiil and Elsweyr
Career: Mercenary/Part-Time Skooma Dealer
Skills: one handed
pickpocket
sneak
lockpicking
light armor
Personality: Moody, irritable,
Backstory: born to a poor Khajiit family. dreamed of adventure, eventually becoming a mercenary. Hardly
any money, so he turns to the Skooma trade.
Prejudice: Dunmer, and elves in general

6. A Nord or Imperial Black Widow - romances men then kills them to symbolize the abuse she went through as an
adolescent at the hands of men in her life she trusted. She promises that every womanizin', wife abusing, child
abusing piece of scum will be killed until she finds the one responsible for her grief. The Nord warrior will have
to find the one she is after in order to lead her out into the open (How he does that...look for my fanfiction
sometime after the game is released).

Name:
From: Cyrodiil
Family: A father and mother
Adventures:
Career: Tailor
Skills: One-handed weapons
Sneak
Pickpocket
Illusion
Lockpicking
Alchemy (So she can make deadly poisons)
Personality:
Backstory:
Prejudice:

7. A Nord or Imperial Smooth-Talkin' Ladies' Man - A captain in the Imperial Army in charge of one of the
garrison's guarding the passage to Morrowind. He is a Gaston-type of personality - someone who is full of himself
and believes he is the gods' gift to Tamriel. This man is responsible for causing a psychological breakdown in the
Black Widow that causes her to go on a spree. He only just evades her wrath before she could kill him, and keeps a
group of soldiers with him as bodyguards. What did he do? He was caught with another woman when they had only just
been married.

Name:
From: Cyrodiil
Family: Father and mother; separated
Adventures:
Career: Captain in the Imperial Army
Skills: One-handed Weapons
Light/Heavy Armor?
Speech
Lockpicking
Pickpocketing?

8. Argonian shadowscale - in Skyrim on a mission to pursue an enemy of Black Marsh - A great house dunmer who
escaped Morrowind during the Red Mountain eruption - wanted dead 'cause he's got a lot of political push, and is
trying to make things bad for Black Marsh, also trying to implement slavery into Skyrim. Pursues minor target
related to the main target - how he finds the Great House Dunmer.
http://theskyrimblog.com/?p=1076 - details on Argonian lore

Name: Zar-Sabal
From: Black Marsh
Family:
Adventures: Solstheim, Morrowind, Cyrodiil, Black Marsh
Career: Currently an agent of Black Marsh, but still pulls jobs for the Dark Brotherhood of Skyrim.
Skills: one-handed weapons (better for spies/assassins)
speech (though he is a very silent type because he learned to trust no one, his career as a spy
makes speech a valuable skill
lockpicking - so he can access the homes of targets if needed
pickpocketing
sneak - good at blending into his environment, and getting inside high security areas
light armor
alchemy

Personality:
Backstory: born under the sign of Sithis, he was promptly handed over to the Dark Brotherhood (in Skyrim)
as a hatchling. He only came to know the region of Skyrim where the DB was located. By 20, he
was given his first assignment in Solstheim, then Morrowind, then Cyrodiil. By the age of 45, he
was considered an excellent professional assassin, really the top of his field, and was soon enrolled in the service of Black Marsh, as both a spy and an assassin.
Prejudice: Mainly against Dunmer, and not too trusting of Nords.

"Sithis is the patron idol of the Dark Brotherhood, indeed Argonian hatchlings born under the sign of Sithis are
handed over to be raised in the Dark Brotherhood, becoming known as ‘shadowscale’."
"It’s not clear what, if any, religious beliefs are native to the Argonians. It seems to involve worship of
Sithis, one of the two primordial beings responsible for the existence of the universe. Sithis is the patron idol
of the Dark Brotherhood, indeed Argonian hatchlings born under the sign of Sithis are handed over to be raised in
the Dark Brotherhood, becoming known as ‘shadowscale’."

9.Old Breton Wizard - a Gandalf type character (long robe, lengthy white beard, hat/or no hat, staff and
sword/staff and spell. 110 years old. Head of the College of Winterhold? Came to Skyrim many years ago to join
the college. Considered the wisest man in Tamriel, other than the Greybeards. - tricked and framed by the Altmer
sorcerer when the Greybeards disappear from High Hrothgar some time after Alduin's defeat.

10. Sorceress/Enchantress

11. Crime Lord - runs operations in southern Skingrad to northern half of Cyrodiil up to Imperial City - controls
much of the Skooma trade. Also operates in Morrowind, and also has some territory in Elsweyr. A Nord or
Imperial. Lord of a far-reaching crime syndicate that is only 50 years in the making.

12. Enforcer - works for the Crime Lord, doing his 'dirty' work. Roughs up shop owners who don't pay 'protection'
money, assassinates those who refuse, handles kidnapping, etc. An Imperial.

13. Dunmer Lord - one of the last of the Redoran House of Morrowind - have come to Skyrim seeking political asylum
in Winterhold - friend of the Jarl of Winterhold/king
-uses the argument that Argonians have no emotions, to try making slavery more acceptable.
-(eventually got a law working that ONLY Dunmer from Morrowind could have slaves)
-also trying to gain support for an invasion into Morrowind (to punish the Argonians and restore Dunmer rule).
-target for the Shadowscale
-throughout the 4th Era, he is sending secret search parties out to find the shrine of Boethiah
-finally locate it, slightly SE of Cheydinhal (several years after Alduin's defeat, and dragons still
present in the world).

-after a legendary artifact that allows one to control dragons (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Boethiah)
-Boethiah gives it as a reward - Goldbrand - The Dunmer tells Boethiah he wishes to become ruler of Tamriel and restore the Dunmer's rightful place in the world, and Boethiah gives him a test - Tournament
of the Ten Bloods
What was 'unknown' about the sword is that the wielder is able to control dragons - dragons must obey the
wielder of the blade.- Goldbrand forged by dragons, and wielded by a knight sworn to protect them

"According to the Elder Scrolls novel, ‘The Infernal City’, the Argonians exacted their revenge after the
explosion that largely destroyed Vvardenfell by invading and driving the remnants of the Dark Elves into Skyrim
and Solsteim."

14. Vampire Lord
-once used an Imperial Fort as his feeding grounds (Hans comes across a Captain's Log that details the
strange events and 'mysterious disappearances' occuring at the Fort.

15. Imperial Soldier - under command of the Imperial Legion Captain

Name:
From: High Rock
Family: Breton father, Imperial mother, and 2 sisters -he's the youngest
Adventures: Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Dragontail Mountains (to punish an orc tribe)
Career: Soldier in the Imperial Legion
Skills: One-handed
Archery (slight skill for hunting)
Light armor/Heavy armor?
Speech
Lockpicking
Pickpocketing?
Restoration

Personality: Cooking as a hobby
Backstory: joined the Imperial Legion when he was 18. Became a lieutenant when he was 22. Met a very
beautiful Imperial or Breton woman in Skyrim. Went with a legion of soldiers when he was 24
'to punish' an orc tribe in the Dragontail Mountains for several attacks on the Imperial City. His
entire legion was crushed, and he was the only survivor. Now, he is stationed at Windhelm, guarding
the passage to Morrowind.
Prejudice: Orcs, and considering his sole survivor-ship, you can understand why.

Here's how I see it...

Many of the fans from previous games have become some what 'stuck' in their ways; considering Morrowind, Daggerfall, Arena, and [yes] even Oblivion the ONLY way TES can be considered an RPG. The direction they've taken Skyrim isn't limited, it's different. It's in the minor details, you'll find your freedom. I just found out today that if you have a bow in your hand, you can still punch them [with bow in hand!!] To me, they've put a considerable amount of thought into the PC, making the mechanics as rational to life as possible. This is just ONE of the minor aspects they took into mind when taking the direction they did. To me, that's just as helpful in my role-playing as spellmaking or Birth-signs. If anything, it's more so, since I can just imagine birth-signs as I want. Spellmaking was limited at best in Oblivion. Spellmaking at it's most perfect form is unreachable.

Anyways, We all have the ability to fill in the gaps with our imagination. It's just a matter of over-coming the blocks our 'old ways' have presented us. Step outside the Morrowind/Oblivion/Daggerfall/Arena box, you might find it's a bigger world in Skyrim.

Morgueanna, you're alright in my books. Brought back fond memories of pillow forts and pretend canons that shot tennis balls for ammunition and a paper-towel-roll telescope.

I think people are misunderstanding the post. I think the OP is saying that it's great that we all want to use these forums to discuss our differing opinions about all things Skyrim, but try to keep an open mind when it comes to how you role-play your game and don't use something that is purely YOUR own opinion (i.e. your own imagination) as an excuse to add fodder to the already rampant flame wars we encounter regularly in these Skyrim forums. I can pretty much guarantee that your RP'ing from Arena all the way through to Oblivion differed slightly for all four of those TES titles. How can you say a game has taken you out of your immersion and changed the way you will role-play in the game, when you haven't even immersed yourself in the game yet? Can we really realistically expect BGS to tailor the game to each of the thousands upon thousands of fans' role-playing preferences?

Thanks for all the kind words and thanks most of all for keeping it civil! In my humble opinion, RP'ers and especially TES fans are the smartest, snarkiest gamers out there, and put too many of us in a room at once and meeeooowww

I think that as others have said, we have always seen certain aspects of these games returning in the next. In that way we came to depend on them as a staple of the game world, forgetting that each one is not a sequel, merely another chapter in a larger story. When they get taken away it's more the nostalgia and that inherent ownership that comes from loyalty that brings on the kneejerk reaction. We LOVE this world, we spend hundreds of hours building it! How dare you take things away!

But in the real world, there are real deadlines and limited development time. They had five years to build this game. In that time, they completely rebuilt the graphics engine, made entirely new graphics for each race, each piece of armor, each tree, each stone...there are literally millions of graphical details in this game. Then there is the story to be built, a language to write, characters to write, define, code, and somehow built a radiant AI that recognizes you and your achievements in the game. They rewrote spellmaking, fighting, smithing, pickpocketing, skills...the list goes on and on.

That effort has to be rewarded guys. This isn't an infinite system, there are only so many hours in the day. Not everything we love made it. I bet there are dozens of AMAZING ideas the devs had for improving this game that won't make it either. Them's the breaks.

Agreed.Couldn't say it better.
Stats..stats ..stats..Why do you want a virtual sheet of major and minor skills and other stats? Why do the stats have to be set in stone from the very start of the game? Skyrim got it right imo.The stats are still there, but now you can start off as a warrior and slowly turn into a mage.You are no longer bound by that sheet which tells you that you are warrior for the rest of the game. True,you can just ignore it and use misc/minor skills, which were less important when you started the game.Classes - an old-school limitation, that if you let them limit your gameplay; the only way you can avoid the classes is by ignoring it and pretending it's not important anymore.Yeah, just pretend.
Your character does not have a voice of his own.You make up his replies as you play the game.Or maybe you don't...that's your business..Does it mean they aren't valid just because they are imaginative? Nope.Not for me.The game's my toy, not the other way around.Most Morrowind characters have no voice.You see them, talk to them.How would they sound? You decide.Ever wondered why you didn't meet Sotha Sil? He's that kind of guy who doesn't meet with people.Vivec didn't have a voice for a good reason.You decide how he-she should sound.That's why TES is great, it's an entirely subjective experience and lets you choose much more than 'go there/don't go there'.It's you who makes the story.Mostly you.Fill the gaps with your imagination, because they are there for that reason.If they weren't, don't you think that would make the game more linear? I can see why people aren't fine with this or why they might not agree with me.Not everyone wants bother making up stuff.You don't have to anyway.It's your choice.Also, just because it isn't in the game doesn't mean it can't be there and it shouldn't be there.Canon = something copyrighted that sells.

Role playing is just acting, the big difference is that you as an actor don't know the outcome of the play.You play along.Make decisions for your character.I'll go as far as saying that leveling up is not necessary.It does not mean you shouldn't become stronger, it just means that the number is not needed.Like age, it's just a number There to keep track of your progress...but it's useless, -in my opinion-.

Well, try imagin one of the best and most exciting features that you like was in Skyrim, but in the next installmen (TES:6) all those things is removed without any good reasons. Wouldn't you be a little sad/disappointed about it? And don't tell me "well its just a design choice" cause I know that if bethesda took be thest content (example: Radiant Story) and completely removed it for TES:6, the you would deep down feel mad about what was lost.

Skills, Attributes, and Perks are just ways of defining what your character is or is not capable of doing, or at least doing well. Having those numbers staring you in the face is NOT necessary to Role-Play, but not having them at all means that there are really no meaningful distinctions between one character and the next. Without them, you might as well just play Tetris, or any FPS game, because the game has no real inherent RP elements. Sure, you can imagine them even in Tetris or Pac-Man, but it's a lot harder and less satisfying than if the game responds appropriately to your input.

In the previous TES installment, there were skills and attributes, plus perks, but the game made far less use of them than in the two games before it. Failure at alchemy, spellcasting, and other tasks was removed, or replaced by mini-games which were far more reliant on PLAYER skills than those of the character. Unless you're RP-ing yourself, it was far less satisfying than being able to do things which the character should have been incapable of, or the character not being able to do what he or she was supposed to be exceptionally good at merely because you weren't dexterous enough to get past the game mechanic. The RP elements were there, but they were slightly irrelevant, and the design of the game was more focused on action. FO3 made a few of the skills and attributes at least "semi-relevant" by requiring a minimum level to do certain quests or actions; the exact value of the skill or attribute was still irrelevant.

I'm less concerned with the details of the mechanism by which the game determines the character's abilities than I am with how the game reacts to the character's abilities instead of the player's. Going from a Skill/Attribute system to a Perk system is certainly different, but not necessarily better or worse. THAT we won't know until the game ships and players start to find out what it does or doesn't do.

Sorry OP, but losing RP types, build types etc. is inexcusable.

It's more than just using ones imagination.
The game needs to support Role Play concepts.
If there is no religious establishment or its attributes (particular spells, quests, or artifacts) that you can affect or has an effect on you, it is difficult to play a Cleric.

That's what I'm getting at really. No-one seems to care anymore sadly, whatever Bethesda says is fine and dandy :shrug:.

My question to you is: do you want a new game, or just the original game with better graphics? Because throughout your posts in different threads here, it seems to me that is what you want. You are resisting change due to a very specific playstyle you have. If you enjoy that playstyle and don't want to change, there is already a game out there for you: Daggerfall. Or Morrowind. Or Oblivion. This game is built differently, with different skills and different content. They're not lying to you about it, being deceitful in any way, they have been upfront the entire time about what they changed and why. If that's inexcusable, I guess why are you still here? It's not the game for you.