The problem I have with statements like this is they are dismissive and do not take into account what you're GETTING in return. People are pretty quick to make a detailed list of things they dislike, but are mysteriously absent in the conversations concerning the new, original content that will make many aspects of the RP and gameplay more immersive. That's why it's hard to have a discussion with you or take your opinion seriously.

I want a superior game, not one that just upgrades the graphics, while cutting out previous build types that aren't even setting, or title specific. A successor in a series should be superior, not inferior. The only people that dont care what they are given are newbs that never knew what was there in the first place. Its too much expecting more in an RPG, without having to compromise so much? Well excuse me for living. :rolleyes:

Such a gross misconception about "role playing". There are many flavors of RPG's out there. Some give you direct control of your char in combat (Witcher 2 and Oblivion) while others give you indirect control (WoW and GW). While a game can make 'role playing' easier, any game can be given a level of role play. It's up to the player and not the game. Even a game like Command and Conquer can be given a role play element by the player. As the general in charge, you can lay down your own personal code of conduct when engaging the enemy. Like not using nuclear or chemical agents, ensuring carrying out the mission means minimum civilian casualties (collateral damage).

Grant it that if the game is to labeled as an RPG that it caters to some degree to those who are wanting to really role play their character and not just treat the game as an action adventure. But how does the game need to cater? The misconception is that the game should have a skill that governs every possible action the character can perform. Having this doesn't help with role play, it takes from it. It takes from it by taking control away from the player and hands it over to the AI. If you want to 'role play' your character than you would want to have more of a direct control, as if it was you doing it and not the AI doing it for you.

What really provides the role play, is your characters interaction with the virtual world and its inhabitants. Which, of course, if you have a more direct control it really becomes your interaction. It has to be both immersive and believable. They have taken great advancement from the other games to provide this. Taking on a profession, forming relationships, talking to a person more naturally (not zoom in on their face while the world freezes). They've even improved the AI to be more responsive to you (your character).

Now, I always prefer a game where I can create my own character but to think that it is necessary for it to be a role playing game is just plain ludicrous. Role playing is taking on the role of a character and more often then not (real acting in mind here) the actor doesn't create the character they will be playing in a play/movie. They are given a character that they must fit themselves into.

Game is still not out yet, but people are already complaining that it svcks...silly people.

When you roleplay you use your imagination, sure that NPC says the same thing over and over, but in my mind they are telling me that X broke in and stole one of their items or that X killed one of their family members, and then I set out on a quest to find X and recover the item or kill him for revenge. Does the npc actually tell me in game? Nope, I use my imagination. Sure Skyrim may not have the class system, but I know that my Mage character is a mage and will only use magic. I know that my Guard only uses iron armor and steel sword and shield, sure I know that their is better equipment and the game will point if out if I heard correctly, but I won't use it because I'm in character.
The game is not stopping you from doing anything, its your own imagination, but nowadays everyone just wants everything on screen,

... or you just don't want to figure out alternatives...

Their just upset because the whole game isn't pandered to them. They want the whole game to be fanservice. :rolleyes:



.....I kid, but it really does come off that way at times.

That's not a solid argument though. Do you think real knights, vikings, wild men went around saying "Yeah I am a rogue class character with plus to my sneak abilities." No that's just what they were. Thats also the feeling Skyrim is trying to give you as a player. Instead of giving yourself labels which is something we don't do in real life, you let your actions speak for you, you become better in that skill and you feel better about yourself as a person who has advanced and proven themselves a mighty wizard or a noble knight, not just because you gave yourself that label and IMO it kills the immersion to have to stop and do all that spreadsheet stuff. I understand some of you enjoy it, but you are honestly the few who do. Most of use like to play games with as little interruption as possible and that's what they are trying to do in Skyrim.

They want you to spend more time playing and enjoying the game instead of worrying about +5+5+5 when you level up. Honestly the latter kills RP more then the former does.

Alright, let's just have Skyrim be a piece of paper that you get in the mailbox. Then you have to draw everything cause that is RP!

Ok on a serious note. I get where OP is coming from but as someone said previously, we need the tools to RP. It helps with immersion and sometimes makes you actually feel like you are your character and that you feel with your character.

Er, no. Losing build types=inexcusable. My Paladin isn't magically an acrobat if there's no jump height variable. There's no alternative for cut mechanics.

Yeah, there are mechanics and features in the game that help you build up a character. In Skyrim we choose a constellation, boost up skills associated with those constellations, carve "perk trees" within those constellations, and then put points into our three existing (Stamina, Health, and Magick) attributes. Those enhanced skills, perks, and attributes then give us the ability to do certain things in the game world we would not otherwise be able to do with lower levels, such as carrying more weight, maximizing weapon damage, learning different moves, learning more powerful spells, etc.

It helps us measure and understand who we are in the game world. It's better to have these things measured out to us in numbers. If it was all under the hood, it would be a little confusing from a current gaming perspective. For example, if I use a certain weapon type long enough I get better at handling that weapon and can maximize it's use and damage. Without a number system, we would need to see and notice that progression happening first hand, but we don't experience and learn those things as if we are actually doing them, we are viewing those things on a monitor without a clear sense of progression.

In 20 years, there may be a more realistic way of viewing and experiencing the use of a weapon in a game. We would need to see and feel as if we are getting better at something without the use of numbers. In reality, when we train with a weapon, we just know through the experience, and that mental/physical progression is difficult to represent visually. Right now we need numbers and menus to help us see where we are in that progression and where we are in that desired archetype. Another way to put it is that our Characters are the ones that are progressing, we ourselves are not, and this number system is a representation of that progression that we can view and understand instantly. We know immediately what our character can and can't do, and can decide on what direction we wish to proceed.

It is better to earn that title then it is to just give yourself that title. In Oblivion you were given many titles, Crudsader (paladin) Blade (Knight) You could join the warriors guild and prove yourself a warrior, or the mage guild and prove yourself a mage. That is what the game was suppose to have been about. Instead what you got were people with preset classes who were worried more about the +5+5+5 power leveling then they were being a mage or a warrior. By removing all of that junk, and forcing you to start as a lowly adventure and increasing your skills then earning that title you feel way more connect to the game and you feel a greater accomplishment that you started out a nobody, honed your skills, and then joined the mages guild to prove that you are the most powerful wizard in all of the land. That is a way better connection with your character and better for RP then Oblivion or Morrowind ever did. I never felt that I was RPing in those games because every 5 seconds i was stopping to get out my spreadsheet. Talk about breaking immersion.

What people are really upset about is the spreadsheet aspect of it because there is no argument int he world that can say that what Oblivion and Morrowind did was more immersive for RP then what Skyrim is trying to do.

You are the reason why most people hate getting on these forums. You are naming things that are practically meaningless (jump height? whatever dude).

So I guess from all of your posts you fail to say, "gaining build types=excusable" because there are several features in the game that require some sort of building to perfect or complete, i.e. smithing, alchemy, enchantment, mining, woodcutting, cooking, farming, relationships, guild memberships, dragon shouts, dungeon crawling (guaranteed to be improved), and others that I can't think of.

I agree. The assumption that defending some of the changes made, or simply waiting and seeing, automatically makes people slavishly adhering to Bethesda's beck and call, is really getting in the way of some otherwise good discussions on the forums. A similar thing happens on the Bioware forums.

Good OP, though.

All of those were possible RPs in previous games. Yes, jump height, you can make lots of builds around it.

The removal of spell creation alone removes all types of almost limitless RP potential and customization options.

Were you going to make a point, or just pseudo flame?

My point was pretty clear I thought. I understand you can't make builds from jump height in Skyrim but you can with everything else I mentioned which trumps all of the "builds" you said were removed.

no, it doesnt trump anything, especially since all of those RPs you mentioned were possible in previous games, like I said. not to mention the rest of the cut stuff, not just jump height variables.

As I see it, the bottom line is this:
Every time the character conception in my head and what I see on the screen are different, and demand that I make up a rationalization, the game has failed to be the perfect CRPG. The perfect CRPG would demand no imaginative interpretation, because my character would be perfectly realized. That's how I define what a CRPG is.

Don't get me wrong. I don't expect any CRPG to be perfect. But the more I have to imagine on my own, the less the game can really be considered an RPG.

Hey, I can rationalize, imagine, invent, and justify with the best of them. I will make up reasons why my illiterate character was still able to use the book to locate the hidden entrance. Why my charisma character wanted that NPC to be mad at me. Shoehorning my ideals into the reality of what I'm looking at is my way of life as a dedicated CRPGer. But, to me, it's perfectly reasonable to be sad that something that you saw on the screen in past series iterations now has to be rationalized and kludged in this way. It definitely is a loss, and it does make Skyrim less of an RPG when these elements are taken away. On the other hand, Skyrim will also be more of an RPG because other elements have been added. The ideal would have been to add more RPG elements without taking any away, but nothing is ideal.

I roleplay as myself in every game I play; Oblivion, CoD, even GTA, and GTA is not an RPG. A game's roleplay potential is limited to the imagination of the player, period.

You don't have to lmagine on your own. Were you born a doctor or were you just a human kid who had to learn skills throughout his life that lead up to being a doctor? (I don't know if you are a doctor or not but my point still comes across) Nothing says that you can't become a knight or mage or theif and play that role. The only differences between Oblivion and Skyrim is that in Oblivion you were BORN a Wizard. In Skyrim you have to EARN that title. You can still be a wizard, or thief and role play it just as you could in Oblivion.

is just this forum that is full of [censored]

That's a big difference in terms of role-play. The story of a talented kid who just picked up magic as he went along and saved the world is much different from the story of a grizzled old man who studied hard all his life and then rose to the challenge of a crisis. In Skyrim, every character is just a talented kid with no particular strengths, so Skyrim is placing big limits on who our character can "really be" ... unless we just use the "let's pretend" rule. I maintain that every time I have to "let's pretend", the game has failed to deliver me an RP option.

Okay, I understand where you're coming from. But I don't think Skyrim is going to force us into that grizzled man role. They have confirmed a mages guild so you could make a high elf mage who is adept at magic and so she starts honing her skills while shes a no one in the world. But she feels powerful enough and joins the mages guild and proves herself the mightiest wizard of them all, and then as a mighty high elf wizard you can save the world. Instead of a grizzled old man.

I understand your point I really do. But I think you are assuming Skyrim will force you into said role, where I think that it will have more freedom then you believe it to have. I could be wrong, I really could and I will admit it if I am. But I think Skyrim will be a much more rewarding and immersive experience then the past games have been.

Er, Zombra was saying that Skyrim forces you into the role of the talented kid, not the grizzled old man.

No, all online forums of games tend to have the typical hardcoe, vocal minority who want the game to be catered to their every whim, regardless of whether what they want is fun, profitable for the company, or good for the game itself. They want to play arm-chair developer. They want the game to push away casual fans because they ruin everything, and they want it to also lock out would be fans because they are newbs. :rolleyes:

...Or they just have their own ideas about what would make the game good? You know, like everyone else? 'Regardless of whether what they want is fun'... what is 'fun' is relative to the individual playing the game.