Did you not see the "roll eyes" emote? I am not being completely serious here. You guys need to lighten up.

Ah, then my apologies, but in my defence a 'roll eyes' emote could be interpreted in any number of different ways.

Yet the fact that I talked about how free this game will let you be still falls on deaf ears. If you have to work your way through the mages guild to get the title of powerful wizard, how is that no different then the old man who had to work hard all his life? See in Oblivion you were born with a title. That's not how life works. You have to work hard for it and in the end ACTUALLY have to work for that tittle is more of a RPing experience then just saying *yeah im this grizzled old powerful dude, believe me because i said so* vs *Hey I am powerful and I will prove it to you through hard work achieving that status of being a powerful old man*

I guess my big problem here is I am just to open minded of the experience that I will have to earn my titles and RPing that, where as what you guys want is to already start as that powerful dude without the experience of actually learning it. With factions in the game you can still earn titles, and that's what you guys want but you have to earn them.

Because we weren't born in prison. We didnt live a sheltered, prison life through the whole back story. Now we do, we are not given a choice etc. Its all part of Beth's strategy to appeal to the lowest common denominator, not having to make any choice other than race at the beginning of the game.

Yeah, except that you don't start as a child new to the world. You start as a grown wo/man who realistically could well have some level of prior experience, especially if you increase the age slider a bit. Skyrim forces you into the 'talented kid new to the world' role, while Oblivion went for something of a middle ground.

For the record, I personally prefer Skyrim's way, but I believe that both ways have merits.

No but a man who was just about to be killed for his crimes has to earn his title in the world just as well as everyone else. Prove to these people you are a powerful wizard. Don't just expect them to give you that title.

Also if that was the case, why doesn't starting at level 1 in oblivion bother you? You this guy who previous experience, but you have to work your way up in levels? How is that any different then what they are doing here? Besides that you have to earn your title.

Also I am sure that by the time you finish the starter quest that you will have gained skills in the points you want, so you won't be starting off with no learned skills. They will just be lower then usual. Which makes sense in my opinion.

We werent born in prison. Prison isn't, and shouldnt be a prologue respec.

There's a difference between immersion and role-play. Role-play is up to the participant (the reader, the player), while immersion is provided by the environment (the book, the game, the movie, etc.). Immersion leads to inspiration, and inspiration to creativity. Creativity is essential to role-playing, and an environment that is not conducive to immersion can interfere with your inspiration and creativity. We don't buy games to make up everything ourselves. We want the immersion and atmosphere to be provided to inspire our creativity. You wouldn't enjoy a book completely lacking in atmosphere and descriptors, nor would you appreciate it if the author told you to use your imagination. That's not the point of a good book. The book should do most of the work to bring you into the world it describes.

That said, some people use RP I think interchangeably for both, as more of an idea than an action. That may be a mistake, but I can usually understand where they are coming from, as I'm sure you can too, unless you are simply being a pedant. Still, role-playing is much easier when you are better immersed, as it aids in creativity. That is one reason why artists and writers surround themselves with certain things, or certain places, to aid in their creativity. It is why some even meditate or listen to certain types of music to help inspire them.

Isn't that the beginning of both Morrowind and Oblivion? I'm sorry, I guess I'm lost on what point you're trying to make.

I said that I personally preferred Skyrim's approach, and what you have just pointed out is actually one of the major reasons why. There is no perfect system - a system ideal for roleplay would have negative implications for gameplay, and vice versa.

Both Ob and Morrow allowed you to have a character back story, skill and proficiency wise. Daggers was even better and more in depth. While Sky is going "no real choices other than race at the beginning". Which is a move to appeal to newbs and the unreceptive. Because they said people were ruining their builds, which i would say, if people just want to switch up builds on the fly, they didnt have a build in the first place.

Skyrim, and Oblivion/Morrowind/and Fallout 3 for that matter, isn't allowing you to "roleplay" less. I wouldn't really debate that angle. One could argue a large element of roleplaying and interaction has been stripped out from RPGs transition from a tabletop game to the computer, laptops, consoles, tablets, and cellphones/smart phones

However in terms of customization options and furthermore the bigger area Skyrim is failing at is RPG -Mechanics- as in the systems in the game of which there are many but since the 2000s have been constantly getting cut and some are starting to be reintroduced as "innovations."

My disappointment is in RPG mechanics, as stats matter in an RPG just as much as the ability to roleplay.

D&D for example.

dont buy the game, just sit in your living room and "role play"

I'm not talking about titles at all, at all. I'm talking about role-playing freedom, by which I mean the ability to envision a character and be him in game.

Skyrim, in essence, supports ONE character: a talented kid with no particular strengths, who might grow up to be a murderer or a paladin or a pickpocket or the greatest mage of all time ... but still, a talented kid and nothing more at the moment. Now, that's a fine character! It's a cool character, and I don't have a problem with it. It's basically Luke Skywalker, and I like Luke Skywalker. The problem is that Luke is the ONLY character you can start off as, in terms of the game actually reflecting the character you imagine in your mind.

Now, I AM going to do as the OP suggests, and I have complicated backstories imagined for a few different characters. I'm just going to say that my fighter has long years of mercenary experience but can't cast a spell to save her life. I'm going to say that my mage has been studying magic for decades (although his practical skills are a little weak), and he's too effete to even lift a sword, much less swing one. The game isn't going to reflect this at all. They are going to start out with almost identical abilities. They can both shoot fireballs and sword fight with equal facility.

In Oblivion, you couldn't start off as a talented kid with no strengths, because ... you had strengths. You chose skills to start off good at. You could be an old man with magical skill, a knife-wielding woman with a checkered past, an experienced burglar, healer, assassin, whatever. This stuff was all supported by the game. You were still restricted by what makes a good game, i.e. you started off weak in your profession so you had something to build, but you still had a ton of options that you could see; the difference between two imagined character histories actually mattered on the screen. Leaving other considerations aside, that makes Oblivion the better RPG by my terms.

None of my characters start of in the prison, while yes they do when I start up the game they do, I just ignore that part. Why? Because all my characters have a background of where they live, personality, what has happened in their life's, ect ect. As soon as I get out, I travel to their place of origin and start rping.

Honestly right now it just seems that people are just complaining just to complain. :shakehead:

If this game fails as much as you think it does, just don't buy it and stop posting simple as that, no amount of QQing is going to bring that features that you want.

Like I said before the game is still not out yet..silly vocal minority.

So Skyrim is less appealing because you don't make those choices in the beginning? You seem to be pretty proficient at charting out your characters beforehand, how is this going to change your experience? It sounds to me as if you are implying people who do not have a build in mind in the beginning are somehow inferior to you.

If your issue is with the lack of a defined class system why attack the Skill Tree system. But even just the Tree itself adds that roleplay element. It's very hard to argue roleplaying is damaged in any way.

As to Xarnac, your character is just as defined/undefined as past games. Again your some sort of prophetical being/unique and left in a cloudy mud to assume the role. Which has nothing to do with the systems and if your against this process well bad luck:

All TES games have done the same thing.

Skyrim's lacking in a depth of RPG Mechanics(Although it's an RPG Messiah compared to Fallout 3)

A skill tree bolsters defining your character. It doesn't weaken it.

Skill trees have been in thousands of commercial and community games for multiple decades. You can't blame the system itself because it can't be blamed in a roleplaying front.

You can however critique it to other available RPG systems. However the Skill Tree system is one of the most popular and long standing ones.

I myself am loving the skill tree system, for me its sort of the experience a certain character has, I mean no one is going to know every single thing when they are new. The more experience my character has the more things he will be able to do simple as that

Im neither here nor there about choices at the beginning or afterwords. It doesnt break my "imurshunz". None of my posts really argue for, or against. Corrections and statements on how it worked in previous games, and its reported workings in Skyrim. And Its divergence, creation wise, from previous titles in the series, is all I've really posted. And yes, naming my said class/build/profession is important. As important as naming your character, or spells, or enchanted items.

They didn't allow you a back story. Only the ability to select some bullet points of how you start off. You could set your blunt a bit higher at the start and then never use it or train for it and it never moved from where it was. You either used a skill or trained in it in order to increase it. There is little different except you make those choices by using them. Just the same really just no jump start in the beginning in whatever skill you want. This way you do your planning as your character grows stronger out in the world.

We always did that anyway.

I get what you are saying, Inigo, but it seems you are attempting Sicilian wit here. Lol.

After a fashion, you are of course correct, HOWEVER, part of the power of video game RPGs is to give visual representation to the roleplay you are imagining. When certain features are ommitted, you end up right back to where you were when you were superimposing The Forest of Mirkwood over the living room floor. . . having to visualize things that just aren't there to be seen.

The really advanced RPG games like Elder Scrolls is that so much of the visual representation is well taken care of, that the main thing you have to entirely imagine and roleplay the type of person you are, and your backstory prior to entering the game. The game offers you visual support for roleplaying much of the rest.

Not being able to jump very high, or not being able to merge certain spells, or not being able to wear just a cuirass and no pants, or just greaves and no upperbody apparel, detracts from that visual aspect.

Its like. . . if you are roleplaying old school with toys, yes you CAN pretend that a My Little Pony is Conan the Barbarian. . . . but that pretend is much more convincingly backed up with a He-Man action figure, who at least looks the part. Likewise, if you want a Pegasus representation, then the My Little Pony is much better suited to the role then Cobra Commander from G.I. Joe. lol

Hence the skill and proficiency wise. Although Dagger did allow a more defined back story. Especially depending on your definition of its representation. If Im an Argonian in Ob, and Im born under the sign of the Shadow, that can relate to my back story, and allow back story RP. Its part of the history of my character. Same with attributes, or proficiency.

I didnt plan any of my characters through their playthroughs. They were always what I envisioned in his head. The only work was translating them to the game.

So this time your character still will be what you envision in his head. Just not have those small and oft times insignificant +10 athletics or -whatever at the start. Instead of making one or two choices at the beginning you get to make a choice every time you get to choose a perk. That sounds like more choices in character building to me. :shrug:

More choices and options to change builds on the fly I guess, my view is expressed in post #169 though. I dont think Perks and a background are mutually exclusive. One defines what you do in the game, the other defines what you were before, or what path your most likely to take. I mean, after one dump build, you usually know all of the mechanics and content your working with anyway, assuming you dont look it up through a guide, or Internet.

I'd like to see all of these 'RPers' play pen and paper RPGs.

"My half-elf sorcerer casts Magic Missile!"
"No it didn't, there was no animation."