I will confess to a deep personal fascination. . . and that said, in future installments I would like to see FAR more information on The Lesser Daedra of Altmer/Man or greater intelligence, their various types, cultures and histories. Not only in Elder V but beyond. I have said before, I would love to see some playable, even if in a Dawn/Merethic era game setting. .. but that request is not the point of this post. This post is about wanting more Daedra visibility. . . and more lore. The evidence is fairly overwhelming that The Lesser Daedra are NOT merely extensions of The Daedric Princes. . . deeds of betrayl of princes, dissaproval of princes actions, discontent etc. all points to beings with a high capacity for individual will and thought. And then there are the histories, and actual daedric writings which make plain that certain Daedra did not always serve their current Princes. If the Daedra are indeed the spilled blood of Padomay, it stands to reason that The Princes are the gouts and large droplets, then the Lesser Daedra are likely the innumerable flecks and miniscule to microscopic blood particles. . . but I digress.

What I want to learn more of is A. who are the various Daedra? Sanguines are of especial interest to me, as is his realm, but also, do we know all the Daedra who serve Meridia, Mephala, Hircine, Molag Baal, Azura and the rest? Are there other, unaffiliated Daedra of intellect and power who roam Oblivion or beyond. And of the cultured races, what are their histories, how have they interacted with one another? What do Dremora think of Aureal and vice versa? Have their been wars and insurrections, succesions and rebellions, treatises and armistices?

I will close with an Imperial Library interview, conducted with Bethesda Developers who channeled, if you will, two of the more learned inhabitants of The Shivering Isles. . . their comments, especially concerning the Mazken, are fascinating. . . and I would know more. Am I alone in this? Well, unlikely, but within the forum?


"One may wish to reflect on the following quotes gathered during an interview of two denizens of the Shivering Isles so that one may to extrapolate their own personal truth for themselves:

[size="3"]Haskill: 'How typical. You mortals love to take a pebble of information and construct entire realms of conjecture upon it. Your lore of those disparate beings that you lump together as "daedra" is based on nothing -- lies and half-truths told by traitors, rebels, miscontents and weaklings who have had the misfortune to become involved with mortals. Or with Mehrunes Dagon. Do not speak his name to me again. The Master of Scum. The pawn of every Prince of true power, the dupe of every schemer in the Nineteen Voids. Do you think you know anything of the politics, factions, feuds, vendettas, wars of Oblivion? Do you think Oblivion such a simple place, that the tale of the loyalties of a great people such as the Mazken could be encompassed in a brief tale?'. . .

Dyus: 'The limited imaginations of Mundus' inhabitants are very amusing. There are as many types of servants as stars in the sky. Daedra, as you call them, are but one of the more useful. The Knights of Order are yet another. My Lord Jyggalag is partial to their lack of creativity and independence.'"[/size]

I clearly see that you know alot more then me about the daedra but shouldn't they just be a mistery.. as Dyus sais... That people from Mundus have just limited imagination.. So that their social systems would never be really clear..

Between the odd font and digression I can't make out what your question is.

http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/ should have most of the available info.

The font is normal standard setting. The size is enhanced on the quote, and the colour is different. BUt TRUST me, it isn't in The Guide to Daedra. Alot of it hasn't been touched on by the developers themselves. Sanguine's realm and Daedra. . . we know virtually nothing of them. And the mystery matter has its place. . . but lets face it, the moment the Dreamora wrote a text, and you were allowed to take leadership over Aureal and Mazken, the notion of having them remain forever entirely obscured sailed. They SHOULD remain obscure and mysterious to the average, non arch wizard Nord and Bosmer. . . but as a gamer, a reader, one who takes an interest in fiction and lore. . . let me know more. Ditto for those who share my interest. I will pose just a few of the questions again Prowler (the latter part of the original post was a quote, not a query, by the way) and if you can answer it reliably all the better. . .What are the various sub-species of Daedra, especially the intelligent ones? What are their histories? How do they interact, not only amongst themselves, but in their encounters with other types of Lesser Daedra. Again, for example, how do Aureal relate to Dremora on occassions when they may interact? Have there been wars, have their been armistices? Have their been rebellions of servants against Princes on a larger scale than the occasional traitor?

"Do you think you know anything of the politics, factions, feuds, vendettas, wars of Oblivion? Do you think Oblivion such a simple place, that the tale of the loyalties of a great people such as the Mazken could be encompassed in a brief tale?'"

The above quoted line from Dyus speaks volumes. . . it is a world of inquiry and pondering on its own? If the tale of the loyalties and history of The Mazken, and of other "great people", Dremora, Aureal, Xivalai and other, is too great and too complex for a singular account to encompass. . . surely it is a tale worth the hearing and the telling.

I too have always been intruged by the Dremora and favored them the most favorite of enemies since Daggerfall.

I do like the fasination that they are shrouded in mystery and lore, but like you I wouldn't mind learning more.

It would be neat if Beth made a spinoff game that involved just that... a struggle between the Daedra over servants or other things and you are a lone trusted Daedra of a Daedric Prince involved in the struggle and the story revolves around a conflict within the Daedric realm.

That would be a neat way to learn more about them.

Continue your quest for more information, Ainur! :goodjob:

Well, there is not too much lore about them. Sure. I think that some bit more would not be that bad. On the other hand, the TES have lots of mysteries. Things that are unknown and probably unknowable. Only hinted to. I like this about the world. Even in real world there are not answers to all questions. I guess that there can be some books on this. It would be nice if you could speak with daedra cultists about their cult and the daedra they worship, but I would still like to keep some of the mysteries intact. There is a lot of lore missing about clearer things in the game. Like an expansion on the lore of the guilds and such. It makes sense that those things would be known and yet they are not. There are many interresting people in the game who should have a lot of lore behind them, but they do not. I think I woul very much like to see the "mundus lore" expanded and then move to the "daedric lore".

Well, between all the games lore is progressing. I can understand you want it to go faster but c'est la vie. I wouldn't expect much from the current staffing, Knights of the Nine aside, they're not very good at background lore.



I'm thinking, them B-Boys don't know it either, don't dare to speculate in character, but still try to be clever.



Sorry, got no answers for you. I doubt they exist. Battlespire should be excellent material for you to extrapolate off.

If you accept the view of Dremora, they're the only intelligent type of Daedra in Mehrunes Dagon's service. The others are just animals. But the Xivilai are also intelligent, and more independent than the Dremora, with no real social structure and the ability to rebel if they aren't given the respect they feel they deserve. I think the Dremora just consider them less honourable, rather than more stupid, as to them that would translate as stupidity. The Mazken and Aureal are also clearly intelligent, and the winged twilights perhaps, and also frost atronachs.



They don't really have them. The Mazken and Aureal have a sense of it, but the others don't seem to care.



We don't really know, but we know that different kinds of Daedra can have relationships, and we know that there is a rank system amongst the Dremora. The intelligent kinds of Daedra see the less intelligent kinds of Daedra as Dunmer and Imperials see Khajiit and Argonians, as little more than beasts.

As for Daedra Lords, the books in Shivering Isles tell us about their competitions between each other, and Sheogorath himself says that Malacath isn't popular at parties (although that is his sphere). Judging from the comments of someone, I think it was Haskill in his interview, not many Daedra like Mehrunes Dagon, either. The Daedra Lords do, however, have allies and enemies. Azura is an enemy of Nocturnal, Molag Bal is an enemy of Boethiah, Mephala is allied to Malacath, and Vaermina is allied with Sanguine.



I doubt the Aureal will get along with Dremora. It is a female-dominated society not as obsessed with personal honour meeting a male-dominated society that is based around clans. And there have been wars - the war between Sheogorath and Jyggalag, for example. And if Daedra have enemies, then they must have armed forces (which we know they do - they have Daedric weaponry and many Daedra have martial societies). And Haskill says a lot about the feuds and treaties of the realms of Oblivion, even if he doesn't actually describe them.

But the lesser Daedra can usually serve anyone. If they're intelligent, they usually make a conscious decision. If not, they don't need to. The exceptions are the Dremora and perhaps the Mazken and Aureal, but even they will change their leaders (Mazken have done, I think, unless I'm thinking of Winged Twilights) if they want to.

Good answers, or at least good theorums. . . but really they only serve to highlight the questions and the fact that we have, at best, very minimal answers to them. The Imperial Libraries Daedra Guide is a help . . .but not much. . . it hasn't even corrected the now provedly false notion that all Aureal and Mazkan are Female. In point of fact. . . they are not. But yes, Aureal and Dremora are both highly intelligent, highly arrogant, very powerful in magic and arms. . . and vastly different in social structure. Which is exactly part of the reaso WHY I am so curious about how they interact in rare instances when they interact. I would love to hear the interaction between them, even if were a pair Nirn bound by conjourers and forbidden to directly attack one another. The banter alone, however hostile, could provide countless insights. And there is no need to speak to cultists about Daedra. . . with a little arcane assitance, the skilled mage can speak to them himself. . . I understand much of the lore does not exist yet. .. but Sanguine has a realm and Daedra. . . the designers just need to focus their minds and figure out what said Daedra are like. .. or else hire some of us. . . lol. . . we are full of ideas in these forums.

P.S. to whomever moved this thread. . . It was as much a hope for future games to include more lore on Daedra as an expectation for debate about existing lore. Most of the questions do not have answers yet. . . thus I thought it best suited to the General Discussion forum, which can include both lore questions and what we would like to see from the developers. . . is there any way you could move it back>?

Many of the quotes in that interview paint the most un-fascinating picture of Oblivion possible. In absence of any new information, we get the "they are immortal spirits too powerful and complex for you mortals to comprehend, ancient beings wholly beyond your ken. Do not try to understand" spiel.

Okay then. I guess I'll ignore you and go back to my subsistence farming.

That isn't really the picture it paints, Paws. . . that is a narrow reading of it. It actually paints a much more fascinating picture of Oblivion than we have often gotten. What is says is not, "you can never get it so buzz off" it says, " you don't know what you are speaking about, you have asked all the wrong questions, mostly of the wrong people, and you have assumed alot based on very little>" WHich means that it is quite possible to get more information and better information. . . especially if the Devs add it in. . .

WHICH IS WHY (this isn't directed to you paws) THIS IS NOT A STRICTLY EXISTING LORE QUESTION, AND IS AT LEAST ONE HALF REQUEST FOR INFORMATION THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN GIVEN FROM THE DEVELOPERS, AND THUS THIS THREAD IS BETTER FITTED WHERE IT WAS. . . IN GENREAL TES. . . not in the existing lore debate forum. Could you please put it back, or explain why not.

You can use the report button. It's like the hotel service intercom, or that funny radio thing in the hospital.

Lol. Good looking out. Thanks.

the devs arent going to show up in TES General and magically give you more into about the Daedra. In fact, if you want lore from devs this forum is your best bet - and even then its a very slim chance.

The nature of the request is that there be MORE Daedra lore and information available in Future Game installments, not that Devs pop up and explain all on this forum or anyother. And because it addresses, in part, future installments, and is not really asking a question about existing lore, but complaining about the lack of lore surrounding this topic and seeking remedy, this lore forum is not as well suited to it as the General forum. E.G. I am not asking, "does anyone think the Golden Saints might rebel against Sheogorath?" or, "Does anyone here know when Mephala created The Coloured Rooms?" I am saying, "we have limited lore concerning the Daedra, and as they are a dynamic group, and the existing lore hints at fascinating possibilities, it would be excellent if the Developers gave us more lore and information on and interaction with them in future game installments." Thus, it is not strictly an existing lore debate or set of queries, and is not best placed in the lore forum.

They are intriguing in their context, but mortals are so much kewler. Even the Princes think so, and lesser Daedra, their subjects, are rather free-acting fellows, so what does that make man? We mortals are human, those gods are abstractions and platitudes of pettiness.

But is not that abstraction what causes them to be so intriguing a locked chest is so much more exciting than an open one.

Anyway you are so right Ainur, especially about the thing where you said we should have a game played as a loyal daedra under a princes service, i for one agree on everything you posted about, it's just too mysterious and this is definitely not something that can be read in a book or scroll, such struggles, and tales have to be experienced to be fully understood.

Say why don't we have a kind of petition, in our signatures i mean, i've seen people do it all the time, we list the names, of all the people who want it and add it to our signature. :lightbulb:

I am with thee! Daedra are very intresting entities (SP?) and would like to know more.

I also find it odd that other destructive princes, not just Mehrues Dagon, are not trying to take over Cyrodiil. I mean, the Nine Divine are worshiped by the greater population, yet the shrines of the Daedra are casted into the wilderness. You would think that would emit thier rage, and they would destroy the temples of the Nine.

Because Dagon's sphere is Destruction itself. No other princes have a sphere anything close to that.

I miss Ogrims, they really rounded out the daedra list. Hunger's were sweet too, and I prefer the skinnier daedroths of Morrowind, the new ones remind me of the Alits. Spider daedra would have been sweet if they did more than just poop out little spiders, like actually shooting you with a web, or crawling on walls and ceilings. Super creepy. Xivalis just seemed like big, stupid dremora, they have no real niche. They should be faster, sling more spells, and be strong on attack but weak on defense. Like a shamanistic daedra.

Yes, the abstraction. Of course, the fascination is a two way street. Mortals behave as obsesively about their Princes as the Princes do with their mortals. We are an abstraction to them, after all. New meaning to "every man a King", perhaps...



they don't work. never have, never will.

Is there any visual difference between the different ranks of Dremora?

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsobs/ makes the Lesser Daedra so very, very interesting...

:hugs:

I am sooo touched!! Thank you. lol. Silliness aside though, I would sign onto your petition happily, for what its worth. Probably very little, but hey, what counts is the effort. Now, Owased will probably sabotage the attempt, but, worth a go. lol.