Don't use/like the AMR so doesn't really matter to me personally ... but couldn't you just make it heavier (30-40 instead of 20), make the ammo a lot more expensive (and a bit heavier, for HC), require 10STR instead of 8, increase sway movement through the scope or something, stuff like that? I see nothing wrong with making it harder to use/carry etc. in return for that high payout.

...as far as enemies and one shot kills...well...I still have conflicting feelings about that. Changing weapon damage to be more realistic is not going to make a lot of difference to difficulty....unless, of course, doing so means enemies have a very high chance of one-shotting YOU all the time as well. Thus the idea that NPC's equipped with a new improved AMR would actually be appealing to me, so I'd say leave that in. If I can have that weapon, so should they.

I guess I'm a bit unclear what making gun dmg more realistic has for a goal...purely for realism, or to make the game more challenging? I think those are two different things...and very difficult to try to combine in this particular video game. Especially from a sniper weapon point of view. Hope I'm making sense... :teehee:

Late Edit: On further thought I should clarify: if npc's don't have better AI tactics or chance to hit or better default gear overall etc. etc. then difficulty is not raised too much with most npc's since they typically (in the vanilla game) don't come in large hordes, and frankly, far as I can tell, most of the time they miss a whole lot unless you stand still as a target. And if you're a sniper, more realistic head-shotting/dmg only makes it easier. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with wanting that dmg. realism...but I don't see it as being more difficult, by itself.

Was selling yet another combat helmet to a merchant (fugly things...) and had a thought: Helmets with DT should give some protection against headshots. How much protection and how this might be done I have no idea.

Also:

After struggling to consider this for a while, this is all I can come up with:

-Deathclaws - no one shots, even crit head shots. But no more than 2 or 3 needed. Possible rationale: they have extremely hard, bone-thick heads housing very tiny brains. haha
-Human opponents - one shots (to the head at least) always possible (no sneak crit required) and usually highly probable, unless wearing a helmet...
-scorpions - eh...for giants I'd say should at least require a sneak critical from a higer dmg. weapon.
-Everything else...one shots possible but not necessarily guaranteed. Fleshier creatures should have a higher chance of one, flying creatures a lesser chance (to simulate difficulty hitting fast-moving targets).

Update: Scapped my weapon spread formula. Started from sratch again. Got a new one working *much* better. Wasn't thinking right with the old one, from a mathematical standpoint. Glad I noticed the mistake. Base accuray now modeled, right where I wanted, now gotta work on minor adjustments for extraneous factors. Struggling with why unique weapons should have lower spread than the regular version when there is no appearent reason, ie: no longer barrel, no recoil compensator, etc....

As for my overarching aim, it is threefold (I always find a way to list stuff in 3s I guess):

A) I wish to make the weapons behave much more like the do in real life. Accuracy, ROF, weight, ammo, how each weapon compares to others, etc....I shoot alot of this stuff IRL and it irks me that some of it is just not right.

2) I would like to raise the guns damage slightly overall, for all users. Not by leaps and bounds, but to a level where I feel reasonable effect is occuring on a target based off of what the weapon really does. I hope to balance this correctly and my aim is to not make every shot an insta-kill. Hopefully, dependent on the AI of course, this should mean that enemies can kill you easier also. Especially the effects some ammo will get with regard to DT. The Currier being an unstoppable armored tank days are numbered. There are a lot of guns in this game that should punch through some of the armors easier than they do now, and that's usually one of the biggest advantages the PC has, what with the naked DT of 10 after perks/implants.

Other) I would dearly love to completely get rid of the sneak critical damage multiplier. Insta-crit on one I can live with, but the additional damage on top is too much. It's the one thing only you, the PC, can do (sneak crits), and it unbalances the game. If I can't find the script to edit, I will just have to lower crit damage overall to get the same effect.

-Gunny out.

Matchgrade machining/galvanization, or heavier/denser barrel?

And yes, I feel the damage between Guns in NV isn't "right" compare to each other.

Can understand that.
I'd like a bit more realism and tougher/more challenging combat, but I also don't want the game to be Call of Duty, either. I guess that's where I get a little confused in threads like these.


I would not miss the sneak critical at at all. I've become a little frustrated lately because I do like to crouch - since the game mechanics says this helps steady my aim, especially at low skill lvls, and thus increase the chance I'll hit the target, but it too often gives me an advantage I don't want.

Call of Duty is not realistic at all, even for a FPS.......

The sneak crit damage is set in a Game Setting, not a script. In the Geck click on Gameplay(on the top bar) then Settings. It is something like fCombatSneakAttackMult and is set to 100. To test out and make sure, set it to 500 and see if you can one shot kill a Deathclaw with a Varmant Rifle.

::slapface:: How did I miss that, all the times I've sifted through the Settings? Thanks, I'm going to change that to 0 right now.

There are more than one game settings that list "sneak critical multiplier". There is one set at "2", which is probably the one, which is a 2x modifier to damage, which would be the correct one to change. To eliminate the extra damage, set it at "1". Setting it to 0 would mean no damage at all, I think.

-Gunny trying to learn how to use the geck.

Opps, your right that is not the right setting. It is fCombatDamageSneakMult. You want to set that to 1. I knew it was in a setting though.

Hm. I don't think it works like that that, thought 0 means nothing added/altered from base, since it works that way for some other settings (like run speed), but I'd have to test to find out. Could be.

^^Let us know how the test works out! I have been using it set at 1 for a while and sneak attacks seem much weaker.

If you really want to rebalance sneak sniping, then you should fool around with detection range. Right now there is a huge range where the player can see the target on the screen and the monster can not see the player. Even if you are not sneaking. I think the setting fPerceptionMult impacts it, but I am not sure. Will have to test that out, since as it is now, sneak sniping from a distance is basically shooting fish in a barrel.

I did some very quick & dirty initial tests and it does appear that at least for that setting, 0=no damage at all. I'd hit, the game would say 'sneak critical' but no damage/hit is recorded.

However, you don't have to use whole numbers....you can use the decimals. So using a Varmint rifle and some coyotes I tried setting it to 0.1 ... which created hit dmg. of about 4. Then I tried 0.5, and that turned the "Sneak Crit" to about 14. So perhaps 0.45 would bring it about as close to 'normal gun damage' as possible. Also, I think you can still get regular crit. damage while crouched/hidden, so sometimes the sneak hit crit will still result in a larger number, but if you don't get the normal crit, 'sneak crit' is nerfed by that setting so no appreciable sneak-specific bonus is applied. So it would work.

Edit:Drat forgot I used a 10mm too...nvm about those vs. numbers, may be mixing them up (edits them out). I'll have to re-test for specifics, but still think .4 or so would be the approx. spot for creating base dmg sneaks.

So from that...I guess you can have both sneak+reg crit stacked on top of each other? Didn't realize that...but would explain some huge dmg. numbers I see at times...

I think the way it works is that the sneak damage multiplier works after all other damage formulas are computed. And since it is a multilier, to get the same damage as before the multiplier, you would multiply by 1. Setting it at 2 would mean double the damage, which the game currently does, and setting it less than one would mean you'd get less than 100% of your regular crit damage. I'd set it at 1, thereby eliminating the sneak effect, and adjust to your taste afterwords.
Edit: don't forget you get your crit damage, as a sneak crit is automatic, then you get you headshot multiplier of .75 (or 75%). Without the sneak crit multiplier, a weapon doing 20 base damage should then do only 70 damage (20 base + 20 crit times 1.75 for the headshot.)
-Gunny only slightly less confused.

Based on those things, what you say makes sense and in that case too much lower than 1 might be more disadvantage than I'd desire. There sure are a lot of separate (yet related) things that combined make up the damage mechanics....even using the debug console I'm having a hard time understanding the reason/concept of the numbers I see fly by. That is, if you do no extra damage, the number is consistent for same enemy but soon as you do extra damage it doesn't always feel consistent. I guess that's because of the body part multipliers/where you hit on top of...

*starts getting a headache*

...argh. Since I don't have much clue on the behind the scenes math being used in most of these cases, I'll just go with your thinking. I guess I'd have to run some more tests to better understand what the default game does (which I don't like) during crits/hits and then, as you say, adjust to my tastes.

I thought I'd bring this back up and post a final anolysis of where I'm at with using real life ballistics metrics to model the base damage and accurary of the Guns in the game. There are a few disclaimers first:

1. I have decided against releasing this as a mod. You are more than welcome to use these figures as you wish, or not. Whatever floats your boat.
2. I did this for my own personal gripes/satisfaction. If you have questions about how I did it, or why this is such and such, I'm more than happy to discuss. If you want to pick apart what I have done, do your own (primary reason for "see number 1").
3. There had to be a fair amount of subjectivity in this. Hard real life numbers aren't that hard to come by, but translating that into the existing framework of an already completed game causes no small amount of challenges. (in essence, see number 2)
4. My greatest attemps were to create a heirarchy of damage and accuracy whereby the weapons perform closer to how they do IRL. It is mostly comparative in nature, ie: how much more/less accurate is gun x over gun y. I only made very small changes to the base ranges of weapons' spread and damage, as I found I had to stick pretty closely to the established ranges, or things got whacky pretty quick. (with the notable exception of the AMR.) I did give a very small bump to the lowest teir of weapons.
5. To counter this, I also removed the sneak critcal damage multiplier.

Here are what are probably my final numbers:

Weapon_______________DAM_____Spread
.357 revolver____________22_______.785
.44 Magnum____________33_______.767
10mm pistol____________26_______.767
10mm smg_____________28_______2.313
12.7mm pistol___________57_______.738
12.7mm smg____________61_______2.222
9mm pistol______________16_______.774
9mm smg_______________15_______2.337
Abilene kid BB gun_______4________.750
All American____________25________.025
Anti-Materiel rifle________355________.032
Assualt carbine__________15________1.360
Automatic rifle___________56________1.428
BB gun_________________4_________1.000
Big Boomer_____________24x8.6_____4.752
Brush gun______________68_________.115
Caravan shotgun_________18x5.6_____2.875
Cowboy repeater_________33_________.164
CZ57 avenger____________19_________1.185
Dinner bell_______________12x11.4____1.180
Gobi campaign sniper______62________.018
Hunting revolver___________59________.545
Hunting rifle______________56_________.038
Hunting shotgun__________12x10.4_____1.767
La longue carabine________38__________.071
Lever-action shotgun_______18x5.2______4.110
Light machinegun_________24__________1.565
Lucky___________________27__________.589
Maria___________________18___________.581
Marksman carbine________23___________.033
Minigun_________________17___________2.370
Mysterious magnum_______36__________.575
Police pistol______________18__________.787
Ranger sequoia___________65__________.409
Ratslayer________________27__________.021
Riot shotgun_____________12x9.3_______4.242
Sawed-off shotgun________24x7.9_______7.124
Service rifle______________24___________.055
Silenced .22 pistol________8____________.794
Silenced .22 smg_________11___________2.396
Single shotgun___________18x6_________1.060
Sniper rifle_______________58___________.019
Sturdy caravan shotgun____18x5.6________2.875
That gun________________17____________.124
This machine____________62____________.030
Trail carbine_____________49____________.162
Vance's 9mm smg________16____________1.560
Varmint rifle______________24____________.043
Weathered 10mm pistol____28.9___________.575


Notes: Critical damage was changed on all weapons to 100% of base damage (single projectile, ie: single shotgun crit dam of 6) Critical hit chance multiplier was left alone. All uniques have both a modest accuracy and damage bonus.

Ammo effects

Ammo__________modifiers
5mm & 5.56mm __All ammos (including AP) additional -8DT
.308____________All ammos (including AP) additional -9DT,
.44 & .45-70SWC_Removed -6DT
.50MG__________All ammos (including AP) additional -15DT
Shotgun slug_____All slugs spread modifier set to x.165, 20ga slug damage modifier x .6

Notes: All hand loaded ammo gets the x3 condition penalty.

That's it in a rather large nutshell folks. I'm getting ready to go up north and shoot for a week to time some effective rates of fire and reload times. When I get back I'll work on adjusting the ROF and reloading times as best I can.

Fun fact: Primm Slim has the most HP in this game and by a gap of 1000+!

Seriously? I never thought to check him. Holy hit points, Batman!

-Gunny out.

Thank you for those Gunny, I know it took you alot of work.

So for all the effort you put in cheers and happy shooting.

Thank you. The parts for my Browning came in today, so it's off to the garage to get her ready for the Shootapalooza. We're gonna do that trick where you throw as many target clays as you can up in the air by hand and see how many you can shoot down in one throw. I heard the world record is like 17 or something. Who the hell has a shotgun that holds 17 rounds?

-Gunny headed to check gun oil and beer stocks. It's gonna be a long night. Maybe a 2 cigar one. (for those who aren't cigar savvy, the brazillians I smoke are a 60 ring gauge by 6" long. That's 60/64 or 15/16" thick. They last me at least 2 hours. I like my cigars like my women: Big, Dark and Spicy. That reminds me, I met this brazillian dancer last night named Binky. Swear to god. Binky.)

You're living the life Gunny, seemingly a Binky is an acrobatic twisting jump made by rabbits.
Or in older scots a bink is a plate rack, shelf, or wasps nest.

I gave your numbers a quick run.. they feel right in game imo.
The damage reduction on a 20 guage slug also seems to fit, otherwise it outshines every rifle.
Once the guns are modded I'll see how EW's can be changed or if they need to be.
So far on normal level 22+ with no DT I've got about a 40%+ chance of dying one on one with a fiend, against three around 80%+.

Well, the Browning's back together, all new springs and ran some bore cleaner through 'er. Now I gotta finish the stock repair at the shop tomorrow. Drill and pin the repair with acraglass. I think she'll be ready. I am pleased.

The damage reduction on the slug was a late addition. I almost forgot to put it in. 20ga, because of the smaller bore size and slug weight has a lot less energy than a slug from a 12ga. The damage for the 12ga slug came out almost exactly the same a a load of 12 00 buck, so no modifier for it. The accuracy really svcks though. TBH, though, I have a helluva time hitting crappola with slugs past about 50 feet in real life. Maybe I just svck at shooting slugs. I'm taking another shotgun up this year, a Remingtion 870. Maybe I'll have better luck with the slugs in it. If I think the spread modifier needs to be adjusted I'll let you know.

BTW, what weapons did the fiends have? And what were you packing?

Did you know Brazillian Binkys are blond and real tall? And have the cutest accents? I so loooooove living in South Florida.

-Gunny out.

Stop it you're killing me, the closest I get to a tall brazillian in a hot climate, is a geordie lass at a fish and chip shop in winter.

Standard gear but upgraded ammo atm, laser rcws, plasma guns, laser rifles, hunting rifles, lever action rifles and shotguns.
With random ammo clips ( 15 - 30 rounds each ) from a leveled list with Max Charge, Over Charge, Normal and Bulk included in it.
Gun clips made up from all the ammo types, AP, HP, surplus, Slug, Magnum.. etc.

The PC, a caravan shotgun, 9mm for the first run, surgeon and switched between ammo types for the first run..
I'll console in the rest after I get the id's from the wiki.
Lucky shots at range dealt good damage with a caravan, up close it was a killer.
The fiends themselves are now leveled to 0.66 of the characters level.. so they're around level 14 atm with my test character.
Their level cap is set to 16 - 18 for basic fiends, bosses I've got at a one for one scale.

I'll start a new character to test out gun damage on low level npc's, for a more balanced look.
However as it stands it feels good.
Cheers and thanks again Gunny.

OK I tried out the modded assault carabine on the modded fiends, I'll post the videos later..
Still have to add the bonus to AP on normal rounds, also I may have to up the basic damage or lower the spread on them for my mod.
Take a look and see if you think it cuts the mustard..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUCKcr2NewI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-jmb7GF_9E

Added the bonus stats to the ammo.. increased base damage by 2, knocked down spread by .1..
I'll post the vid when uploaded, but it works.
Since I used regular leveling of npc's, and other tweaks I had to do this.
On the base game, I say your stats are perfect.

Didn't look too bad. Two things to ponder:

A) The -8DT on the ammo will completely negate their armor (what is that at? 4?) So you'll be doing a full 15 dam per hit rather than 11. That's over 25% increase, and at low damages it really means alot, so you might not need to up the damage any.

2) Our playstyles are a little different. I always iron sight unless it's a weapon that has none. And stabilize my firing position (crouch) when I can. That's just the training coming through from real life, I guess. Hip firing really is incredibly hard to hit crap, but I understand that many players prefer 3rd person non-ironsights, so you may have to find a way to make it work better without the spread reduction from sighting in on your target. I think getting too close to a spread of 1.0 with automatics will get you outside of the range where the poor spread number is used to replicate the (nonexistant) effects of muzzle rise. I tested the automatics in 3-5 round bursts and the hit ratio seemed where it should be, 2-3 hits per burst, out to ranges or 100', offhand (standing) using sights. Past that it was hard to hit consistantly, but I must admit I didn't test in 3d person non-ironsights.

Other) I'm gonna run through all the shotgun loads again tonight if I get a chance, as I didn't test the 12 pellet 12ga buckshot yet. As long as it isn't killing stuff at 100 yards with one shot, I think it'll be OK.

-Gunny out. (PS I finished the stock, and gave it to my finish guy for the varnish. Came out better than I hoped. The Browning is looking like a shooter again)