Oh, is *that* why? Freaking inbreds. There was this one part I just couldn't pass (in the house, after you fell through the floor), forcing me to go into a Stealth Boy rage.

I had easier times with Super Mutant Overlords.

Actually I break out my Linchon and PLK mods quickly scythed down by the Grim Reaper......this is just an example of bad balancing for bad game mechanics, really.

IMO Stealth is hard, harder than stealth orientate action games (MGS...not AC), if not broken, thanks to erratic AI (especially indoor).

As for stealth crit being too much, I agree; it should have be no more than 150% (if not dictated by Sneak), and improve by perk(s).

Very true bc there is nothing that can even come close to killing me while im at a 32 not even king or queen deathclaws.

and if you fight to get the best weapon you should be able to show it off but not every kill shoule me a one shot bc then the game just becomes boring.

I would reduce the multiplier and the bonus damage while not jacking the base damage upwards. If that seems a bit harsh, it's because it's supposed to be. The point of the reductions is to rein in the excesses promulgated by the sneak-sniping tactic, so I see no reason to 'compensate' for it in any way. NOTE: it's not the tactic itself I oppose, it's the disproportionate efficacy thereof. One weapon that might use a slight damage (and HP) increase is the Sniper Rifle, which really should be at around 50 instead of 42, however at the same time I would slap a +Wear penalty on .308JSP hand-load rounds as their +DAM comes at no cost.

While I have not tried to do so, I believe the multipliers can be altered. I know the 'regular' critical damage bonus can be altered in the individual weapon entries, and since the 'sneak' multiplier is applied after the 'regular' addition, lowering the latter would directly nerf the former as well as itself. Whether or not it is desirable to nerf non-sneak critical hits is another matter, and I don't see much reason to do so in most cases. That said, if the multipliers cannot be altered our options are rather limited.

One indirect 'nerf' I would implement would be a severe reduction in available scope mods, since those allow almost anything to be used to snipe with even though that may not be the primary use for that weapon. As to spread increases, I could see doing that to some pistols and a few auto- or semiauto- rifles since most of same aren't supposed to be accurate worth a damn past about 200yd or so.

Ok, vital organs should be able to be targeted to score a critical strike. Take luck right out of it.

Sneak attacks should do the same DAM as a crit - and is already easier to hit the target as they are casually walking around instead of sprinting At you like a hungry zombie with a lead pipe.

Raising the DAM across the board is the way to go - it makes it more dangerous for everyone, including the PC.

That sir, is a brilliant point and the very reason I will remove "1. Change sneak attacks from damage multiplier to spread reducer" from my christmas list. Thank you.

Well, I guess you could target vitals in VATS, but I don't see how they could easily model that outside of VATS, without it being a random dice roll like in the old PnP days. Nice though, make your own crits, but I don't think i'll ever happen

I'm with you on the sneak attack has 0 extra damage part. You just get an instant crit. That is powerful enough and plenty reward for a sneak/sniper.

Your last point is the thing i think a few have missed. I don't want to just make MY weapons' base damage more powerful, I want my enemies' weapons to be more powerful too, just like you said. That ought to make things a little more balanced. Reduce what they can't do, ie: sneak attacks, and increase what everyone can do. Kill or be killed.

-Gunny out.

Would also take much of the usefulness out of Luck.


Agreed. Getting an autocrit is pretty powerful already, especially if you can aim it at the head.

At normal difficulty damage is a bit on the low side (for both me and the enemies), but alright. At very hard it's just stupid for the enemies, who would take way too many bullets to kill. Headshot damage in general could be higher, but not to the point where almost every headshot is lethal: It's still supposed to be balanced, and an RPG.

I never understood why a sneak crit did more damage.

Whether your target is unaware of the bullet entering his body, or aware it still hurts the same.


I do understand crits though, its hitting a vital organ so it puts your target out of suitable shape to continue the battle. I do believe though that whther you were critically hit, or not you would still be on the ground if you had been shot. At least I think I would probably be on the ground.


I think its also way to easy to hit in the game. Enemies dont take cover adn I dont need to either. They just stand there as I run up to them and blast them witht the AMR, and I have to many hitpoints to care whether they shoot em cause tehn I just spam stimpacks If i need to.
So I think attacks need to be more lethal, but cover should be used more often. The Mojave is barren, so there is not much natural cover but the LEgion should not just allow me to walk inot teh raid camp and kill them. They should have fortifications, use cover adn nto allow you to waltz in on them while they are all sleeping. Sneaking shoudl also be harder. Im not a trained ninja or anything, but I find it hard to sneak up on people or have them sneak up on me.

Maybe they should remove stimpacks altogether and add a faster healing rate. That is, you'd regen health at a fair clip (not super fast, but not game-hours either) over time but only if you weren't in combat/near enemies. I learned a long time ago that being able to hotkey heal in combat (even slow healing) makes most battles feel non-terrifying. If your health during a battle is your health, it's a lot more intense. But that style probably isn't fallout-y or rpg-y or something and wouldn't fly. What do I know.

I also don't really understand the sneak-critical in terms of logic....but I do understand it conceptually in terms of wanting to give a sneak crit some kind of extra reward for getting one. Extra damage for sneak hits is kind of a rpg staple, in one form or another...without it, a thief in many games would be a rather pointless chr in combat. If you wanted to change the sneak-crit in FO, perhaps what should be done is make it so they can be done only if you have a certain combo of skills all at higher levels...not just because you're crouched and have 20 in Sneak.

A very good point there, I think you're on to something.
I understand in fantasy RPG's ( mostly ) it was due to the idea that a skilled sneak had knowledge of dirty tricks.
That and may have been a form of assassin, so in close combat and given a suprise attack could in theory..
1. injure any one of the vital organs.
2. Slash an artery.
3. Cut the wind pipe.
4. Strangle or gorotte.
5. Just Injure a sensetive spot, such as the tendons or joints.

However it relied on certain weapons, mostly small blades.
Ranged was excluded unless pigeoned in with a sub class and specialty, that imposed weak points and restrictions.
When fantasy CRPG's became established they made ranged attacks deal lesser amounts of critical damage as standard.

In FO you allways had a chance to score a critical.
However maybe if they went back to making H2H sneak crits deal the standard bonus damage ( after all it's balanced by having to close the foe ).
Then had less chance or damage for ranged attacks, unless having a specialistion perk with heavy requirements.
As hitting the exact spot on a living target requires a fair bit of skill and expertise.

I suspect more people got it than you might think; the opposition to that part is based on the fact that increasing the enemies' output will not help until/unless they learn how to properly apply it. Given the current 'tactically declined' state of the AI, all increasing base weapon damage will really do is make it even easier for the player to wipe out hordes of opponents.

I truly wish it were otherwise, as I would love to see an ambush actually act like an ambush, or an assault on your position employ flanking and cover fire, but sadly, the current extent of AI tactics can be summed up in one word: BANZAI!

It would be nice if they also took your current equipment into account when deciding if they want to fight you in the first place; a bunch of Fiends should be thinking twice about attacking my character in Tesla Armor wielding a YCS/186, because I'm gonna wipe the pavement with 'em (yeah, I know, they're basically crackheads, but still).

LOL. The best ambush the game threw at me was when I was "marked for death" by legion assassins.
How did I know I was marked for death? They told me so - right before I blew their heads off with a .357

First off, I would like to thank ya'll for the input. It was helpful to hear what other's perspectives on this stuff was. I do intend to take everyone's comments under consideration. The reason why I asked this question, if you haven't figured it out yet, is that I'm seriously considering changing the damage of all weapons so that they more accurately reflect (my opinion) real life performance. Using a blend of real life ballistics performance criteria I have come up with very preliminary damage stats for all rifles/pistols/SMGs. Please note, damage is not the only thing I would wish to change. I know weapon spread numbers would have to be adjusted, as well as some other stats, like reload speed, rate of fire, etc... I also would like to remove the additional 100% damage multiplier from the sneak critical, but don't know if that is a variable you can change. If not, the only method I can think of to reduce the overpowering effects of a sneak critical headshot is to lower the critical damage stat for each weapon. I'm open to suggestion on that topic.

Without further ado, here are my current working numbers for base damamge (*noted where unchanged):

Pistols_______________DAM
Silenced .22 Pistol______9*
9mm Pistol____________16*
That Gun______________18*
Police Pistol___________19
.357 Magnum Revolver___21
10mm Pistol___________26
.44 Magnum Revolver____31
Hunting Revolver________46
12.7mm Pistol__________55

Submachineguns________DAM
Silenced .22 SMG_______10*
9mm SMG_____________14
10mm SMG____________22
12.7mm SMG__________50

Rifles/MGs_____________DAM
BB Gun________________4*
Assault Carbine_________18
Minigun________________20
Marksman Carbine_______22
Service Rifle____________25
Light Machinegun________24
Varmint Rifle____________26
Cowboy Repeater________32*
Trail Carbine____________45*
Automatic Rifle__________50
Hunting Rifle____________56
Sniper Rifle_____________60
This Machine___________65*
Brush Gun_____________70
Anti-materiel Rifle_______148

As I said, these are preliminary working numbers. Now I gotta DL the geck, plug them in and get a feel for how the guns work. I'm sure there will be many who completely disagree with me, so all I can say is that these are my opinions. If yours differ, fine. I'm not asking you to change your game. I just wanna change mine.

-Gunny out.

Looks pretty good, but -
wouldn't the longer barrel on an SMG give it 1-2 more DAM than its pistol counterpart,
to account for more complete power burn and the additional velocity/ft lbs of energy generated by it [the longer powder burn]?

Yes, and it does on the .22 which is obviously longer. I looked at the barrel lengths and I'm not really sure that the barrels on the 9, 10 and 12.7mm are longer than the pistols and in some cases seem shorter. I will be looking at this closer as I plan on comparing barrel lengths better if I can. If there's any fancy way someone can compare the barrel lengths in real units, please let me know.

-gunny out

Well, you got the M3 and BHP for 9mm; 12.7mm Pistol should be somewhat like an Desert Eagle (not really sure about other pistol with .50AE) and SMG should be like a P90 (with the top load clip etc); 10mm Pistol should be some sort of heavy frame Colt and the SMG looks like a Scorpion.

A) I physically looked at the weapons in question and compared the barrel length, as close as I could figure, judging by the magazine feed/ejection port and realized that I was correct on the 9mm weapons. The pistol clearly has a slightly longer barrel than the SMG. The 10mm looks like the SMG is slightly longer and the 12.7mm is clearly longer, so I've adjusted the stats accordlingly. I was just running some DPS numbers on the spreadsheet and the 12.7mm SMG is going to be a beast with the highest DPS of any weapon, and quite frankly rightly so. A .50 cal smg? A beast I say, a beast. I will look at the DPSs more closely later to see if I feel any rof should be altered. I think the lever-actions might have to go a little slower, sorry to say for the lever-action buffs. You just can't accurately fire a lever and regain your sight picture that quickly.

2) I just finished looking at the shotguns. This was a little more difficult, as I had to do some serious hunting to find the base info I needed to do them this way. Conclusion: They're actually pretty close to where they should be. The only real fault I found was all shotties in game fired 7 pellet loads. 00 buck in a 12ga usually has 8 or 9 pellets, and you can't get 00 in a 20ga. 20ga buck usually uses much smaller shot size. I settled on #3 buck, with 20 pellets. But the numbers came pretty close anyways. I might change the shot numbers, as that might factor into criticals. Does anyone know what happens when you roll a crit with buckshot? If you hit, does all the shot get the crit multiplier or does each individual shot get it's own roll?

Other) I'm going to look at the magnum loads and slugs later tonight. I can't wait to see how the slugs come out. The problem with the magnums, as I see it, is that in a magnum load, you usually see more of the same size shot, as well as higher velocities, but I don't know it I can change the number of shot by just the ammo alone. I think I can, since they did it with the slug, so I'll see.

-Gunny out.

Ok if I remember right outside of V.A.T.s in FO3 all projectiles had an independant bonus to critical damage.
I don't think however each projectile had a unique chance of scoring a critical.

A single shotgun with 7 projectiles has one critical roll chance for all 7.
It deals base damage of 7.5, so 52.5 in total.
Its critical damage bonus per projectile is 7, so if all hit that's 49.
So in total on a critical you're looking at 101.5 damage if all hit.
Then if the head gets hit by any, I would presume that bonus is added per projectile that strikes it.

Inside of V.A.T.s in FO3 I think only one projectile has a critical chance.
So you may only get 59.7 on a full strike critical in V.A.T.s using a single shotgun if the same applies.

True... criticals, especially sneak criticals were beastly with a shotgun close range in FO3.
I could kill a behemoth with the terrible in one sneak crit.
But with the DT system in NV they [buckshot criticals] really aren't that powerful anymore, against anything with a good DT - slugs are better.
Even with shotgun surgeon.


But here are my thoughts - why don't we have separate DT for different body parts?
That T51-b isn't going do do you any good when you get shot in the face while wearing a cowboy hat,
but strangely it does - hmmm - shouldn't a couple of buck pellets catch them [the enemy] in a vulnerable spot, i.e. face, neck, etc?

Yes, H2H/melee should deal extra sneak attack damage, it makes more sense. Think of it as stabbing a vital point and then twisting the blade! Plus it is much more balanced, because close range sneaking is hard.

The real issue is how easy it is to get sneak attacks at range. Even with a BASE sneak of 15 I can still long distance snipe. There is a big distance range where the AI has no chance to detect you, even if you are not sneaking. So you can easily just run around, spot a monster, crouch and head shot - instant 800% damage. Even with an extremely low sneak skill. It is a beyond [censored] mechanic. The game would be much better and difficult if they fixed this broken thing.

In Oblivion sneak criticals were based on how high your sneak skill was.
At sneak skill 100 with a melee weapon you'd get a X8 multiplier and ignore any armour making it very deadly.
At under 25 you'd get no critical damage bonus at all, and armour would still have its full effect untill you maxed sneak out at 100.
Base damage was based on weapon type and weapon skill.
Ranged attacks maxed sneak criticals at X4 I think.

In AD&D games like Baldurs gate, you were required to have a light melee weapon, be undetected in stealth, and strike the rear.
The damage multiplier was level based X6 / X8 at max level 30.
The base damage weapon damage and a slight skill bonus if cross classed and specialised in that weapon.
Ranged had no sneak critical damage.
However to hit bonuses were applied, due to being undetected and having a free shot.
All this means that weapons are not the only factor to damage, rather skills that apply to stealth deal the with stealthy parts of combat.

If we take all these into account and try to JR them into NV, it may look like this.

Melee deals X amount of damage on a sneak critical, and could gain a DP bonus maybe based on how high sneak is.
Ranged under 50 - 75 no sneak critical allowed, but less spread ( an automatic hit ).
If over that skill level and equiped with a scoped and or silent weapon a bonus amount is added to damage.
Reflecting the weapon and skill you have are designed to one shot enemies.

@ SniperBOb I was thinking that about with higher difficulty settings, torsos and limbs gain the DR effect but heads don't.
Applied here it would make a lot of sense.

The combat isn't so exciting anymore. Even with advanced power armor you were always afraid if some lucky bastard is going to score a critikal hit that deals hundreds of hit points of damage.

.46ACP, the DAM numbers look balanced...but how bout numbers for Unique variants of the guns? Also, have finished assigning spread values to the weapons?

But yeah, this is amazing. svcks that I'm on console.

Slugs are better. I finished running the numbers for slugs and 12ga slug should get a x1.5 dam modifier and 20ga a x1.2.


I've been collecting accuracy data as I've been doing this. I'm pretty much done with all the base guns and ammo types. I'll be working on accuracy modifiers later. I gotta get more beer first. Serious SCIENTIFIC! data is fueled by the proper beer and cigars, you know. I got two things to get your opinion on first:

A) My numbers for the AMR should have it at 338 DAM. This would be in scale with how I did the other weapons, but I knocked it down to 148 on a lark. Should I stick with the SCIENTIFIC! approach and raise it to 338? It would have a DPS of only 151 because of the slow ROF. Should I make the change, or is it too much?

2) The only uniques I've done so far were those that didn't have a base model. How should I approach them? Should the ones that have a damage boost originally retain a similar boost, even though there's no real SCIENTIFIC! reason for it? I'm leaning towards keeping the extra damamge for the uniques. They are unique, and if they're no better than the originals, why bother with them?

-Gunny out.