Lol...some of u are funny.I did say I" think" it was a screenshot ,anyway I read it off Attack Of The [censored]!

how did you walk away from that game without noticing that with a couple of exceptions........there were all nuts. the orc guy brags about how he doesnt do his kills stealthily to get the extra rewards simply cause he likes killing. or the creepy archer lady. or the leaders who were revelling in killing a colleague. were we even playing the same game. this wasnt the collection of hardened, professional mercenary killers who took pride in the secrecy and stealth of the DB..........they were just a bunch of psychotic unstable whackjobs. vicente was the only real exception and maybe the khajit sinced i dont recall him spouting sithis all the time.

They were just hardcoe sadists, not crazy. Only one of them claimed to hear Sithis speak to her before a murder, she was probably crazy. The rest didn't give off that impression though. Just because one enjoys killing people does not mean they are crazy.

What?

This.

The member of TDB WHERE crazy - you can't enjoy killing and NOT be crazy. It's okay though, because everyone's a little nuts on the inside. Some more than others.

Other than that, TDB is an awesome faction, though the Thieves' Guild was definitely my favorite.

It's funnier because Luke Skyrimmer isn't trying to show you the screenshot, he's showing you the article.

The Dark Brotherhood is said to making a return according to the Dutch magazine Power Unlimited.

The Dark Brotherhood was filled with some of the most one-dimensional characters in the game. I think they tried too hard to make them seem unique and dark when they just come across as children that don't have the intelligence or sense of perspective to really understand what and why they are killing people other than their "god" tells them to do it. They're supposed to be smart assassins yet fully accept some religion they've never even heard of until they decide to join. Every member has the same personality: "Oh, I'm happy to kill people and I'm in a guild that encourages that and that's all there is to me."

Yep. Hard to believe, I know. But some people are able to look past the morality society enforces on people and embrace natural animal instincts. It's not like murder is wrong 100% of the time and that one cannot enjoy it when they feel it is just. But I digress and didn't mean to deter things into a morality debate or something.

That doesn't sound like being crazy, that sounds like being immature. That's something you think about in high school when you're trying to be "dark" and quickly get over when you realize you're not an animal and that the world is hard enough without you adding to it. Only people with antisocial personality disorder actually act on those urges and they are crazy.

What?

Well, that's not what I said and I said nothing about cold-blooded murder, and the concept of realizing you're not an animal is ridiculous.

The Dark Brotherhood assassinates people by the request of others. They can feel as though every murder they commit is fully justified and approved of by their god. Why are they crazy if they enjoy that act? It sounds pretty empowering from that perspective. Does the player not hunt down Mankar Camoran and murder him and his children with the idea that killing them is justified? Would it be wrong to enjoy it? Is it not possible in any scenario to enjoy murder but also be sane?

This was confirmed weeks ago in the GameInformer article.

"But some people are able to look past the morality society enforces on people and embrace natural animal instincts. It's not like murder is wrong 100% of the time and that one cannot enjoy it when they feel it is just."

Sounds like you were trying to justify murder as not being crazy as long as the person decides he's outside society's laws and/or enjoys it.

The player kills Mankar Camoran because the game offers no alternative. He initiates the fight by attacking you and you can't talk him out of it. Also, the Brotherhood's blind acceptance of Sithis and what he thinks qualifies murdering someone is what makes them crazy. If you believe in something so much that you throw out rational thinking and do whatever you're told, than you are crazy. Not even the interesting kind of crazy either.

I only meant that society typically views murder as inheritly wrong and then turns around and kills people during wars and things like that.


But the fact remains that you killed Mankar Camoran. I don't think it would make the player crazy if they enjoyed killing him, especially since it would be backed by the idea of saving tons of people and doing "good." The point being, enjoying killing someone does not necessarily make one crazy.

The Brotherhood's "blind acceptance" of Sithis is not unsimilar to modern day religion. It's about faith. I always interpreted it that the Dark Brotherhood members trust their Listener and the Night Mother. Their assassinations are under the guise of justice. They do not go around killing everyone indiscriminately. For example, Rufio is given to the player as the initiation assassination. Just seems like a harmless and defenseless old man. In reality, Rufio [censored] and murdered a young girl, and the assassination was called in by the father (I think? Or some relative.)

I think the Dark Brotherhood is very misled and misguided but certainly not crazy. Which is not to say that I will not completely change my mind on this after encountering Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood.

I hope there are more female targets this time. I want to kill a rich noblewoman.

oblivions assassinations = kill bandit in fort or cave, oh and that old guy in the pub.

I always quite liked the idea of Sithis being this unexplainable force, a literal void that wasn't daedra or god. It was something profoundly more dark. I think the teenage emo vampire feeling is probably just a personal feeling, but I don't think it's what Bethesda wanted to translate across.

Hopefully Beth has gone back to the Daggerfall style Dark Brotherhood, rather then the "I kick and eat puppies for the glory of Satan Sithis. The Dark Brotherhood is the business side of the schism with small amounts of religious aspects, the Morag Tong was the side that held the worship above business.

"Most scholars believe that the birth of the Dark Brotherhood, the secular, murder-for- profit order of assassins, was as a result of a religious schism in the Morag Tong. Given the secrecy of both cults, it is difficult to divine the exact nature of it, but certain logical assumptions can be made.

In order to exist, the Morag Tong must have appealed to the highest power in Morrowind, which at that time, the Second Era, could only have been the Tribunal of Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec. Mephala, whom the Tong worshipped with Sithis, was said to have been the Anticipation of Vivec. Is it not logical to assume that in exchange for toleration of their continued existence, the Tong would have ceased their worship of Mephala in exchange for the worship of Vivec?

The Morag Tong continues, as we know, to worship Sithis. The Dark Brotherhood is not considered a religious order by most, merely a secular organization, offering murder for gold. "

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-fire-and-darkness


"The important distinction between the Dark Brotherhood and the Morag Tong was that the Brotherhood was a business as much as a cult. Rulers and wealthy merchants now used the order as an assassin's guild. The Brotherhood gained the obvious benefits of a profitable enterprise, as well as the secondary benefit that no longer could rulers actively persecute them."

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-brothers-darkness


It is also important to note that Sithis is not an evil entity who wants souls which is how the Dark Brotherhood from Oblivion view Sithis. In Morrowind and Daggerfall Sithis is represented as "a state of nothingness and constant mutation." Sithis is nothing, Sithis is Padomay.

"Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.'

Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been."

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-sithis

The faith argument isn't really valid here. Most modern organized religions just reinforce what you know in your conscience to be right. Any religion or cult that actively encouraged murder did so by keeping its members away from outside influences and just brainwashed them.

Look, I'm willing to concede that the Brotherhood isn't crazy, that probably wasn't the right word to use in my last post. I just think they're kinda dumb and bland. I just hope they're a little deeper and legitimate in Skyrim. I wanna see Sithis' sources. Maybe have a couple of members who question their orders sometimes.

I'm glad they're back....just so I can kill them all over again! :devil:

all who kill in the name of sithis shall feel the cold sting of my blade! :whoops:

I think that's very debateable but this is not at all the place to get into that.


That I can definitely agree with. Most characters in the DB were unfortunately rather one-dimensional.

And as I said earlier, there's no way that Sithis could possibly be demanding murders since Sithis is not a conscious entity, but a concept of non-existence. It's my current belief that the Night Mother is Mephala, spinning another web to keep her former followers of the Morag Tong ensnared in her service.

I've also heard Sithis is believed by some to be Lorkhan, but I haven't found any in-game indication of that other than Sithis' statue having a hole where his heart should be, though I think that seems more symbolic.

I had assumed they were in anyway, judging from the fact that they operate Empire-wide and how popular the DB questline was in Oblivion.

Murder is wrong, killing is not necessarily wrong. That indeed is a moral dilemma, but the DB are definitely murdering people, not just killing them.
Warfare is not murder, and a solider killing an enemy combatant is not murder. Not only is he protecting himself and his friends, but he is ordered to do so. Any "kills" are on the hands of the state, not the individual.

I like the DB and did not get an emo vibe from them, but you are irrationally thinking about this in a way that makes you seem unintelligent or immature.

Again, murder is always wrong. End of story.

I agree that DB chars were extremely one-dimensional and often childish. The quest line and execution was generally good but the characters.. God.. like they were listening to high school kids and putting in their "cool" ideas..

i was responding to the part where you said they werent killing for the sake of being bad.

equating going to church and following sithis is just stupid. im lutheran and there is a big difference between going to church every sunday and pretending to be sorry for you sins and constantly quoting sithis and killing people cause he enjoys the suffering and blood and guts. they dont even pretend to gussy it up by saying they they are saving souls or freeing their brothers like the crusaders did in the middle ages. they just do it cause sithis want blood and they are nuts. they are loopy and frankly they are not the kind of killers that would be good for the dark brotherhood. the best serial killers are ones that blend in with society and you cant tell them apart from normal people. the only thing that saved the plot from complete stupidness was that the night mother had you kill all of them which i like to believe was because she felt the same way i did about them. they were incompetent and unreliable.

a bit OT, i hope that you have to do alot more than just kill an npc to join them this time around. they set the bar very low for admission into what is supposed to be one of the greatest assassins guilds.

Most fun quests were in the Dark Brotherhood in my opinion. Glad it's back (if true), i don't agree that it has an "emo" vibe at all in Oblivion. It's one of the best factions in the Elder Scrolls i think.