I think some people see the Dark Brotherhood primarily as a splinter of the Morag Tong, rather than a distinct entity, and as such tend to assign more influence to Mephala than the Brotherhood's Night Mother and Sithis.

Edit: Ninja'd by Seriousface.

No one argues that Sithis doesn't exist, just that he's not a crazy death-cult leader.

He can be the idol of a death-cult without being their crazy blood-caller. I don't think the Dark Brotherhood ever alleges to communicate with Sithis himself, only with the mortal they say he impregnated.

This book is from Skyrim, but it states that the Morag Tong also worshiped Sithis alongside Mephala (and that they still worshiped Sithis until they disbanded). It says that the Morag Tong was outlawed everywhere except for Morrowind for murdering Potentate Versidae-Shae, and that the Morag Tong stopped worshiping Mephala and started worshiping Vivec to keep the Tribunal from outlawing them also.

It says that the DB basically formed because the Morag Tong stopped worshiping Mephala and that the DB still worships Mephala, although they don't call her by that name. They call her.. dun dun dun.. The Night Mother.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fire-and-darkness

edited: forgot to put link, durp

Fire and Darkness, while enlightening, leaves a few things unexplained. Whose corpse, for example, lay in the crypt beneath Bravil's Lucky Lady.

Nobody is saying it dosen't exist, just that it would probably not care about a death cult, or even be aware enough to do so.
And the Altmer use Sithis in a different context to the DB. The Altmer say Sithis and mean the same thing as when others say Padomay, they are referring to a force, not a god.

Sithis exists, he's just Change/Void and not Death Metal.

Indeed. Sithis is like Dark Matter. Sounds kinda cool, actually just shorthand for 'stuff we really don't understand'.

You can wipe out the entire sanctuary, but regardless Babettet won't even been there. And whats better than to walk around posing as an unassimg little girl when you have centuries of knowledge with you?

It would likely not be long before she found Cicero, in any case.

But that is not the issue at hand here. This is a question of whether it would ever conceivably be possible to wipe out the Dark Brotherhood.

And it would seem to ultimately boil down to either no, because Sithis is eternal and patient, or no, because Mephala is sadistic and restless.

Yeah, everyone already pointed out. The Night Mother(Or Mephala) can just enter the mix all over again.

I think that Mephala and Sithis work together. Maybe the Night Mother has always been Mephala; Sithis basically created the Night Mother/Mephala when he asked her to kill her 5 children to become his bride. So, when the DB is doing the Night Mother's bidding, they're doing the bidding of Sithis also.

She isn't there during the purging because Bethesda didn't want to incite controversy by involving children in violent situations like that. The understanding that you wiped out the Dark Brotherhood remains despite this limitation of real world politics.

As for the utter destruction of the Dark Brotherhood - yes, I believe they could be ultimately wiped out beyond the brink of return. However, I think it's safe to assume that Sithis would eventually manage to erect a new order of homicidal maniacs in place of the Dark Brotherhood.

That's why she should of had an advlt voice actor. Woulda made killin' her prepubascent flat [censored] all the more kosher.

Gahd do I hate the Dark Brotherhood.

Do you hate the Dark Brotherhood for replacing the Morag Tong? Or for employing people who have altogether too much fun at their job? Or for what you perceive as shallow and silly thematics? Or for another reason altogether?

The DB before Cicero came by was actually pretty cool, and quite Daggerfall-like. Once Cicero came into the picture, it all went downhill from there.

I am unfamiliar with the Daggerfall Dark Brotherhood. While I am completely in agreement with those who would take issue with the laughing jester, I do not think I quite understand what you mean when you say that his presence was a detriment to their ethos.

I thought the Morag Tong were far more interesting, not to say I dislike The Brotherhood but it still seems a downgrade to me.

Pre-Oblivion DB, or the Dark brotherhood as they appeared in Daggerfall, (since we really only kill them in Morrowind,) are effectively equivalent to Pre-Cicero Skyrim DB. Oblivion DB are effectively equivalent to Post-Cicero Skyrim DB, which is to say, a bunch of [censored] lunatics getting off on a corpse in an iron cask while they imagine their personal deslusion of the primordial Is Not to be whispering sweet nothings in their ears. In other words, it's a choice between a den of assassins much closer to the Thieves guild in how they run the show... or a bunch of muderous emo-clowns. Tramps.

Which is to say, if you like a bunch of murderous clowns blissing themselves on shadows, then cool beans. It just gets old for most people after about fifteen minutes, let alone two bloody games.

Fair enough. However, I didn't really get the impression that Cicero managed to bring the Brotherhood back to the way it was in Oblivion, personally. I saw him as a corrupted relic of a corrupted order that was trying, in his unwittingly corrupted manner, to bring the old ways back to the organization, perceiving the old ways to be more or less a predilection towards licking blood off of daggers while breathlessly crowing praise to the void. I didn't see him as really making any progress in that respect.

The Night Mother, on the other hand, I saw as a more wholesome foil to Cicero's madness. A businesslike icon remembering a businesslike order and attempting in as businesslike a manner as possible to return the organization to its roots, its roots being an adherence to the Five Tenets, a veneration of the Night Mother and an underlying respect for Sithis. She, I thought, was much more successful by the end.

This, this right here.

There isn't a reference to an ultra cheesy emo death god, though. Just to something that's actually interesting. Add to that Mephalas known tendency to meddle in the affairs of mortal man for her own amusemant, and it seems a lot more reasonable and palatable than "Sithis stopped being cool and started cutting himself while listening to bad music."

Because it is a splinter of the Morag Tong. That is what it is. It schismed and then grew larger than its original so Mephala's little prank could amuse her even more. What a [censored], isn't she?

I am inclined to disagree, my good man, as is my prerogative within the Elder Scrolls universe.

I prefer to imagine the Dark Brotherhood as a distinct organization dedicated to the reverence of Sithis and his mortal agent. I prefer to perceive it as a cult that may once have treated death and sacrifice with the deference and honor befitting a holy sacrament, and which has degenerated over the centuries into a frenzy of gibbering madmen as the purpose and significance of their rites and rituals have been forgotten. It appeals to me, the idea of an ancient and secret order being embraced and mutated by a dissenting faction of the Morag Tong. The idea that the Dark Brotherhood you describe as a bunch of emo-clowns is the product of Mephala's corruption, not Mephala's creation.

Until Cicero came along, the Brotherhood as of 4E201 was just an assassins' guild. Before then they were a Sithis/Mephala death cult. To go back to the original question of destroying them, my answer is "yes". Other Sithis or Mephala (if the Night Mother actually is Mephala) cults may arise, and other assassin organizations may pop up. Whether these two groups' ideals would ever be married again, who knows?

Hmph, a little off-topic but some ideas have come to mind from this discussion and I can't help but spring them.
So I would ponder to the thought of The Missing God having two halves. Shor the Aedra, Lorkhan the Daedra.


Anuic: Shor, Wulfharth/Zurin Arctus/Tiber Septim, Talos, Shezzar, Auri-El, Akatosh, Tosh Raka, Mankar Cameron, Alduin.

The Realms of Secunda - Sovngarde, Mantellan Crux, Jagar Tharn's Pocket Realm, Paradise.

Hmmmm.. that Imperial Library posting about Talos's adventure on the moon might be relevant here, so might be the ending of Skyrim.
To note: Jagar Tharn's Pocket Realm is mentioned because I would believe the staff of chaos is just a shard of the Mantella, on a stick.


Padomaic: Lorkhan, Dagoth Ur, Vivec, Baar Dau, Sheogorath, The Hist, Sithis, Cicero, Night Mother, Mephala.

The Realms of Masser - Dawn's Beauty, The Shivering Isles, The Void, The Web.

One could probably chuck Mannimarco in here somewhere. The Necromancer's Moon would tie wonderfully with this abomination.
Maybe even Arkay would be justifiable to place in this connection or enantiomorph. His link with death could symbolise with Sithis, Mannimarco.


But at any rate, don't take any of this rambling notes to be serious. It's just a random idea that popped into my head and I thought I'd post it.