You pretty much said absolutely nothing to support your side. Anyone saying that Mephala tricking everyone into thinking that she's Sithis is really, really stretching. There's no concrete evidence of this anywhere. There are many books stating that Sithis is behind the DB, but I've never seen a single one even hinting that Mephala is behind it. It's not even really conjecture; it's more like a random thought that someone had and no one could really disprove it.

It actually comes from Fire and Darkness, a book which posits that the Dark Brotherhood formed as a splinter-group of the Morag Tong. But I agree with you, otherwise.

Sithis is simply a force of nature made a god by fabricreation.

He was there from the start as a simple void but then the DB staarted worshopping him, and he became a soul dump.

Nothing that you approve of, obviously

But I wouldn't trust goofy sociopathic assclown doctrine. Moreover, I think it more of stretch to attribute the phenomena to the explicit will of the motherfetchin' metaphysical VOID OF THE COSMOS, when we have these Thrasymachian Devil-Planets who are renowned for the skill and pleasure with which they routinely troll mortals into physical and spiritual catastrophe. Sithis is behind the Brotherhood in the same way that Gravity technically conditions everything else going on in its influence. It's there, certainly, and it's inexorable (under normal circumstances), but that doesn't mean it has volition or urges people to kill. Especially when Mephala already does that.

Again just a bunch of random ranting with big words to make you sound more intelligent. No links to books in game to back up your statements, no in game conversation to back up your statements..

Maybe it's both?

Recall that worship can affect the gods. Perhaps Sithis was originally just The Void, but after enough worship by the DB, Sithis also became some kind of "soul dump" as The_Noob says.

Your ad hominen is unappreciated and unnecessary, besides the fact that I use the words that I do for prosaic aesthetics, not to impress total strangers on the internet. I happen to take just a smidgen of pride in what I write, thank you very much.

As for sauce, I don't dispense sauce on command when it comes to these freaky ontological skull-seshes, mainly because I don't feel like spending hours on TIL tracking down every last gorram scrap of evidence that I remember reading six years ago, but not where. Rest assured in yer lil' bed though, Sithis is not much more than the name Tam-Rughers have slapped on the logical necessity IS NOT. Mephala, however, is The God Of Trolling.

If that's ranting, fine, I'll be in my mountain-shack writing manifestos in my best tin-foil hat if anybody needs me.

I maintain that to insist that Mephala is masquerading as Sithis is to ignore and deny substantial evidence to the contrary.

In any case, Sithis is more than IS NOT. Sithis is the soul, the mind, the will of Padomay. An autonomy that is capable of action. Indeed, which MUST act, if you are to misinterpret the Void as dynamism. Come on, you know that.

Why bother to even post your opinion on the matter, or even continue posting about if you're not willing to prove what you have to say? Anyone can make up a bunch of BS and paint it with flowery words to make it seem true.

Sithis is just a potent metaphor, and the Dark Brotherhood's "worship" is self-induced psychosis.

Any other example of a gruesome murder, sadistic torture or any other unpleasant event is accredited to a Daedra's work.

The whole "Void=Evil Incarnate" and "Murder=Evil" dichotomy is tired. The Morag Tong was a much more nuanced setup.

Hey now, everyone, calm down. We're all friends here, right? Come on, now, put down the knife. That's it...

You must be new here.

He's saying Sithis is akin to gravity. It's an ever present FORCE rather than a being, and no amounts of stuff you throw off a cliff, you will still fall at 9.81 m/s^2 like everything else. Same deal with Sithis. No matter how many people you kill in his name, it's not really going to notice or care. Here, read 'http://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth' to get where we're coming from.

And instead of paying attention to a bunch of whack-jobs who do not have even a remotely close unified idea of what Sithis is, you should turn towards the daedric prince who does that already, and was the head patron of the Dark Brotherhood in Daggerfall and explained in the book, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fire-and-darkness. Remember, the Dark Brotherhood are an offshoot of the Morag Tong, who revere Mephala.

This. This is exactly my argument.

The Night Mother. Her tomb, corpse and children. The shade of Lucien Lachance. His testimony. All these things off the top of my head lend credence to the Dark Brotherhood's doctrine.

You may not like their thematics and methods, but the evidence is there that Sithis is their patron. And to say that it's all Mephala is a [NUMINIT] argument. Once you start denying the observed evidence, you can pretty much claim anything as true.

Right, now show me actual positivistic evidence, i.e. interventionalist Sithis itself.

Don't confuse dynamism with volition. Tornados are dynamic, but they don't have a grudge against midwesterners.

Fine, so Sithis as Dynamic does not imply mind. Sithis as Soul of Padomay, however, does. The will of Sithis is what differentiates the two.

In any case, never has anyone suggested that Sithis directly intervenes in the mortal realm. Only that his is the will by which the Dark Brotherhood kills and that he is the force that the Night Mother and by extension the Brotherhood obey. Lachance's and the Night Mother's testimony corroborate this.

Ah. But that is almost the first rule of the game we have been playing since the Redguard forum madness. Don't deny, but absorb all available material in your argument.

"...appropriately, Padomay is just as ineffable an entity as Anu. This is how the Psijiic Order treats him, at least. His original (Aldmeris? Ehlnofex?) name is PSJJJJ, which is and was meant to be unpronounceable. The Order was founded and organized to divine Padomay's eternal and ever-changing mystery. "Sithis" is a corruption of "Psijii" which, in turn, was a derivation of the high concept PSJJJJ. Sithis was born when a nihilist sect of the already doom-ridden Chimeri merged (under Mephala’s tutelage) Daedric elements with the Inexpressible Action that was Padomay. In essence they began to revere Padomay's Chaos nature (as opposed to that of Anu, who is Order), and over the years degenerated into a thuggish mystery-cult which wanted to "murder the world." The Dark Brotherhood was born in these times-- which, in Morrowind, is known as the Morag Tong. Some of the higher-level Morag Tong maintain that they predate the Dark Brotherhood (more evidence of this later). That, in fact, they are an organization devoted to playing out the eternal interplay of Nir. Assassination, they say, is the purest celebration of joy or living. Whatever the case, the Padomay of Morrowind (and isolated Dark Brotherhood sects) is not the Padomay of Artaeum...." - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos

This should already clear up the discussion about Sithis and Sithis. The Sithis of Morrowind, the Sithis of the Dark Brotherhood, is not the Sithis of Artaeum.

The statue of Sithis should clear up who Sithis is. He stands without a heart, caged in bones. Lorkhan.

Perhaps this comes as a surprise but Lorkhan was the soul of Sithis soul of Padomay, Lorkhan brought mortality back to the Aurbis. Lorkhan is the god of mortality. And as the Chimer merged Daedric elements of Mephalas teaching, goddess of hidden plots, with the Inexpressable action of Padomay, is it any surprice Lorkhan shows up? Who else make a better pair for Dreadfather and Nightmother then Mepala and Lorkhan? Assassination is the merger between their spheres.

No matter the origin, no secret murder can be committed without resemblance to them and so they will become involved because the people involved become them. Remember it is not about the name of the thing, but the role it plays out. This is a fundamental mystical property to the Aurbis.

Was just about to say something like that, proweler, but you put it in much better than what I would have done.

Soul does not necessarily imply mind, not in English anyway.

But I'm not interested in doctrine. I want to know how we can verify Sithis qua Dread Father independently of the fever dreams of dangerous psychotics.

EDIT: Lore Ninja'd. The worse kind of Ninja'd.

I find Proweler's argument more compelling. For what is half our lore, if not the fever dreams of dangerous psychotics? But yes, Proweler makes an excellent point, one I should have seen earlier.

However, if Sithis is an entomological corruption of the concept of inexpressible chaos used by the Daedra Mephala to manipulate the fearful Chimer, what does that make the Anuic counterpart, Anuiel? Or is that just a reflection conceptualized by mortals attempting to assign balance to imbalanced forces?

If all the DB was wiped out, including the NM, Sithis could simply find another champion as a conduit into the mortal plane. And for those who say Sithis doesn?t care about the DB, how would you explain Lucien Lachance`s return as a spirit, claiming to 'Serve the Dark Lord'? I doubt the spirit of a long-dead assasin would bother to lie about being with Sithis?

Gravity also talks to me, and it tells me to throw things off cliffs, as told through the Heavy Mother. Read what proweler wrote, as it's really the best explanation. Plus, the PC never hears Sithis at all, just a bunch of loony assassins going "I HEEEAR SITHISSS!! I SPEEEEL BLUUD FOR HIM!"

Lucien Lachance remains unaccounted for, unless Lorkhan is understood to be the Dark Brotherhood's Sithis.

Also, what about the Night Mother? If we understand her to be the Mephala to Sithis' Lorkhan, then whose corpse is that in the coffin?

In Skyrim? Who knows? No dearth of corpses in Tamriel. Let's say Cicero's own mother.