Recall had some cost to it:
* Time needed to find.
* Money to buy.
* Only one destination.

Compare to "cost" of Oblivions fast travel:
* 1 second feather spell lasts anywhere you want to go.

Balanced?

In any case, I don't think recall was used as a teleporter the way you think - getting around on the map. We had fast travel for that. Except it was fast travel with options, and not free. Recall I believe was mostly used to get back to you cart at the start of the dungeon, or any important location within the dungeon you wanted to reach fast. Unlike Morrowind and Oblivion, these were very confusing dungeons.

I've suggested solutions to fast travel system which incorporates oblivion system in a way that makes sense, where the whole point is "there is no such thing as a fast, no cost, free of risk, exploitative trip". When their options are set (once and for all, and even have a save button for setting default, just in case they need to make an exception), it will be exactly the same for them as it is now - except it has some kind of cost and no exploits. But that is somehow not good enough, and they prove that that don't care about other suggestions or don't read other posts (the previous one) by posting "if you don't like it, don't use it". It's ridiculous.

The point in ANY game (particularly RPGs) is to present a challenge in a balanced fashion where just about anything is some sense of compromise.

But it's not only fast travel that is problematic. See the magic system. Many complains that the spells are not powerful enough. At the same time, they don't want to trade away regenerative magicka for more powerful spells. I see this in other games too, where everyone just wants the good stuff and none of the bad. I.e. a mod called ACE for Arma2, they added a backpack system that allowed you to carry a lot of useful items, but to rebalance they also added a weight and stamina system to get penalties for packing too much. People complained like mad In the end it became an option for the mission designer - backpack with stamina system, or no backpack and no stamina system. It's the same here; to make the game more attractive they made magicka regenerate, but was forced to reduce the spell effects to rebalance.

In the fast travel case, you just scream "if you don't like it, don't use it". If a proper system was made, it would be trivial to mod it into whatever we'd like. But without it, it's really hard, since the game is so much based around it. How can you have a time sensitive mission with the current fast travel? It fails before it is crafted. Games like Red Dead Redemption has a travel system, and fast travel is part of that system. It has a (too) tiny cost by having to setup camp. Arma2 which is much much larger has fast travel systems in their more casual game modes - Warfare allows you to travel to previously taken towns, but it takes a while to fast travel there - Domination allows teleportation by moving a vehicle into location but can be destroyed by the enemy. Everything is balanced with a cost - in Oblivion there is squat cost (just gains actually).

In the magicka regen case, people accepted that spells are less powerful. There is nothing they can do about it (other than modding). And yet it works. Personally I think regenerative magicka is extremely weird - it's *magic* we're talking about for crying out loud! Gamers will adopt to a lot, and adventurers can take some beating. If pleasing the reviewers is the goal, the game made a wrong turn somewhere.

What you say is right ....if i understand it right that is.
People expect way to much at once from a game,but its not all bad.
You get people that complain about morrowind & oblivion,yes they are not perfect but both games are probably this best i've played ( i like freedom in my games ).
But what gets me is.....people who over complain about these games...but at the time of release they loved them.....Also you get people who complain that much,i wonder why they are the forums.Because to me there is only one reason you be on this forum in the first place.....AND thats because we all love elder scrolls...and if we love the elder scrolls that means we loved the games.
When you first play morrowind ,oblivion etc...you love it ( i did anyway ) at the time you get well into the game and enjoy it.....its usually only after a few months,that we look at them in hind-sight and say now there crap they could have done this and could of done that. ( but i dont think that at all i've just started playing morrowind again for the first time in years...and i'm loving it ) .I think some people need to think back when they first played the games that got them into the elder scrolls in the first place...to make them realize how much they liked them at the time.It's easier to pick at things once you've done a few times etc.
Also i would like to note i like how bethesda has the balls to change things,things DO need to change to keep them fresh/up to date etc.
Not everyone will like those changes....but i like what i've heard about skyrim so far.If bethesda does'nt try new things how would they know if it would work or not?.....its how you improve over time,by testing the water "so to speak".
If bethesda did'nt change things people would complain about that too.......i get sick of people complaining all the time,some i understand,but most is uncalled for.
Will the new changes work in skyrim?....who knows......but i like what i've seen so far and welcome the change with open arms.
I dont think the game will be inbalanced either.....would bethesda employ more people to make a game worse?....not in my book.Why would they spend time making an engine,more time on AI,more time on animation and other things,for it to fall flat on it [censored] and be unbalanced.....i just can't see it....i trust bethesda to make skyrim "not just a good game"....but an epic game.
Another thing i've noticed.....is people complaining about the graphics,before they've even seen them runnining properly.But i've noticed some who said the graphics were'nt that good....have piped down since someone said that picture of the mountains and dragons are game graphics. It goes to show we judge to early,and jump on the band wagon.
I dont like fast travel,but i wont complain till i'm blue in the face or slate the game if it is.
And i can understand the dont use it saying a little,but it's the temptation that is always there,i rarely used it ,but sometimes did,depending on my mood etc,but more often than not thought why did i use it.But i can understand it for people who like it.....after all the game is for everyone,not just me....just make it an option "ON" or "OFF"...best of both worlds

Yes i know and its pathetic, it wasnt everyone that complained, alot of people liked the system but because a few people didnt like having to walk here or there it was removed.

And alchemy and levitation are not really in your face, levitation especially, you have to buy the spell and the alchemy equipment, ive never used alchemy or levitation as an exploit even with pure mage characters :shrug:

I think you've misunderstood.
The poster i was replying to said that there are no teleport spells in any other game except Morrowind, i was pointing out that there is.

Im well aware of what recall was primarily used for in Daggerfal, as well as the way fast travel works in it. I play Daggerfall quite often

And ive never said oblivions fast travel was balanced, ever, in fact i really, really dont like it.

The don't want it don't use it argument would remain valid in the 3rd case - if you didn't want it badly enough, the self-control wouldn't really be an issue - surely the level of self-control you exercise is proportional to the importance of the matter it is being exercised in?

In Oblivion, I had actually restricted myself to not only not use fast travel, but to also stick to the roads to get to my destination (unless the quest called for me to go off-road, or if I was just randomly exploring, or I just felt particularly adventurous). By the time I was doing the http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Order_of_the_Virtuous_Blood_(quest) quest, I had to relinquish on that. Seriously, a quest that asks you to keep going back-and-forth between the Imperial City and toward Cheydinhal, where the only road off the IC island was on the other side, additionally making you have to track all around Lake Rumare.. it's just insane if you're trying to actually role-play. Even if you had a horse (clunky controls and all), it still takes you an insane amount of time to get from the IC and circle around Lake Rumare to get to the other side.

And don't even get me started on the Vampire Cure quest. [NUMMIT].

In contrast, the http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Separated_at_Birth was handled a little bit better. Although it had you running back and forth between Chorrol and Cheydinhal, it didn't put pressure on you to go back and forth immediately. It was a do-it-on-your-own-time quest, where you could continue it when you happen to be in the area.

I hate
http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/minimutfak_zeytinyagli_taze_fasulye.JPG

I like
http://www.nostaljim.org/images/kurufasulye.jpg

I don't like
http://www.meleklermekani.com/imagehosting/800px-pilav-8161.jpg

I adore
http://galeri.uludagsozluk.com/20/kuru-fasulye-pilav_11102.jpg

It is complicated.

Still when I am hungry, I eat them.

That goes back to the 'no alternatives' problem. If the game is designed around the expectation of you fast traveling, and you don't like the only fast travel system the game has, it does take a good amount of willpower to avoid using the fast travel system, especially if you don't mind fast travel in principle, just not the way the game implemented it. Most would just say "[NUMMIT] it," and concede to using fast travel as the lesser of two evils.

I think there is a sort of spectrum.

- On the one hand you have some people who are going to be bored walking around at all and just want to fast travel. I'm talking about folks who would perhaps even want a cheat that reveals all map markers from the beginning, so they are almost never walking at all in the game.

- At the other extreme you have some people who are never going to fast travel or use a teleport spell, or any kind of travel network, no matter what is available.

Most people fall somewhere in between.

For those of you are in between these extremes, I'd like to ask, do you think there is any possibility that Skyrim will succeed somehow (by means of more NPCs, quests, more interesting creatures, landscape, whatever) to make the wilderness and roads a lot more fun to traverse than Morrowind and Oblivion? If so, what would make it less boring to walk around?

My restriction was much easier to follow. Fast travel for return journeys only (i.e., cave to Imperial City but not Imperial City to cave).

I didn't restrict myself to the roads so I would just swim to get to Cheydinhal. Much faster than circling the entire IC.

From my experience, I would prefer for the game to define the restrictions instead but I wouldn't want to lose the map-based fast travel completely.

Perfect example for me of don't use it is carts. Seen a lot of guys wanting horses and carts or hand carts. Whether because they are in Daggerfall, or they just want to carry half a ton of armour to sell in a town is up to them. I don't care. If they want them let them have them. I won't mind . But my Altmer Witch Wouldn't be seen dead with one. Won't use them , don't want to stop anyone else using one, everybody's happy.

This is why it would be great if they just have both systems so everybody has the option they want (and i suppose 'game defined restrictions' is where the toggle at the start of the game feature would come into it).
But alas, i doubt it'll have both. :sadvaultboy:

You are exactly right.



If they try to build the world coherently, then no. If coherence is abandoned, there are a lot of solutions.

The easiest is to make the roads extremely dangerous so people feel accomplished for just surviving a trip from Winterhold to Dawnstar. It's hard to be bored when you are struggling to live.

Honestly playing Oblivion with FCOM/Oscuro's,/MMM etc as well as Enhanced Economy (prices more expensive), Real Hunger/Sleep/Thirst mods and the difficulty slider dialed up, at lower levels it feels exactly like this for me. (even with the difficulty slider at 50-75% - havent' even tried max difficulty)

I have to summon a scamp to try to distract enemies and just constantly run away because I get oneshotted frequently and have no powerful spells or weapons yet.

Sad but true

Love it. "I need to get to the next town, what are my fast travel options?" "Well, you walk the North Road. Safe enough except for the odd bandit. A wolf pack would need to be really hungry to trouble you on the road. You would travel there faster." "Is that my only fast travel option?" " Well, you could take the shortcut through the Grimwood........"

I just hope the game is really hard!

That would make fast travel even more preposterous.. being able to traverse dangerous roads with ease. It would also not get rid of the temptation of using it when you're in danger.

I think a better idea would be to just make more interesting road-side locations. In Oblivion, there were a number of places that were just out of sight from the main roads (Border Watch, Bleaker's Way, etc), and exploration in general was not very rewarding in Oblivion, so there was no real gameplay-oriented incentive to walking. There wasn't too much of interest to see or do by walking, and that's what makes it boring.

This sums it up nicely.

Ok, point taken I read it like recall was a teleport (with way better capabilities than it had). If I'm ever going to fire up Daggerfall now, it will only be to see if *that* can be played without using fast travel

By the way, I'm not saying that dangerous roads is the best solution just the easiest.

In Fallout : New Vegas, I felt very accomplished for surviving Cazadors on some of the roads.

Best of luck with that. May I recommend instant coffee, you will fall asleep waiting for the decent stuff to brew.

Way to trivialize my issues. I couldn't give a rats ass about fast travel, if it's there I'll use it and if not I'll walk. FT is not really a balancing issue, not to me any way. The depth of alchemy is what svcked me into Morrowind in the first place and it was my main focus. Lucky for me I was not online for the duration of my time in Morrowind and didn't discover the exploit until after 1000 hrs(mostly from starting over and trying different builds) but once I discovered the exploit the game was ruined for me.

"Don't use it if you don't want it" and "don't take away my options cause you have no self control" and "you should be able to do anything you want in an open world" are all poor excuses for having unbalanced game play. I like a game with choices not options and what makes such a game balanced is having to choose between two prizes and the game is broken if you have the option to take both.

No they won't. I submit Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion as evidence that they won't. They're easily the most unbalanced games I've ever played. Especially morrowind.

So THAT's why Fallout 3 was even more horribly balanced than Oblivion... :whistling:

As for the topic at hand.

CAN WE LOSE THE FAST TRAVEL DISCUSSION AND START TALKING ABOUT THE REAL POINT OF THIS THREAD???

Thanks. :spotted owl: