I just want to make a point about this argument that people use about whatever thing they suggest be it a perk that they find cool but would unbalance the game or anything else.

In RPG games trying to be an effective killing machine is supposed to be a challenge that is not achieved easily. When you break the game by adding something that makes it easy to become overpowered you break that experience. players want to become strong but they dont want to become strong the easy way they want to deserve it. I have to admit that the precious 5/5/5 in oblivion were a bit too much and it should be easier but all those things people suggest that would make you a god just don't make sense to build an enjoyable experience.

Thanks if you read. comment and hate if you want :thumbsup:

I agree this game better be balanced or I will cry. It's a major key to the games fun factor. And challenging but rewarding!

The attitude bothers me that there is a feature they're making of the game they think people won't want to use. There should be a feeling of comprehensive game design such that the features make sense and people generally find them desirable.

Nope, no hate here. Give me balance or give me death!

AYYYYE!!! :foodndrink:

It would be nice to see the games perk system work with a sense of balance that would be great.

hey! The developpers don't listen to 100% of that people say in the forums anyways. they WILL make it balanced, don't worry. this isn't EA. they'll make sure it works BEFORE selling it

and BTW, if they DID implent EVERYTHING that the forumers have said in the game, we'd have a game that has graphics so high that even a NASA supercomputer can't play, Morrowind's BORING AS [censored] fighting system, a fantasy game turned into a survival one (hardcoe mode), 2900 races that add absolutely NOTHING to the game, armor in which we can put the bolts we want and enchant them for 100% chameleon EACH, there would be no damn enemies as everyone seems to hate some and ask "oh please don't put it in!"
and that's not counting that the game would never release because people would STILL complain even if the game was perfect, because they have nothing else to do. and there's a lot I've spared for not wanting to do a heart-attack out of rage

seriously, I'm starting to miss the super-nintendo era... at least by that time, people played games for fun. now it's the end of the world if one [censored] pixel doesn't look perfect

ever since morrowind, right after i am released from being a prisoner, i make my player character as strong as i want him to be, buy all the spells i need, find my armor set, choose/enchant my weapon, and become a vampire first (the boring part for me but its worth it). after this, then i enjoy the elder scrolls experience by doing infamous faction quest lines i want to do, when all of this is done, i explore the beauty of the land and explore the dungeons :yes:

yea i would like every perks to have either give a very small bonus or give equal downsides to their upsides

"Don't want it don't use it" is simply a flawed logic. If it was just something completely unrelated to gameplay, like the HUD color ("invisible/visible" is another story already) or something, this'd be an acceptable argument. But for everything that actually matters to gameplay, we always need to keep the rest of the game design in mind. Something always depends on almost every feature. Fast travel for example: Many quests are designed around it. Imagine the alternative to using fast travel would be passing through dangerous terrain; the quest changes from a tiny duty to a dangerous journey. That'd not always be bad, but in some cases such things can lead to serious issues and/or ruin immersion. And never forget how one player probably does not only dislike one thing about the game, but several things. So if you say "don't use fast travel if you don't like it", "put the difficulty up if you don't like having ten arrows stuck in your chest" and "turn quest markers off if you don't like them", you change the quest "Bring this letter to in the imperial city" from "click on that marker and talk to that guy" to "take a dangerous journey to the imperial city, avoiding these mudcrabs that could easily kill you (due to levelling and high difficulty), and when you're finally there, you'll have to enter every single house to find that random dude". Some people don't want silly gameplay, and yet don't want the features other people want.

Of course, there's only two solution. Actually working alternatives being implemented (such as a difficulty slider that does more than just changing health points or proper alternatives to fast travel, like boats, or a decrease in wildlife directly on the roads, thus making the journey exactly as dangerous as with fast travel), or a discussion about which feature actually is superior. "I don't want to discuss, just don't use it" is NOT a solution.

I like your point about enemies I would like to fight some I dont wish to never fight in the game, it does seem like alot of people dont wish to fight at all I've talked alot on threads about that. I would like to fight but not evrything should attack you but there needs to be fighting. It would also be a massive task to put everything on here in the forums in an Elder Scrolls title. Alot of people I've pvssyd with want balance in this entry I would like that too.

Well the perks system doesn't equal becoming overpowered easily. That was just the latest incarnation of the system from Daggerfall and Oblivion that showed up in Fallout. They will have tweaked it better this time around for Skyrim. As for the perks suggested in one of the other threads, they were suggestions for perks for fun, not for the actual game seeing as how the devs probably have finished most of the perks and are just fine tuning things. I mean, in the latest hub update you find that screenshot of the character fighting a cave troll is from 2009, thats over a year ago.

They should add something to the experiance like a gameplay changer and the like alongside what you mentioned.

Yes its also a good point. A simple +10% damage with swords is just a damn boring perk. they have to find out original perks that will change our way of playing the game according to our choices

oh and BTW, perks were already in oblivion. they were just automatic when you reached a certain level of skill.
they just varied them more, and gave you the choice

Don't want it don't use it is fine for say fast travel IMO but skills should be balanced it's unfair if you need to fill 4 skills to make an agile character but only 3 to make a tank, items to a certain exstent I'm also fine with limiting my self to(ala potions/stimpacks) but if your trying to be quite unusual in your play style you may have to make sacrifices, can't have everything.

It just annoys me that there are so many people complaining about systems in a game they haven't seen played and haven't even played it themselves. Somehow perks have made your character be too easy to overpower. How? Have you played the game through yet? No, you haven't. Same goes for the new leveling system. People say it makes the game too easy because you can pick between more skills and ruins diversity. Really? It's happened to you when you played it? How about people stop saying how such and such feature impacts the game when you don't even know how the feature impacts the game. This is like Theory-crafting on steroids. You don't even have numbers or hard facts to work with and your still predicting and then saying what your prediction is as fact. How about you wait until you see how the game plays or better yet, play the game before you start complaining about the game, which people will because it's not Morrowind and if it isn't Morrowind it isn't a good game.

P.S, this isn't aimed at the OP or anyone else, just a general view of how things work. I just find this thread a fitting home for my venting of this topic hehe. I'm on the side of the OP.

why do you even say that? no one complained about the fact that they put perks in skyrim here.

@Sleing i dont know to who you direct that but were just discussing the best way to do implement choosable perks not complaining about them. and the wait and see how it works is not a valid point because after the game is out we can't do anything about it anymore.

were just saying don't do simple +10% dammage perks that are boring and dont make overpowered perks, were not saying that there are such perks in the game

Agreed, OP

People are really fast and loose with the "don't like it, don't use it" slogan, it's idiotic. I'll say it a million times and I'll say it again, these are adventure games, the developers create a unique world with it's own set of laws and principles, and the player sets out to challenge that world. If you make a bunch of garbage like fast traveling, or extremely unbalanced combat features the "don't like it, don't use it" argument is entirely null. If I know that feature is there, yet I CHOOSE not to use it, it defeats the whole purpose of the game being an interesting challenge. It's not a "make your own custom adventure" what the heck is the point in that? The laws and principles of the game world should be written in stone, and they should be written well, and done so in a balanced manner so the player can approach challenges in their own unique way.

In Morrowind, the world was all laid out for you, enemies are as strong as they are, a loots price affects it's permanent rarity status, theres no fast travel; yet the game still presents you with fair ways of doing things manually. The game is challenging, and everything in it is at your disposal to challenge and explore the world, and you don't have to feel guilty about using it since it is necessary. (there are a few exceptions, but not many)

By the way, I'm not ripping on perks. I like the idea. Though I wish it'd be called "Abilities" instead of "perks" I want to feel like I'm playing Elder scrolls when Im playing elder scrolls, not Fallout 3 with swords and magic.

The win is strong with this one.

The problem is much of the time it really does fall into the title of "lack of self control."

When people ask for options it doesn't bother me. When people want to exclude an option entirely all because they personally don't want it, such as fast travel, then just have to shake my head.

i dont really complain about what impacts the game, i just focus on what the game offers

Yes and not to mention alot of people don't realize that the relative gameplay time of a character that finishes all the content in Morrowind (without expansions) and Oblivion (without expansions) are about the same, if not a little bit more with Oblivion and Oblivion has fast travel. What does that say about Oblivion? If you had a siltstrider network, then Oblivion would be like 3-4 times longer than Morrowind. Fast travel was needed in Oblivion though it could use a tone down in Skyrim like only being able to fast travel to Cities or Villages. But people just can't say, well fast travel made the game too easy and blah blah blah. NO, it made the game not have to have 40 hours of needless walking back and forth across all of Cyrodiil and more of actually playing the game. I didn't have any trouble exploring with fast travel, I mean I still had to run to X cave in the woods and run by Daedric shrines and camps. But fast travel toned down will allow for the ease of travel to reduce needless backtracking like in Morrowind and allow for a more exploring aspect. So yes, I totally agree with your assessment.



This is completely right. I know that what ruined Oblivion for alot of people is they spent all their time looking for things to compare Oblivion to Morrowind and when they found things that were missing from Morrowind in the game it made them angry for no reason and so their only memories of the game were trying to compare them and they tie their gameplay experience in Oblivion to the disappointment/anger they had thus spoiling a good game for them. When I play a game, I play them for the game they are and then when I'm finished I compare them, that way I don't break immersion into the game by wasting my time and concentration on comparisons.

Perks are fine, they simply need to be presented in such a way that they offer the player to play the game in a unique manner. Also, I think NPCs should automatically gain perks depending on their skills. It's not fair that the player is given abilities while average NPC joes are not.



NO, stop that.

Heres the difference, you want a New Feature, wheras somebody else may not. The Key word here is NEW, as in, added on top of the core gameplay.

While you may like being spoonfed through the entire game there are those of us who want a genuine challenge, if those features are still there it simply breaks immersion. When I'm walking between a city (or wishing I could pay to take a silt strider) the fact that fast travel is in the game will be nagging at the back of my head, reminding me that Im taking the hard way when I dont have to, even though at heart I want to. Let me make an anology to explain the situation.

Lets say you set off from home to have a dangerous, riveting and exciting adventure. If the fun of the adventure is the challenge, it wouldn't very well be fun if you had a car driving next to you the entire time with a guy leaning out the window saying "hop in mate, I'll just drive you there so you don't need have have any of this adventure nonsense"

people request that fast travel is taken for various reasons. first, it is not immersive and is not realistic 9because you never encounter enemies) second it has been implemented because of the poor desing of the game world making it hard to travel from cities to cities to be near everything. if they would have placed cities and villages wisely then the need for that fast travel system would not be needed. the fact that we could travel with caravan in all those cities and village would put us near every quest destinations.