The Draw distance gets far too little credit : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:22 pm

We also have to consider that the real purpose and "special thing" of the "new" Creation engine is to "draw everything". It was because of this Bethesda didn't choose the id Tech 5 engine that Rage uses. We should therefore expect the draw distance to be huge for everything, yet we see pretty big flaws as I mentioned.

Id's Tech 5 engine wouldn't of been possible to use for Skyrim as it can't handle open world games, Carmack has stated this himself.

Yeah... I mean the tundra scene is so incredibly detailed compared to Red Dead Redemption (which also got no cell seperation).

Just look at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9MBqdME14I&feature=player_detailpage#t=162s
and then at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L76TTv10PkA&feature=player_detailpage#t=416s

See all the hundreds of bushes everywhere and all the cactuses in Red Dead Redemption? Skyrim's environments surely are the most detailed in the history of all video games; Skyrim definitely draws more than any other game ever seen before.

/End sarcasm.

You do realize the tech has to account for the highest denominator right? By this I mean the tech has to be able to handle the high density part's. With how the game work's it's not unthinkable to have hundreds of props on screen at once thus they have to plan the performance structure around that. So just because you can point out the tundra as an example surely does not mean you have true argument.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:04 pm

Just cause 2 map is around 400 km large without any loading at all, and when you fly a plane you can see as far as your eye can see and you can still see grass, trees enemy strongholds and its friking beautiful, without them magically drawing in front of you like in Skyrim so no offense but Bethesda could have done much much better, and if you don't trust me just go install Just cause 2 and play it for some time and than come back and tell me what do you think about Skyrim draw distance compared to that.

Wait, what? Go back and reread your last posts. You stated that there was a reason that Skyrim had lower draw distances, then you go on to unequivocally attack Skyrim's. Honestly, what is going on?

Play JC2 in 1080P. Then come back and tell me the tree LOD doesn't look like crap. Also, that's just what the Avalanche engine does. Creation is about making everything look good, even up close. Go play and watch up to a texture or a model. Their textures are nasty, once you get close enough, even when maxed out.

Avalanche does big scale, Unreal is small scale.

Creation and Cryengine are the two main engines that successfully marry big and small scale elements. Oh, and the RED Engine.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:29 pm

no offense but Bethesda could have done much much better

How do you know the draw distance isn't going to be a lot better in the PC version?

Surely there will be sliders we can adjust that increase the draw distance beyond what is possible on the Xbox version.

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:02 am

I wouldn't put much store by what they show in the videos. In Morrowind, the early tech demos showed a view distance that was twice what the maximum was ingame.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:59 pm

A better idea of the draw distance.
http://i.imgur.com/DWju7.jpg

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:50 am

God, thanks for reminding me what unmodded Oblivion looks like. Back to shock therapy to purge those memories again... :sadvaultboy:Argh, again.... have you no mercy?Seriously, the draw distances look amazing. Only Just Cause 2 has more amazing ones.

I still TODAY play vanilla Oblivion on the 360, to me Skyrim will be great, I also play RDR and think for the other stuff in Skyrim, quests, people/dialogue, equipment ect... Bethesda did a great job on the amount of time on graphics/draw distance and focused on other things more important.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:48 am

RDR is pretty much all grass. That is why it's so easy for them to have such a large render distance because without it they would barely have anything to look at. I would take the Skyrim render over the RDR one any day and before anyone comments yes I have played RDR. I don't understand why you expect it to be magnificent. I would if it was being done on a next gen console but it's not, don't understand why people expect so much detail in every single thing when it's on an Xbox.

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:06 am

this discussion is rather pointless. from the video we can see that the draw distance for mountains and obviously dragons is huge and quite detailed for the distance. still all videos look like complete crap ...dont know why g4,ign,spike,gamespot...etc recorded it in such a low quality...or maybe bethesda pre recorded it like that? i dont know? also: we dont know from what building stage of the game the demo was taken. rumors are the footage was taken from a feb. or jan. build. fact is we dont know. anyway bethesda still has A LOT of time to add low LOD 2D grass/bush meshes for the distance.

by the way for everyone who didnt hear the rumor/news yet. it seems that a microsoft is working in coorporation with crytek on a new console. source: http://www.videogamer.com/news/xbox_720_likely_at_e3_2012_crytek_on_board_2.html

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:17 am

What I found more impressive is that the distant land doesn't look like crap http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2973/oblivion201006120538249.jpg.

I agree that Oblivion's looks bad, but it doesn't look that bad when I play Oblivion. What platform are you running Skyrim on and if it's the PC version, what settings do you have the game on?

Anyway, I do agree that Skyrim's looks far better and Oblivion's was bad.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:55 pm

Very nice

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:08 pm

That is true. It's called low-poly. I still think it looks great though in RDR. I'd much more prefer low-poly grass (if done in a good way) in Skyrim if it meant that grass distance could be like 4-5 times bigger as in Red Dead Redemption. I also think that the grass itself in Skyrim looks pretty bad artistically. Bad textures and not very nice models, even though they are "deep" and not low-poly. Looks unnatural.

And the bushes are still very detailed, more detailed than in Skyrim I'd say.
There's also tons of rocks and trees (or cactuses) that is rendered, as well as there being zero cell seperation.

All in all, I think what it comes down to most is how well the developers are at optimizing things. From all the experiences of past BGS games as well as games from other developers, I think that Bethesda isn't that great on technology and stuff and that that is the main reason behind it all.

Well, why don't they put the low polly 2-D meshes in the distance and replace it with the more detailed 3-D renders as you approach, even if that means bringing the draw distance, the transition between the two, closer? At least then the transition might not be so jarring. Could something along those lines work?

Because I agree with you that it looks terrible right now. I'd actually EVEN prefer RDR level of detail on close objects over Skyrim's high LOD at close range if it meant getting rid of that horrible draw distance for grass. Maybe that's just me. I find the short draw distance for grass much more jarring. At least RDR has visual consistency. You know what I mean? Hopefully that wouldn't be necessary though, and that a compromise like the one I suggested would work. I like Skyrim's higher level of detail, but not at the expense of terrible draw distance.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:16 pm

I agree with this.

I hate when people complain about graphics/draw distance like it's the most important thing in the world.

But, with a game like Oblivion or Skyrim, I think it is important. In games like this, you are often looking to immerse yourself in a fantasy world. Fantasy worlds that can achieve decent, or greater quality graphics receive a plus in immersion.

And as a side note: Oblivion had decent graphics. It wasn't all crap.

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:20 am

where are people getting the idea that this game draws everything..........it doesnt and you can clearly see it in the demo. you could see the white tower from everywhere in oblivion, does that mean oblivion had awesome draw distances. no, all it means is they have taken a few select large buildings or landscape features and flagged them to be on all the time. their are more in skyrim than in oblivion but the grass pop in is still very noticable in skyrim. im just hoping they have a grass setting in the ini like oblivion had, so that i dont have to put up with the console look.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:32 pm

But, with a game like Oblivion or Skyrim, I think it is important. In games like this, you are often looking to immerse yourself in a fantasy world. Fantasy worlds that can achieve decent, or greater quality graphics receive a plus in immersion.

And as a side note: Oblivion had decent graphics. It wasn't all crap.

i totally agree, yes graphics arent the only thing that matter...but we are talking about and TES game here. AAA title. in those games everything matters a lot. and if one component fails...everything "kinda" fails. just let me give you an example . the movie avatar (not the airbender movie, i mean the one with the na'vi). it had INCREDIBLE visual effects. i would say its the best looking movie in a long time...the story was "okay" not incredible. but since the graphics were so amazing they also "pushed" the story to be amazing and overall the movie was amazing.

and everyone please stop saying "oblivion was so horrible"...when oblivion came out most people were like. "oh ma gawwwwd, looks so amazing". give oblivion the credit it deserves.

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:41 am

I'm finding the draw distance in Skyrim to be greater than the Draw distance in Real Life... as I percieve it, at least.

And that goes for the grasses.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:20 pm

BTw...with that second picture of the map: the starting point is wrong. It should be closer to the green point that says "first screen here". There's no way the character walked that far in 100 meters

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:27 pm

A better idea of the draw distance.
http://i.imgur.com/DWju7.jpg

That's interesting, because I can't imagine that they would be able to draw all NPCs and creatures for such a huge distance. Unless I'm overestimating the distance. Maybe the dragons are an exception that they can be rendered at a larger distance, because you'll never see many at once and they're nice skyecandy?

I agree that Oblivion's looks bad, but it doesn't look that bad when I play Oblivion. What platform are you running Skyrim on and if it's the PC version, what settings do you have the game on?

They added a 'noise' kind of texture to the distant land to make it look better. It came with the 1.2 patch, that screenshot was made before that I assume. It's not my screenshot but the guy in the thread I got it from said he was using maximum settings, and that looks about right for Oblivion 1.0.

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:32 am

i thought this world will be small, but seeing the pic above....gets me excited again!

but on topic:
it looks awesome! With mods the limits will be pushed far from beeing playable by todays standarts, i bet.
Even in oblivion there is one mod, it lets you see NEARLY every object in distance. And it laggs like hell!
with skyrim this will be beyond crazyy....

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:20 pm

Draw distance has been improved when it comes to people and creatures but the grass seems to act almost entirely the same disappearing only twenty feet away.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:42 pm

If the draw distance for things like grass, bushes, etc was considerably higher I would be 100% happy with Skyrims visuals.

That's 100% just console business. On PC even in Oblivion you could set the grass draw distance to far enough that it was impossible to see it popping in. That was one of the things that really glared at me in the video when he got to the tundra, the lush 3D grass just stops after like 20 feet, pretty lame.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:03 pm

Honestly the grass draw distance is perfectly acceptable if you think of everything skyrim is drawing when you look at say Whiterun. http://i.imgur.com/YYvJk.jpg
In this picture you have to think, the engine has a lot of to draw, from the walls to the buildings inside the walls and the castle. I would assume, that the engine is actually drawing all of the buildings inside the walls fully.
Then the engine is drawing the mountains behind the fortress, and the mountains that you see. So if Todd is correct about his engine and it does draw EVERYTHING that you see, then you can see why they would have to skimp a little on the grass.
But personally I am not worried about it because I will just adjust the .ini file and shoot the draw distance way up. It might actually start taxing my amd 6950 a little woot!

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:56 pm

I very much like the draw distance.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:53 pm

They added a 'noise' kind of texture to the distant land to make it look better. It came with the 1.2 patch, that screenshot was made before that I assume. It's not my screenshot but the guy in the thread I got it from said he was using maximum settings, and that looks about right for Oblivion 1.0.

I just took these myself. I'm running 1.2 on Ultra High(ini tweaked) with QTP3, RAEVWD, 2x LOD textures, 4x AA and 4x AF.

http://i54.tinypic.com/rifdrr.png
http://i52.tinypic.com/2i9mo3r.png
http://i56.tinypic.com/2sb3nli.png

Personally, I think that vanilla Skyrim on the 360 looks better than my modded OB.

» Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:09 pm

What I found more impressive is that the distant land doesn't look like crap http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2973/oblivion201006120538249.jpg.

That doesn't look too shabby for 2006...

» Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:11 am

With all the discussion of the graphics of the game, I have noted that the amazing draw distance for this game has gone largely unreconized, So I have put up my own pictures to demonstrate.http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg600/scaled.php?server=600&filename=skyrimdistanceshot.jpg&res=mediumBest draw distance shot I could get, note that you can clearly see the dragon chilling on the stone arch, now lets put it in scale with a modified map orginally made by Luke Skyrimmerhttp://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg703/scaled.php?server=703&filename=mapcomparison.jpg&res=mediumThe green dots represent the rough locations of the dragon and the player in the first screenshot.Again, Thank you Luke for your original map.

Awesome, but if that is the distance I get a little worried makes me think SKyrim will be smaller then.

What I found more impressive is that the distant land doesn't look like crap http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2973/oblivion201006120538249.jpg.

True

The grass, bush and plant plant view distance is really low and we can see that throughout the whole demo. We can see it at the very start of the demo, as several bushes pop-up like 30 meter in front of the player.Most notable is the short view distance of grass in the tundra scene, where it just... looks plain awful. It's just as bad as it was in Oblivion. I think is what most people, including myself, are disappointed about.What you mentioned was the view distance of dragons. In most games (including Oblivion), there are seperate view distances for different kinds of objects. Characters/creatures is often seperated as one view distance itself.It's great that we can see dragons from so far away, and in my opinion I'd say it's also essential unless we want dragons to svck in the game.In addition, we can also see a few big landscape pop-ups in the demo, kind of like in Oblivion.We also have to consider that the real purpose and "special thing" of the "new" Creation engine is to "draw everything". It was because of this Bethesda didn't choose the id Tech 5 engine that Rage uses. We should therefore expect the draw distance to be huge for everything, yet we see pretty big flaws as I mentioned.Other games have done this before on the console, and those games have even had an open world like Skyrim. A good example is Red Dead Redemption, which got much, much bigger view distance for everything (especially grass & bushes) in comparison to Skyrim.Therefore, I'd say the "draw distance" is pretty disappointing in Skyrim, seeing that the real purpose and "special thing" of the Creation engine is to "draw everything".

You gotta remmeber though that RDR lacks many aspects and has probobly less than half the content in it that Skyrim will. So they can spend more time and power on graphics than Beth.