the brotherhood goals were clear from fallout 1 technology is the first then recruits. but the brotherhood were always willing to destory a threat , enclave or in the case of new vegas the legion. the brotherhood would helped the NCR with the legion in exchange to set up a outpost.
NCR were never really as big as the brotherhood in fallout 2 infact the the vault city was bigger then the NCR in fallout. so how does the most advance group die out ? even if there was a civil war between east and west BOS, they have alway had a strong connection with the wasteland.

Namely because the Lyon's Pride is really just an exaggeration of Bethesda's interpretation of BOS (this same goes with the Outcast). Their "intention" is really just knight and shining armor/boy scout fit in a "good" vs "evil" plot which practically contrast the overall view of the whole organization onto itself. I cannot really see them as BOS at that point.

As for the "survivor in NCR", fat chance. If the Lyon's Pride were in the West Coast position, the condition would likely be the same or worst because the West Coast BOS were already helping with the NCR before all hell broke loose with each. Its just that the BOS were worrying on how NCR handles technology and might predict that if they overuse it or were not that "responsible" enough with technology, then bad things may happen if they use it incorrectly. This led with the BOS being stingy with sharing their toy. This, combined with the fact that NCR, becoming a nation seeing that their neighbor group has powerful armor, weapon, and technology, kind of lead to the war with each other.

I am a fan of Lyons Brotherhood more than the western.. Honestly... i find western BOS more of an extremist Religious Faction ( with technology being their Religion).

Its just not knight in shining Armor, Lyons was smart enough to figure out if they did not take new recruits and help from the locals the whole place would have been over run by super mutants. Western BOS will prolly die of in a couple of decades due to lack of recruits and continuous aggressive attitude..

If Lyons Brotherhood was in Mojave, the situation would be nowhere as bad as it is now.. The E-BOS ideology and W-BOS ideology is far different... and another fact is the E-BOS went through lot more trouble than W-BOS. NCR is nowhere as nearly as powerful as the Enclave in power armor and the Numerous Super Mutants. If Lyons was in Mojave, things would be pretty much like what Veronica wanted it to be, not mentioning Lyons would never have done the Helios blunder in the first place...

But it's not a matter of what faction is "better" for the future of mankind or whatever. If I was in the gameworld, then sure, I'd most likely like the eastern guys more as well. But it's what interesting for the game.

Bethesda had an extremely isolationist faction send a large number of people way across the entire country to salvage tech, only to have a group splinter off (still called BoS for whatever reason) and become basically saviours of the wasteland. And of course, this is the group that the main character is work with so we can all get our hero fantasy fulfilled.

It's the same hero stuff we're forced to swallow from most RPGs (and here we have Three Dog screaming it in our ear). But the worst thing of all is that they took one of the more interesting factions and made this splinter group basically the shining knights of the wasteland. It's all there to enforce a power trip for the player. What's supposed to represent the original Brotherhood are now the 'Outcasts', who are basically faceless and now dress in ominous more evil-looking Power Armors.

EDIT: I don't even think all parts of it are bad. For example, I found Lyons and his doubts about what he's doing to be pretty compelling. But overall it's just such a weird and non-sensical thing. There is no doubt in my mind that the inclusion of the BoS (such as it is) in F3 was simply them needing a face for the game, something for the player to go "hell yeah" and hey, the BoS have always been cool-looking so let's put them in. I very much doubt the reason to bring them along was a deep desire to further explore the intricacies of the faction or "further the lore" or whatever.

But thats just your opinion, there are plenty maybe even more people in this forum who like the E-BOS better than the W-BOS. Even in the Mojave Wasteland you can see the younger generation of BOS Knights and Initiates are starting to have a more open approach then the narrow minded BOS...

I know Many people like the W-BOS Ideology, but how do you expand the game and bring BOS in future fallout series without explaining how they got there and where they came from... Now since E-BOS DC wasteland is Secure future DLC/games can expand maybe to the commonwealth and other interesting places without the BOS actually being spread thin...

EDIT: it really isn't weird and nonsensical, with an organization like Brotherhood and their ideology its only a matter of time before people within started having different views, and considering how Lyons purged pit and traveled all the way out to the east, its understandable for him to have Empathy with the people in the wasteland and Casdin to be more colder(as someone above mentioned)

Which is pretty much what the BOS are usually all about. Lyons' Pride can never be like this and therefore, are not BOS.


Well except West Coast BOS do accept recruit time after time. There were not really aggressive as they are more conservative in their attack or rather the "wait and attack" approach. Heck, they drove many West Coast Mutants (whom are far more deadly and organize than their East Coast muties) out of Southern California without killing too many of them in a canon ending of Fallout 1.


Again, Lyons Pride would be in the same, if not worst, situation as the West Coast BOS with the NCR. Even if they might share their toys with the NCR more often than they should, the NCR would eventually target them like they targeted the West Coast BOS because having a highly technological organization within ya power hungry nation is a bad thing. Lyons Pride cannot get more recruit and are stuck within enemies territory. Also remember the BOS are outnumber 1 to 20 NCR in casualty. NCR's power lies in organization, their troop rank, and their number.

As for Helios blundering, how would one know Lyon would even think of the same thing if they were attack in Helios One? They cannot recruit, they cannot really help people out in the wasteland because the NCR is technically doing this, and in battle, is practically survivor trait that they would fight if they have to.

And if ya trying to say along the line that Lyon's Pride can hold off Enclave and the Numerous Super Mutants, keep in mind that they were already struggling or losing with both factions without the PC's or Liberty Prime intervention. Without these two element, and the fact the split with the Outcast took a good number of fighters out, the Lyon's Pride would have been gone.


Ya mean Fallout 3/Bethesda fan's opinion. It not really fact that "plenty maybe even more people in this forum who like the E-BOS better than the W-BOS" as well. Also, explain the "a more open approach then the narrow minded BOS". The way I see it, they cannot recruit with the NCR at their asses and the only logically way to one up the NCR is find technology to meet their short end of men and/or hide.


By playing Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 to see their origin. By reading the Fallout Bible and Fallout Van Buren and how that game give an glimpse to why they are in a mess with NCR in New Vegas.


I can agree that different ideas within an organization can spread and adept, but by all means, the way Lyon's Pride did this is pure exaggeration of the original ideal of the BOS to begin with. They cannot be technically BOS at that point.

BOS is about collecting technology, and trying to preserve tech form the locals, you can see how they failed in that miserably considering Van grafs got all the energy weapons including pulse gun, they alone could kill entire W-BOS all by themselves . A change of ideology of an organization does not change its identity. Even otherwise its only a partial change of ideology which is in terms of how BOS should deal with the locals in the area . E-BOS did was correct that flaw in the ideology and look beyond Military technology




If you play through Entire New Vegas and look at the ending cutscene actually talks about W-BOS following an aggressive personality leading to its ultimate end...




First, we never know if Lyons would share tech with the NCR more often than the W-BOS would> if you would listen to how Veronica wanted BOS In the Mojave to function then you would understand how Lyons would function. Lyons BOS would never end up with so many enemies and in such a bad state even though a war certain with the NCR..



Lyons would never have gone to Helios in the first place, even if Lyons went there he would never have got his troops killed just to get that place working.The W-BOS Eldar during that Battle was a Scribe turned Eldar and not a Paladin. Its Obvious not a single Paladin even in W-BOS agreed to him.



It was Lyons Policies which led him to recruit the "lone wanderer" in the first place and get him to work for him. About the giant robot, you think Mojave brotherhood could fix a robot while they could not even detect and delete a computer virus ?




What is wrong with fallout3 Bethseda Fan's opinion, are they less credible by any chance ? An opinion is an opinion may it be old school player or the new players, and the fact is that fallout 3 has got larger player base than fallout 1 and 2.... There are plenty of people out there who are clearly dissatisfied with the NCR and also the NCR is right now pre occupied trying to fight the Legion. NCR is spread thin considering how lightly defended Helios itself is and how the situation at Prim was. So..no..NCR aren't up their asses




This is not exaggeration, it was bound to happen Lyons E-BOS was able to stand out till the end because of their policies. If ever MC Namera or some other Elder was in DC wasteland they would have hidden in the pentagon till the entire wasteland was over run with super mutants, then you would see the Enclave landing on the purifier installing the FEV virus and killing everyone and everything including the BOS soldiers... All this time am pretty sure Mc Nammara would have not been able to do anything...

Having technology is one thing but the ability to tweak it, reverse engineer other tech, and having a wide knowledge of the said technology in and out and a wide range of computer skill is truly another. The Van Graffs just have these weapons. It become questionable as to how they obtain it or maintain it. I can safely say that at one point, Van Graff were at contact and dealing with the Enclave just like their rival Mafia, Salvatores of New Reno, or raided a Facility like the possible route the Wright Mafia did with the Sierra Army Depot.


Bitterness from the battle of Helios One. Even after the truce (or none in the Wild Card ending), they are still collecting tech just to be sure they don't get back stab.


Ya, I listen to Veronica alot but that her view of the overall event. Remember this include current conflict with the NCR. Also remember she is stunned by the BOS for many reason. Even if they went boyscout, the NCR would still trigger the war with the BOS in fear that they are an organization with very high tech stuff and knowledge, living close to the NCR doorstep.


I can agree that an Elder went delusional during the Helios Battle but its doesn't mean that Lyon (in which the same Lyon was order to go to the East) wouldn't do any better at Helios. Death on both side would still occur.


Lyons Policies practically show they are not as powerful or as strong when there was a split with the Outcast. The way BOS handle thing, they can do it on their own without any PC help. This fails along the line with Lyon's Pride (even the Outcast can hold it in together without the PC help). The computer virus is a recent event when they were bunking in that safe house. Practically, this virus might be a virus they never encounter before (but I can assume they would, and could, partition it if given the time to do so), which can be said if the Virus were to hit the East Coast, it would likely be the same result. And yes, I would bet they (Western BOS) could fix the Robot if given the opportunity.


My rip is basically how Beth handle the game and how many players consider themselves "true" fans of Fallout despite the fact they only play Fallout 3 and not know the history of whole game itself or how the whole game handle itself rather than Beth's view. There are "more" players in Fallout 3 because its targeted to a mix of old Fallout Fans, console players, and FPS shooters. I usually just don't see the number without considering all the factor into it.

As for recruitment, I meant at NCR homebase, where the West Coast BOS resided. I would not be surprise if the Mojave BOS could recruit people living in the Mojave but many that were dissatisfied with NCR occupation are already with their own factions, not to mention that they know that NCR did brought trade and security in the Mojave.


In my view, it is. Lyons policy only work when the PC was there to help. Anyone else would likely be dead or at a stalemate. And if the West Coast BOS were in the Lyon's Situation, chances are, they would found out that DC is really just a crap hole and more likely go somewhere after a few raid in a depot else rather than waste their time with people who more or less care less of the BOS in their neighborhood, whether Lyon or not.

The very fact they they have these hight tech weapons defeats the purpose of the brotherhood trying to protect technology form the locals. If Brotherhood does not even know a weapon like pulse gun exists and such a weapon already got itself in the hands of the van grafs, then its obvious the Brotherhood has failed. Brotherhood have flawed policies




They aint collecting tech, they are holed up in their bunker and the three expeditions Mc Nemarra set has already ended up in deaths




Even if NCR would trigger the war with the Brotherhood Lyons would not have gotten the Brotherhood in such an Embarrassing position..




Lyons was a paladin not a Scribe, Its obvious he would have retreated at the first sighn of trouble, So many lives would never have been lost..




They are not as powerful and as strong before the Enclave is defeated, though after that Its obvious that Brotherhood has made a Lotta allies and lots of tech form the destroyed Enclave Air Force Base.. With PC help anyone could do anything, hell even the entire NCR could be killed all by himself, PC should not be put into the picture. But the fact is W-BOS would never have recruited PC to do as much operations for the BOS as E-BOS have




When you have different people making a game, you will get a small difference in story line, Its just better to accept it than whine about it(no offence), Personally, i like the E-BOS Brotherhood and outcast faction...



DC was nothing but a craphole, The pentagon was filled with advanced tech a large amounts of T-45d power armor, thats how they got that power armor from,DC was the capital, so its obvious there would be huge amounts of tech in the region. W-BOS would have based themselves in pentagon and started operating just like Lyons, the only difference is they would have avoided the super mutants untill its too late and when the Enclave lands, they would have ended up in Pentagon in a base unable to go anywhere , since it would be surrounded by muties...

Also to notice is W-BOS is rather stupid enough to stick to their codex and narrow philosophy even if it means death of the brotherhood, Lyons knew what he needed to do to survive and was not just about saving every last bit human being on DC. I would go with a group who is flexible enough to change their policies to handle the situation and do what they need to do to survive..

-Well except if ya play the previous one, ya should know by now that while the Western BOS obtain and secure the ideology of technology, they were also the one that share its technology right at the beginning of things with the NCR. Their way of movement and iconic Power Armor is still recognize by many people throughout the land and they are still consider one of the top high tech organization around (and they would let ya know that).



-Oh ya, I play it. In some ending, they got Helios Back and just hustle anyone with technology they don't deem right to use. Then the one with the truce with NCR just get them on patrol duty but already got their Power Armor back that was taken from NCR. Then there the ending where the NCR were retreating and rather than just kill them, the BOS just let them go and went on getting more tech. Does not really explain why ya comment like that.



-Naw, the situation is basically unavoidable in some cases, whether whom in charge. Tell me, how do ya think Lyon can steer away from a growing nation like that of NCR?



-Not if the mission told him to stay. If his mission is to secure Helio, he would do with. And the end result would most like that there would be killing involved, just like what happen when the Elder was in charge there at the time of Helios.



-I am pretty sure everyone on the wasteland DC would care less as to what the BOS did (which is really just the PC doing) and with their distribution with water, is shows. Then it comes with the problem with the PC. Basically stands, Lyons (and practically anyone in Fallout 3) become too dependent with the PC in order for their survival to last in DC. In Movaje, it is more likely that things can still run even without the existence of the PC.



-The different here is that the thing amount that Beth put forward to in their game is very obvious and has a history of that. When people back than complain about things in Morrowind as that why is X useless or why I have to walk all the way there or why can't I hit things or the classical "where dwemer puzzle cube" (ya wouldn't believe how common problem this cube brought into this forum many years ago). This lead to Beth "fixing" the problem to create Oblivion. They "fix" it but in means that really stir the whole forum around, in many case they when backward in their "progress". After listening to the fan complaint, they "fix" many thing from Oblivion to Fallot 3. In this case, it would be true and I would agree that many mechanics were look into. They storyline and lore write still passes through from Oblivion, however.

What I am saying is, I am not whining. I am complaining and if possible, challenging the idea as to why it happen. And from the sound of it, ya not liking what I have to say of this whole topic, even on the Lyon's Pride or Beth's handle with lore.



-Considering all logic that is presented in DC (the main one being there is really no form of economic other than slavery and the water is really, really bad), it is most likely they would grab the stuff and leave. And in theory, if they were to stay, the West Coast BOS are in full force rather than split and would most likely put the mutant threat at bay. The Enclave would be an interesting encounter.

And like I say before, they are in a position where the only logical way in dealing with the position they are in now with the NCR is really hide or find tech to one up them. How would YOU deal with a whole nation you are now consider an enemy to in a place where ya are born? I would doubt the Lyon would "knew" what to do in that position other then what it is already said (he get much more "freedom" in his path choosing in the East, not so in the West).

This Quote and reply thing is tiring especially after a whole days work... Your opinion / my opinion Obvious difference lets just respect each others opinion..

As per what could/would have happened if Lyons or W-BOS would have stayed is speculation/assumption, There are too many Variables to be taken into account to make a rather reasonable prediction on their actions..

Just out of interest, how official are the events in tactics?
I really liked some of the stuff in there, the Reavers in particular.

Honestly, I am more a fan of the Eastern BoS. Granted they may have changed their views from the ones of the BoS back in California, can we truly say it is bad? I am not one to often curse on this forum, but [censored] all of this 'well thats not how the Brotherhood should be' Boo hoo. So people change. Bethesda did not simply go 'GONNA CHANGE CANON' Lyons was just as rigorous and staunchly technological when they first arrived in the D.C. Region. Their cleansing of The Pitt when they stripped it of working tech proves this. But over times, through age or by realization of the life of those outside of The Brotherhood, Lyons realized just to what extent the BoS's technology could do for Humanity, a concept considered unthinkable by any standards of the Western Elders. But what they do will progress humanity severely, and we ALL know the D.C. Region needs progress, they are lightyears behind NCR territory, and the restarting of Project Purity and their claiming of vast Enclave technology and Adams Airforce Base may end up consequentially start up humanity in the region, or lead to BoS dictatorship (Unlikely from what we've seen, but at this point, who knows what could happen)

I took this as a little bit of information on what happened between the Eastern BOS and the Outcasts in the years between F3 and FNV. It's perfectly believable they finally came to blows over their beliefs, especially if Lyons decided to take a more direct approach to aiding the people of the wastes. This is going in my personal canon until something else contradicts it.




Really? Did we play the same game? Even ignoring the whole virus thing, the BOS in FNV was pretty much screwed without PC help. I found all the expeditions he sent out to find the parts they needed, and lived to tell about it. I then went out and actually procured all the parts they needed, ensuring that they could go on living. Even in Fallout 2, the BOS tasks the PC with stealing the plans for the Vertibird. Not exactly the pinnacle of self reliance there. But that's the nature of a game. If the groups were able to handle everything on their own without PC help, there would be nothing for the player to do.


I like both factions though. There's no reason they can't both exist in the Fallout world. They're just two sides of the same coin.

-At some point, without forceful interaction, the Mojave BOS would simply still just survive and mind their own business. In the Wild Card Ending, that what they did and even reclaim Helios One. The present of the PC just speed things up a bit. Even if we go with the Legion ending, the weaken NCR still has to deal with the West Coast BOS that is still fighting with them back in California.

That say, it is easier for the BOS to find someone "resourceful" to do their suicidal bidding rather than just sent one of their troop. That is why the PC got a trip to the Glow/Navarro in the first place. It helps that both places yield a crap load of rewards and doing these quests granted huge trust to the BOS. It is worth noting that these two quest are optional.

If anything, the Lone Wanderer is the very lifeline of the Lyon's Pride existence. Without the Lone Wanderer intervention, they would not get the purifier to get the local's "favor", be in a stalemate with the Super Mutant, and in some cases, lose to the Enclave if ever they went one on one.


-The problem comes from the fact that the Lyon's Pride is BOS only by name at that point of the game. It would generally confuse people as to regard of the overall idea as to why the BOS exist in the Fallout universe in the first place; as self preserve, high technological cult with its main purpose of technological preservation rather than the Bethesda's clique idea of "Knight and Shining Armor". That say, I would only refer to them as a different faction, the Lyon's Pride. They are never the BOS they claimed to be.

I'm going to have to go ahead and refer you to your own statement.



The E-BOS didn't need the local's favor. No where is it mentioned or implied that they even desire the local's favor. They just decided to help fight the super mutants because it was the right thing to do. That act alone is going to earn them some fame, enough to trade or gain recruits as needed.

The Lone Wanderer found out that Vault 87 was the source of the super mutants, but it's not like the E-BOS would never have figured that out. He just sped things up a bit.

Liberty Prime was the deciding factor in the battle against the Enclave, not the Lone Wanderer. The Lone Wanderer didn't even do anything in getting him up and running either.

It's the same situations. The PC in not "needed", but in all cases they're sent on some pretty important missions for the sake of gameplay.

I think this shows a massive misunderstanding of the EBOS. Yes, they kill mutants and try to act "Good", but they have not abandoned their mission to research, collect, maintain and create new knowledge and technologies, they've just added an extra priority to the list. Case in point, the search for Pre-War books - no vaule to a group of do-gooder warriors, but to a brotherhood trying to collect and preserve knowledge....

Exactly. Their mission was to head to DC and find any caches of knowledge and technology. Unless their orders included a "don't talk to anyone or kill anything" adendum, they're still following their mission. Which is exactly why they were never booted from the BOS. The Elders back in Lost Hills may not have agreed 100% with their methodology, but they were still following their prime directive.

Though the problem tend to be the fact the PC in Fallout 3 is always railway'd to the Lyon's Pride, whether s/he want to or not. Its only speed things up for the other BOS because simply, they don't really need the PC at all. Not so for the Lyon's Pride.

While it is true that Lyon's Pride don't need the local's favor but at the same time, that is pretty much how they get replacement with all the dead or deserted members of the Pride use to have, not to mention trades with caravan. As for the Super Mutant threat, its just so happen that what the PC is looking for happens to be in the hotspot of the Super Mutant. But even then, I don't think it even bother that the Lyon's Pride would not be able to find the hotspot when they are too busy delivering water all over the place. If anything, they just ask ya to get blood sample instead.

Then it comes to Liberty Prime, the only reason the Lyon's Pride did not lose alot of more men then they should has in any battle with the Enclave. They become too relied to that thing that they are willing to try and rebuild it, which I doubt they have the technology or even a blueprint/manual with the require parts to do so. When Liberty Prime get blown up, they immediately fall back to the PC for helping them again.


Though all at the same time, their "action" of trying to act "good" to the point of the end of the (anti)climatic battle with the Enclave overshadowed their true intention as to why the BOS sent a expeditionary group there in the first place. Lyon's vision of thing does not really help in the matter, either.

The storyline in Fallout 3 is very linear, I admit that. If forces you work with the BOS because that's the only path the story can take. But that doesn't mean in the hypothetical world where the Lone Wanderer never came by to help them they would utterly fail. In fact, you can decide not to help them if you really want. Just be a Lone Wanderer in action as well as name. Explore the wastes, scavenge every last goodie from every last bombed out shelter. There's no end to the game that way, but there's also no time limit set on "help the BOS or else they die."



Again, simply helping fight the super mutants will earn them enough favor to trade and recruit. They're doing that before the Lone Wanderer ever shows up. Also, since the Lone Wanderer isn't there to help them and they don't bother getting the water purifier up and running, they don't have any water to deliver so they will still have plenty of time to find the source of the super mutants.



So you doubt that the place where Liberty Prime was stored and being worked on pre-war would have the blueprint/manual someplace? That's exactly the place it would be kept. And even if there is no manual, the BOS is kinda dedicated to studying technology, understanding how it works, and repairing/maintaining it.

Even in a world where Liberty Prime wasnt being built under the pentagon, I'd still expect there to have been blueprints, project proposals and status reports there when the bombs fell - its the centre of the US military establishment after all; just as I'm sure the real world pentagon knows what DARPA's doing (after all, thats where the folks that have the money bags sit).

But doesn't help the fact that how the game show. No matter what, the PC would end up with the Lyon's Pride if s/he willing to do the main quest.

In all cases, without the PC existence, the Lyon's Pride would eventually just go somewhere else rather than staying and trying to kill all Super Mutant and divert back to the BOS usual self. This would be the more logical approach.


But then again, the new recruits are getting their asses kick left and right when they are fighting with the super mutants, even before the PC comes along. I would assume that in any case that the radio station would be heavily damage with that mutant behemoth showing up. As for the purifier, it goes back to saying that without the PC existence, they would just leave the place. There really no point of staying in DC after accumulating some technology there.


Repairing it does not mean building it from scraps. They found it. This goes back with saying blueprint/manual with the require parts of rebuilding it. "Judging" Prime's build, I would assume that many parts are custom build and the mechanical behind of making moving around or having a huge power source to make it move at all.

People keep saying teh EBoS are stupid because the BoS dont help people. GROUPS CHANGE, thats is all Im saying. For Now

"Tell me about the super mutants."

"My boy, you've learned more about them in the short time I've know you than I've learned in twenty years of fighting them." - Elder Lyons on Super Mutants, after you tell him about Vault 87 and ask about muties.

The Lyons Brotherhood has had 20 years to find the source of the mutants and destroy it. Instead, they wage a war of attrition that the Brotherhood has never been in a position to fight. The best thing to do would be to focus on reconnaissance and find the source, then use your superior technology and personal skill to strike that location and smash it. At which point, then you can clean up the super mutants, who now have no means of replenishing their numbers.

Of course, the Lyons Brotherhood also ignored the factories in The Pitt, rather than carting them up and shipping them to DC with them.

Now, I personally like the Eastern and Midwestern Brotherhoods more than I like the Western and Mojave chapters, but there's some problems with how they're written. Maybe it's because Bethesda didn't put much thought into the writing, but the Lyons Brotherhood is consistently written as pretty dumb.



Dr. Li was instrumental in getting Prime walking again. No LW = Li captured/killed by Enclave in the tunnels.

Not the BOS. As Veronica will testify.