Well I'm kinda curious to know now that 3 years has passed, is there any news of the BoS or the Outcasts mentioned in new vegas? Also as a side not, I would like to state that I liked the fallout 1 and 2 BoS but favored the Fo3 brotherhood more up untill I came into contact with the BoS in NV last night for the first time, and I like the way they run, and now I've taken a favoring to the west coast BoS and the outcasts more... weird IK? I still like the fallout 3 brotherhood a lot though. I'm kinda conflicted, although it makes me curious to know more about the BoS chapter in california and the ones in other parts of the country.. now technically since the U.S. annexed canada, there's that entire part of the U.S they could be in, no? This also raises my interest in the Enclave more then before, I know that there is the ones in Chicago, but I don't know if they are still going or what? And Whitley sent ED-E to the Navaro outpost which makes me think they're still relatively active. Well this got rather long winded and split off into different topics, so discuss!

guys? any sort of input would be good.

My input? I hate how they portrayed BOS as these bravado humanity crusaders-white knights in the shining armor in F3. Totally castrated the faction and strayed REALLY far from the original concept IMO. Bleh.

As for the question, I don't think I remember in NV anyone mentioning the East coast BOS. Could be just me, I tend to forget stuff real quick. :cryvaultboy:

Now I would have also loved to see the reaction of the BoS to whatever logs that ED-E was carrying, and to hear them for myself.

I dont remember there being any mention... The WBOS is a little too tied up in its own affairs to worry about whats going on with Lyon's expidition.

All of the BOS factions trace their roots to Mariposa military base, California. It is from mutiny and desertion there that the brotherhood's founders came from.

No, they aren't mentioned, at least from what I've seen from looking in the GECK. The Mojave Chapter isn't the main brotherhood chapter in the West so it makes sense that they wouldn't have much to say about the East Coast BOS.

ED-E is the only reference to the Capital Wasteland in the game but he only tells us some very very minor information about the Enclave.

If you talk to Veronica about the Brotherhood and helping people, she'll make an offhand reference to how one chapter had a civil war over the idea of helping people. That might be a reference to the Lyons/Outcast schism since they're the only Brotherhood chapter we know of who helps people. It's rather oblique a reference if it is though.

Yeah I'm aware the mojave chapter isn't the main one, and the Enclave thing wouldn't matter much because actually, the BoS and the Enclave arn't enemies! The only reason they were fighting on the east coast was because the enclave saw them as a threat, and the BoS did the same with them. They don't actually have any political quarrel either, and the west coast BoS and other factions consider the enclave dead and neutralized.

Oh! I totally didn't realize that reference if it is one, even though I have heard that from her too, huh, I'd hardly call it a civil war but more of a schism, but you know news and gossip and such get distorted via it being told from so many people and such.

It's a Tactics reference. The BoS had a schism over inducting new members, which is why the one group crossed the Rockies in the airships. That alone should have made the Brotherhood of Steel not be present in DC, but Bethesda has face-[censored] a lot of the canon.

If you're not familiar with the Brotherhood in Tactics, these airships crashed on the outskirts of Chicago. With no food or support, but having some decent numbers and all their high tech gear, the Brotherhood started offering protection to settlements and took taxes in labor and food. They're also pretty big on crucifying people who piss them off, though they do it on old school T-shaped frames instead of crosses.



They fight in Fallout 3 because 1) Bethesda lacked the imagination to create their own factions and put their own stamp on the brand, simply re-using and ruining the ideas of the first games and 2) Emil can't write.

I'm pretty sure Veronica's referring to the Outcasts and Lyons, actually.

IIRC the Tactics BoS never had a civil war, and we know the Outcasts sent messages to the west coast.

Also, I personally really enjoyed the role of the Brotherhood and Outcasts in Fallout 3. Game was fine. If Bethesda hadn't reused some classic factions, people would have complained that none of their favorite factions were in the game. Classic fans would still complain if they made all-new factions; it's basically a lose-lose for them.

@TheTutinator

Seriously? I don't hear people complaining about the lack of Enclave encounters in NV. Nor I hear complaining about the new factions.

[quote name='TheTuninator' date='05 November 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1288961752' post='16633831'
IIRC the Tactics BoS never had a civil war[/quote]

You remember wrong. It was very much the threat of a civil war until the Tactics BoS were sent on their mission by the elders. The outcasts and Lyons never had a civil war, either; just a disagreement. There's a literary technique called false narrator, and given the Brotherhoods lack of historical grounding for members Veronica is an example of that technique.

[quote]If Bethesda hadn't reused some classic factions, people would have complained that none of their favorite factions were in the game. Classic fans would still complain if they made all-new factions; it's basically a lose-lose for them.
[/quote]

Classic fans would not have complained, because the way the BoS and Enclave are included makes no [censored] sense. I'd rather have seen them take groups like the Talon mercenaries and Regulators and give them their own niche backstories, instead of just making them one-dimensional organizations that hunt you depending on your karma. It would have been neat to see Talon mercs using T-45d and basing themselves out of the Pentagon, and with the right writer they could have been the military arm of a very sinister organization. Then you could have the Regulators, outgunned but not outnumbered, with their morally ambiguous role of keeping the wastes clear of lawlessness while killing everyone they deem to be criminal. That lone suggestion is elegant, because it would have put a positive mark on the series for Bethesda, while not fixing what wasn't broken. You could even include the Enclave in this scheme; make them the ones who hired the Talon mercs so wastelanders could get themselves killed instead of valuable Enclave troopers.

Are you sure about that? I don't really remember the Tactics Brotherhood being big on helping people, except as a means to get the people to join the Midwestern Brotherhood. The context of the discussion with Veronica was, IIRC, "So the Brotherhood helps people with their knowledge, right?" "Ha, no. Err... There was one chapter who had a civil war over it though!"

And really, given how the Outcasts and Brotherhood hated each other (there's even a news entry with 3 dog that mentions the outcasts shooting at GNR because it's a Brotherhood outpost, IIRC), I could easily see them having a civil war.

On further thought, though, I can see that it does fit the Tactics Brotherhood as well, I suppose.



*Nods sagely.*

Though, and I feel somewhat dirty for saying this as someone who played the originals before FO3, I could sorta see why Lyons would start helping people out of the goodness of his heart. He was a veteran of the scourge of the Pitt, which was apparently pretty damn nasty before the Brotherhood purged the place. Casdin grew harder and colder, while Lyons started sympathizing with wastelanders, and over time (and seeing how completely pathetic the capital wasteland is to the thriving societies he's used to), he probably would have started going native.

Lyons was one of the few halfway decently written characters in the game, if not the only one... And even the weakest character in NV blows his writing out of the water.

Edit:



In the DLC suggestion threads, it seems like we can't go a day without some person coming in and saying "Enclave Invasion DLC!"

That and "Freeplay after the end!"

Don't those people realize how lame Freeplay is after you've already seen the ending slides? I mean, the only reason to play on in FO2 was to do lulzy stuff like abuse the hintbook and listen to the druggies talk about how you blew up the Enclave.

The Enclave are really only in two games out of about six. And in both they feature as the main bad guys after having been supposedly destroyed twice. On the other hand The Brotherhood of Steel have been featured in every single Fallout game to date and have only lost a single war, being able to avoid utter annihilation. See where I'm going here?

Might also be referring to the Chicago splinter group from Tactics. They were chosen to persue the remnants of the Master's Army because they lost the internal struggle over recruitment of "Locals" into the Brotherhood. So what you have is the west coast Brotherhood who for all intents and purposes is dying out. The midwest brotherhood who was, if not flurishing, is at least becoming a force to contend with while still holding most of the Brotherhood's Ideals other than recruitment and you have Lyons' group seemingly evolving into a force of change and advancement...using the technology and advances to a purpose rather than simply hoarding the knowledge. The outcasts are doomed to extinction just as their west coast bretheren are and for the same reason. Attrition.

Well worded and I felt the same way when comparing the Western BoS with the Eastern.

I'm positive. The Midwestern Brotherhood wasn't helping people to be nice; they were helping people in exchange for food, materiel and recruits.

Now, something I find interesting is that in Fallout 3, the head scribe says they don't get transmissions from the midwest Brotherhood anymore. And in New Vegas, the logs on ED-E say he comes from an Enclave outpost in Chicago.

My pet theory to wrap all this together is the Enclave wiped out the midwest Brotherhood, and taking over their production facilities is why Enclave armor looks suspiciously like Brotherhood Tactics armor in Fallout 3. Of course, I realize the reality is Bethesda just wanted to cram cool [censored] into their game with no logical reasoning behind it.

just to add to that - being the nice guy also helps lyons establish trade links and get advategous terms - people see it as in their best interest for the BOS to be there, shooting mutants and raiders.

If only Lyons had been head elder in the WBOS, Veronica would probably be a lot happier as Lyons is a peacemaker, the war with the NCR may not have happened, and the power of the "codex" lessened. The BOS might have even have found a place for themselves in the NCR.

Outcasts were the real Brotherhood arm on the East Coast.

The BoS are not knights in shining armor. They're generally opposed to some of the really awful bad guys (Mutants, Enclave) but it's a matter of self preservation, not some wild goal to save every toothless tribal in the wasteland.

And Veronica mentioned both groups (Midwest and East Coast) at one point when you talk to her (...pretty sure).

The reference to the civil war is the East Coast.

I remembered that, I just wasn't sure it fit the context or tone of the conversation with Veronica.I can see what you mean with it being the Tactics Brotherhood, but I'm not completely convinced yet.



You know, that's actually a pretty neat way to tie it all together. That's going into my personal canon until something contradicts it.

I never understood why is it people get so furious with the East Coast BoS , i mean they explained in the game that what Lyons is doing is not the BoS way and is going against the Codex and hated by large group for it [ Outcasts ] , he is no longer part of the main true BoS because they wont let that [censored] fly .. now its just his own personal little group " Lyon's BoS " like its called in the game not The BoS nor are they replacing The BoS. [ however i do think Lyon's BoS would probably survive the NCR more then the West Coast BoS since they would probably work together then go to war ]

IMO if the BoS stuck to their rigid standards they would be extinct by now. I for one liked what happened with BoS in FO 3 mainly because it shows that the people are human. For a group to survive for 200 years, the one thing they must do is adapt.

Exactly! It's not like Bethesda decided to rewrite the Brotherhood of Steel and say that Lyons was sent out to be the champion of the people. He was sent out to do exactly what the West-coast BoS do; recover and hoard advanced technology. During his journey East, he saw and did things that made him rethink some of the BoS doctrines and splintered off the main group (a group itself that splintered off the US Military 200 years ago). It's really not a hard concept to accept.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is one of the main things about Fallout 3 that I wish people would take the time to understand before accusing Bethesda of misinterpreting and effectively destroying Fallout lore. I'm a big fan of the original Fallout and its successors, but I have no problem with the events of the East Coast regarding the Brotherhood of Steel. After all, as stated above, there is a fairly good reason why the Brotherhood in D.C. are nothing like the Brotherhood back west. Granted, I wasn't sure what to make of the fact that the Brotherhood appeared on the East Coast at all - as also stated before, they probably shouldn't have made it there in the first place - but instead of proclaiming that it's just Bethesda ruining the lore, I would probably call it "progressing story". It's easy to take new, unexpected and possibly a tad contradicting events as slander when the story has been written by new people. It just really shouldn't stand in the way of enjoying the story and making judgements about it as an individual script.