What does Talos represent in the wheel if he represents anything at all. What everything actually changed with him becoming divine? I feel I'm missing all the consequences. If we take KOTN for example, he for some reasons allows you to go to the "spirit realm" whatever that is. If he's a new spoke, I'd say that'd have some dire ramification. If he's not then what? And why would he willingly sacrifice his own consciousness? (the divines aren't conscious from what I understand)

He's the hub. The nature of the divines (conscious vs. unconscious) is debateable.

sorry, double post. Why does it do that?! GRRRR.

Mundus is the hub, you can place Lorkhan there too. Talos is not represented in the Wheel and isn't of the same nature as the rest of the Divines. The other Divines were Aedra who became Earthbones, Talos was part of the Enantiomorph who ascended to godhood and gained a spot in the Divines. Note that 'Divines' is simply a classification in Cyrodiilic religion, not part of the metaphysics of the world... And who says that they're not conscious....

Yes that clicks but "something" changed in the general cosmological order when he ascended, the question is "what". I'm not sure about the Aedra's consciousness, but AFAIK they cannot act without an actor (I think even the prophet says this).

They smuggled the Missing God into the pantheon.
"This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other."
Now, the question that follows after aforementioned claim is: "How does one who brought a Dragon-Empire (Akatoshian) associate with the Missing God?" The answer is: Enantiomorph.

My friends,

Talos is the god of war and governance. (http://www.imperial-library.info/nine_divines/) Talos is "the victor". (See e.g. http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#18 and http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#19). Talos fortifies the Wheel of Convention, which means that it is Talos that binds souls to the plane(t) of Mundus. (See http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=findpost&hl=&pid=11571869) The elves despise Talos, which is nothing new; they despised Pelinal, Wulfharth, and Lorkhan before him.

Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

The Spokes aren't Spokes just because that's where the Aedric spirits go in the (Symbolic!) geometry, they go there because of their choices at Convention. (Or rather before, maybe.) Talos never cut off part of himself and leant it to Nirn: he sprung from the severed limbs and is tied there by his mundane origins.

An idea I heard of the other day was that no heroes, that is, PCs, had CHIM untile TES III AND I think Talos is also the god of Heroes, correct? Perhaps his apotheosis has some connection to that.

First off, it is not an established fact that every TES PC has CHIM. If that were the case, then Sheogorath has (and due to the illusionary nature of time) always had CHIM.

And secondly, if they did, the PC in all four TES games would have it.

The way I view it, the PCs personify the VERY idea of CHIM, with that whole "shaping the world you way you see fit," yada yada yada and so on. Thats why I made that comment.

But your statement brings me back to a place that I was at before: a while back, I made a statement about how it's not proven that the PCs have CHIM, then someoen came up and said that "if I don't think they have CHIM, then I don't understand it," so, thinking that I'm trusting in that "higher" wisdom, I go along with that idea; basically, it will boil down to me making a statement, then someoen checks it, THEN I change mine up, THEN someone will come up and check THAT one, bringing me back to square one...

it's gettin' old...gettin' old, lol :banghead:

PC always has CHIM, from the boatcrash/prison/prison to the end of MQ and all the extensions and possibilities, he/she has CHIM. But the CHIM get's lost and so does the PC, that's the way of the Dream and Dreamer.

Talos filled the role left empty by Lorkhan, solidfying the wheel. It is for this reason I say he occupies the hub.

Sybolism and totemic magic are very powerful in TES. If Tiber Septim occupied the White-gold tower in life, which is the hub of the wheel that is the IC, after apotheosis, where do you think he went?

Are you really so sure on that part?

Bah.

Look at a cart/wagon wheel. The hole in the centre of the hub is where the axle goes, around which the whole damn thing turns. Without the axle, the wheel is useless (or at least aimless). If it spins at all, that spinning doesn't take it anywhere useful or meaningful.

An axle. Like a spoke, but the other way around. Shaped like an 'I'. The whole universe revolves around 'I'.

Anything beyond that is pointlessly over-complicating the issue.

Red Mountain...

LMAO. Yeah, he did, didn't he? Even gave me a coin. See! *holds up a nickel*

The player might have CHIM. The Player Character does not, he is still bound by the rules of the (game) world. The CoC could, for example, not sleep in beds that were owned, and thus, he can't have CHIM.

But he could reload a game after he died. And if its on the PC, he could use the console to bypass just about anything.

Modders have CHIM. The Devs have teh ultimate 1337 sup4r c00l CHIMz0rs.

No, YOU can reload a game after he died, and YOU can use the console. You have to remember that you are not your character. An essential part of achieving CHIM is for your character to realise that, which he can't do, so he can never achieve CHIM.

After Vivec realized CHIM, he wished MK a happy Birthday, because he has reached CHIM and realised that he is part of MKs imagination, but at the same time, he is not.

But how do we know that those aren't actually character controls?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. I'm not actually much of a gamer, so can you explain?

Well, all this recent talk about the Player Character having CHIM is pretty annoying I think, and unneeded. Everyone's ruining the game for everyone else; that is, we are no longer heroes, we're all gods. Where once a fabulous and enigmatic theosophy was the path to CHIM, it's now turned into some half arsed definition for doing what we should be doing anyway, known as simple roleplaying.

R2-D2 survived all 6 star wars films, is the FORCE WITH R2-D2? Does that means the robot has CHIM too?

Thank you thank you thank you.