This is just a though that crossed my mind.

I read in an article that said, very much to my surprise and doubt, that the majority of video game sales and playtime is for the most part to and by advlts. That being said, most games, particularly like Assassin's Creed and dare I say GTA seem to have a very chid-like nature to them. Childish or not, do you think video games should start to be marketed to a more mature audience in terms of story telling, artistic style, and voice acting?

I don't mean in terms of nudity or sixual stuff. I let Bethesda decide how far down that road is appropriate for an elder scrolls game. Don't want this to be a perv game or like Bioware's unbearbly cheesy and cliche romances as seen in Dragonage or Mass Effect. If they did I'd prefer something of artistic nudity like in the statues of Divines.

And I definitely don't mean in terms of curse words either, I mean some stuff is fine but I never want to hear the f word in an Elder Scrolls game, that would be way out of context and make the game seem too much like the modern world. It would just be lame.

But I'm thinking more on the lines of mature topics, acting, and dialogue like you would see in an advlt series on HBO or something like Breaking Bad to throw one out there. Something more dramatic and less game-ish.

I for one, have always enjoyed Elder Scrolls as something of a visually raw and realistic experience, very bare to the bones in terms of sheer realism, an advlt and matured world. Beautiful, but something that advlts would appreciate more than a kid who likes laser pointers and EDM. However Elder Scrolls has always had little tidbits of childlike humor here and there that I've always been able to appreciate as well. But if you had to choose between one or the other should that stay there? Obviously we don't and Bethesda can easily deliver on both ends.

But what's more important in an Elder Scrolls game, advlt-themed realism? Or childlish indulgence?

I'd go for more of an advlt game, but I just wanted to bring this up.

Players see these terms and get differing ideas for what they mean. advlt-Themed may put "game porm" into some heads. It may bring up drug usage or alcoholism in the game. Maybe many random sixual encounters, ala Leisure Suit Larry comes to mind. Gore and graphic violence may also enter the picture.

I'm for more "advlt oriented" game play, but shudder to think what developers may implement. And I have to admit, sometimes, a little "childish indulgence" can be quite fun

But I'd rather my games keep them separate

Yeah. Frankly, nothing on HBO strikes me as particularly 'advlt'. It's not thoughtful, it's not really that intellectual, it's not very emotional, and it's not that interpretive. All in all, i find shows like Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, the Sopranos and so forth to be vastly more immature than some shows geared more directly to children. Adventure Time, for instance, is often silly, but tackles far more mature topics in more advlt ways than anything i have ever seen on HBO.

The thing is... how you define these ideas is going to drive how you interpret what is presented. Fun, energetic escapism doesn't instantly make something childish, nor does gritty and realistic make something advlt. Nor are the two mutually exclusive. Look at the Simpsons. The themes and ways they are represented change as you grow. What you saw when you were 14 isn't likely what you'll see when you're 30, even if watching the exact same episode.

But one sure-fire way to strip any sense of maturity of advlt atmosphere from something is to TRY too hard. This is a problem that HBO has, this is a problem that Wild Hunt has, this is a problem that far, FAR too many 'advlt' games, movies and media has. You don't have to strip the wonder and fun from something to make it advlt, and in doing so you're more likely to make it a parody of what being an advlt is.

If I were to arbitrarily categorize my interests for videogames in terms of maturity, I'd say I'm more drawn towards mature/dark/serious content.


Also, a bit off-topic, but I personally hate the term EDM for all electronic music (I see it as a marketing strategy to meld nuanced sub genres into one highly marketable genre for a mainstream American audience, post 2010). I am an avid listener (and noob creator) of trance, progressive, and ambient music, and feel that the genres I listen to very much often have a mature sound to them.

Context. TES has always been all over the place when it comes to the mood or feel it wants to portray. With that said, they have never gone with the muddy grimdark (at least, what we the player actively see in-game) soul grind like The Witcher or Berserk can be, but its not really the Crystal Spires and Togas fighting against the forces of EVIL like more campy fantasy archtypes can be. I think they do a go job at balancing the whimsy with the serious on the whole for the most part, even if Oblivion is half the time jarring because of it.

Would I like to see things Bethesda usually doesn't touch on though? Maybe. This isn't really an issue I care either way for, though I will admit I'm not a big fan of settings that share Witcher's overall tone and story telling to begin with half the time.

this is something modders can do. let they do this part, while bathesda work on main content, like realistic character creation, good combat system, dynamic quest, better world, etc

I agree with Lach



mature themes can be good, but its very easy to go overboard.. a good product needs a way to balance this, they are not mutually exclusive from one another..




I play games to have fun.. I live every day in a dark existence, its forms of escapism that helps me get through it all..

The Elder Scrolls, advlt-Themed or Childish?


No, I prefer advlt-Themed AND Childish, depending on the situation. There are places where the childish sense of escapism and wonder are fitting, and other places where it calls for a more serious approach to a touchy situation. The ability to encompass BOTH in the game is one of the things I like about the series in general.

Well technically Daggerfall is rated M, Morrowind and Oblivion rated T and Skyrim rated M again. Skyrim probably got the M in part for the goriness where as Daggerfall got it's M from nudity and prosttutes. I've seen at least one person say they think Morrowind should've been M-rated cause of how scary the Bonewalkers looked. I don't think Bethesda considers it that important to keep the rating at a specific level factoring all that in, but then "Mature" is one of those words, it's really hard to be... Objective about. It's all too easy to slip into the trap of "I personally like this, so it's mature" or even "Since it's technically rated M that automatically makes it more mature than other games". "Maturity" much like "Best TES game" is just something that... Is subjective, and all comes down to matters of opinion.

I dare say, even calling something "Mature" because of difficulty would be another mistake as well, of someone stating the subjective thinking they are being objective. But anyhow... I'd say TES is relatively speaking much closer to being advlt themed than childish, sure there's gorier franchises filled with more taboos, and sure there's game franchises that are much harder to play than TES games are, but as a whole the TES series are quite advlt themed. Especially with how, even the two T-rated TES games have things like Skooma, and how you can become a violent criminal breaking the law, it's no Grand Theft Auto but definitely leaning the direction of advlt Themed.

As for six/nudity, I have nothing against people modding that into their own personal games, but I don't want Bethesda risking a law suit, or risking a massive loss of fans adding that themselves to any TES game. I'm very reluctant to use the term "mature" because to me, what one calls maturity, is simply a point of view or an opinion, a subjective thing treated as if it is objective.

I feel as if, I cannot help but be subjective due to mental limitations like everyone else, but I try to avoid coming across as acting as though I am objective, hence my fondness of the acronym "AFAIK"... So there's some attempted answers anyways.

Well, the words "advlt" and "childish" have a lot of their own baggage...

I don't have any issues with "mature" themes, but what I don't want TES to become is grimdark, or sixy to an unnecessary extent (coughDaggerfallcough). This is something I'm honestly not worried about with Elder Scrolls - since Morrowind, the games have been mostly consistent in their approach here (Oblivion may seem less so because of the aesthetic, but it's still in line with what Morrowind and Skyrim set). And the team has given every indication that they don't care too much about the ESRB rating (they were just mad they had to change Oblivion's), and hat they feel no obligation to include sixual or mature content. Especially not at the cost of taking away the childish or more fantastical content.

But I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about how to make things mature... instead of focusing on the things you can't have in children's media, shouldn't the focus just be on things that interest advlts? Of course, I can't tell you what that means... but since everyone developing this franchise is an advlt, I think we're okay.

Slightly relevant quote from They Might Be Giants: "But like all children's entertainment, this is actually a Trojan Horse for advlt work." ... they have a pretty good handle on advlt and children's media, I'd say, at least in the context of their own music.

I prefer to say mature than advlt since almost anybody of most ages can be mature enough to handle more serious situations, ideas, and logic.

For example, the death of children is a pretty serious topic that most people aren't mature enough to handle and prefer to either A: Have no children in their games or B: Have them invincible. Cause of this, certain story ideas for games don't ever come into play, even though they can be great story elements. (This goes for other topics as well, mind you). I consider Bethesda's games to be mature, as it does handle some serious topics in their games but they still limit themselves.

I agree. It seems like a lot of people associate gore, violence, casual six, and wanton profanity with being "mature," but to me it generally comes across like a teenager trying to act "grown up." To me, a mature work is one that addresses serious issues and genuine emotions in an advlt manner, and I have to agree with Lachdonin that many media aimed at children are in fact more mature than the "advlt" works that do little more than glorify six and violence. For example, Inside Out was probably the most mature film I watched last year; by contrast, Skyrim generally felt like it was trying too hard to show you how "grown up" it is--what TVTropes refers to as "Darker and Edgier." Dark is fine, but it should have a purpose beyond dark for darkness' sake.

I wouldn't go that far. The massive contrast to happy sunshine land (other things aside) in Oblivion and us not being under the wonderful reign of Cyrodiil with everyone stabbing each other in the face openly makes Skyrim seem darker then its counterparts, but its no more different in tone or feel then Morrowind was. If you something that was universally darker and ediger, hit up Murder Clown inc the Dark Brotherhood morphed into in Oblivion and to some extent retained in Skyrim. That was sort of the dark, campy "We spill blood for dark gods!" nonsense that you usually throw that label on.

advlt themed please. I don't want to play and elder scrolls game, aimed at kids. I don't want my intelligence insulted.


In fact, I think recent TES games are not advlt themed enough. There should be wenches, six and nudy.

Video game six and nudity is childish, IMO. I don't play video games for pixelated boobs. Like others have said, you don't need things like that to be advlt themed. A good story and the right subjects can make it an advlt/mature game.

I couldn't agree more

This

and this

have nothing to do with each other.

There is less insult to my intelligence in....let's say a Professor Layton game than in Skyrim.One actually needs a basic amount of thinking the other just needs the abilty to click.And yet it is defintily not made for advlts....

I have nothing against six in a game but don't need to have it forced in it to make it more "advlt" like the witcher series does.It's for the same reason I think of the all the sixy "armor" or armor remoddeling mods as childish and stupid they don't make the game more advlt they just add more boobs and ass.

At times I see a definite lack of maturity in people's ideas of what "maturity" is. Hint: It ain't "raging teenage hormones."

But then again, I'm older than dirt, so I've had plenty of time to be immature.

Again, you said it better than I did

Usually, one can tell when something is "trying too hard" to be something. It just does not "feel right."

I agree that the Dark Brotherhood is the poster child of both Darker and Edgier and teenage angst. It's a wonder they haven't been wiped out ages ago by some order of actual professional assassins like the Morag Tong. But a lot of Skyrim felt like it was dark simply to be reactionary against Oblivion--not all of it, of course, but Skyrim felt more "gritty because it's cool" than Morrowind, which felt more naturally (and maturely) dark. Don't get me wrong, I think Skyrim's tone could potentially be a step in the right direction--though I do appreciate the values dissonance in Oblivion's overlying cheerfulness and underlying darkness, much like Deponia or Fallout: New Vegas--but in and of itself it didn't quite cut it for me; there was still a little too much teenage angst in it.

exactly.



funny thing is, real "maturity" has nothing to do with what the ESRB usually gives "M" ratings for.. "Maturity" in a game is achieved by writing and how certain themes are presented within (such as genocide, or religious slavery), Maturity is not achieved via violence, drugs and sixual content.. as an example, I think we can all agree games like Saints Row are about as far from "mature" as you can get..



in all honesty, alot of "T" rated games handle actual mature themes far better than most "M" games do

Usually, children shows or media aimed at children are more mature than "media aimed at advlt" because those children shows takes things much more serious, and have a better overall story + mature meaning/reasoning to it. I can go into a lot of details of how immature a lot of advlt media is but I don't want to.

See, I don't see where Skyrim is "dark" at all, or at least what we actively experience in-game. Its like Oblivion's polar opposite in that respect. The setting is a bit darker, but what we actively experience...less so. Its less gory then anything Oblivion put out at any rate. The thing is, despite how saccharine Oblivion looked, if there was one thing it was, it was gory. Zombies were disgusting, Luciens strung up corpse was horrifying, the Deadlands were properly messy...those things to me were far darker for the sake of the spectacle then anything Skyrim can say it attempted. Skyrim meanwhile just sort of broke even all across the board. There wasn't anything in the base game that came across as being gritty or childishly dark like the Witcher and other series can be, nor was it happy sunshine High Fantasy land Oblivion sometimes was. It was just...kinda there.

The only time I think Skyrim veered for a darker turn was with the Dragonborn DLC, with one of the hero's that aid the protagonist ends up dead with Mora seemingly winning out on all ends. All TES games tend to end on a pretty grim note though, what with Morrowind being obliterated thanks to the Nerevarine stopping Dagoth, Cyrodiil fumbling into a state of decline post CoC, and now the Dragonborn (potentially) ending up under Mora's...tentacle.

Agreed.

I suppose I agree with you. I suppose where I'm going with Skyrim, is that it presents itself as dark, with an extremely desaturated palette (far more so than Morrowind's) and with everything looking rundown--but it fails to follow up on that with much that is genuinely dark, so it ends up coming across as more insipid. And because the darkness is superficial rather than based on any real bleakness, it generates that sense of angsty Darker and Edgier vibe.

You don't want your intelligence insulted so there should be more wenches, six and nudity?

No seriously, I'd also like to see a more grown up TES than we have to date, but what makes a game "advlt" for me is its art- and story direction. What ruled out TESO for me for instance was largely that I think it looks like something off cartoon network. For whatever reason the videogame industry still has this idea of itself as something which primarily has to be appealing for 14 year olds, and while that lasts I think it'll be hard for it to break free and become more widely accepted. It's a new art form - the natural extension of books, theatre, and movies - and I think the success of Witcher 3 for instance shows just what a vacuum there is for material that is more in line with the bestsellers in the bookstores or top rated movies. A TES game could very well help fill that void, if they dare take that final step.