Well, With Arena , daggerfall, Oblivion But Especialy Skyrim At least.



Look At Skyrim's Roman Soldiers Imperials. I have no Problem with bethesda taking INSPIRATION from Some Sources But this is Simply Something Else

They Have Latin Names, il accept this part Because it's hard to make up Naming schemes for 9 Races
They Wear Historically Accurate Roman Armour
They Have Roman Ranks
They Have Roman Haircuts
Their Land Matches the description of Italy
They Have Arenas (which they use people and animals in, rather than the logical choice of Cheap and immortal Daedra that Oblivion Provides)
They Are "Civilised "
Tullius Looks like Caesar!!
I am Surprised that they do not Wear Togas and Enslave people.

The Nords And Redguards Could be Put in the same Boat. If you Look Realy Far into it, the redguards aren't So Bad... But to the Casual player they're just Arabs (or African americans, in older games)


But when you look at three races of elves, The Bosmer,Orsimer And the Altmer.. It's the same thing just with Other Sources of fiction. The only groups that Stand out as Unique Are the Khajiit, Argonians and Dumner (who's appearance is Generic without That Badass, low Sound quality voice)

One other thing is that The Ores of Skyrim are WRONG. Ebony Has A Decent story behind it so it's ok. But moonstone, malachite and corundum Are Gemstones. It doesn't realy make sense to use them in the way that they are used (malachite is Weak, Corrundum Is one of the hardest thing's out there so i have no clue as to why you would use such large quantities of it to make an alloy rather than it's own suit)

On the monsters side- Well, Arena and Daggerfall might as well have been Designed to be generic as they were half from greek mythology. Morrowind Had it pretty sweet, Oblivion went Generic Again... Now skyrim's unique in That it twisted it's Own lore To make Genericness. (falmer/Goblins. Draugr/Generic armed Undead. The Dwarven stuff is unique- But look how they Changed the Dwemer Settings with stone, Tolkien Architecture (and The occasional Golden thing to stop the fans from Crying) ) It's all Simply Too Low fantasty.




Imagine that there is this Line, Or triangle If you want to account For other fiction. At one End We have the Realy high Fantasy that was written By Someone With enough Lsd in him To fry an elephant. This is the corner With Anime Characters, Huge swords, Disproportionate Everything , Floating Tricorns with feathers and Lime green Grass. That's Totaly Unimersive. But on the exact Opposite End of the Line We have Historically Accurate roman soldiers That Take us out of the Story Because we're Confused As to how They Got in A realm With Cat people, Two moons and Nine Devines.

As with the Tolkien Crap- We've seen it all before- Must we see it again? The Objective Of the Writers/ Lore Masters Is to Find The Perfect Spot Between Reality And Fantasy, Then the level Designers need to think of ways to ease them in Correctly.

First: Why so many random Caps? i really see no Point to only Occasionally putting words in Carital Letters.

Second: well, I think you ought to go and read up on the lore in detail and then you'll probably be saying that they borrow a lot and twist it in such a delicious way.They do take a lot of tonal stuff from real mythologies, like how Reman was born because a man had six with a hill.

I'm reading along in the post, and then you're like:

They eat similar food to the Romans.

That's a little far down the rabbit hole of petty complaints at that point.

I love watching you tie your argument in knots trying to attack Oblivion and Skyrim, yet again, without putting down the first three games.

Bethesda had to account for the absence of the Falmer in some way, they could either make them completely gone forever (the Ayleids) or have some Falmer ghosts roaming around (the Dwemer). "Twisted and broken race of blind, subterranian elves in a symbiotic relationship with some seriously messed up insects" was new to the series, and far more interesting than the other two alternatives. As for the Draugr, would you have really rather have seen plain zombies running around when you have an interesting and unique regional variety with roots in Norse mythology?

Also, protip, the http://images.uesp.net/e/ea/MW-Creature-SteamCenturion.jpg used the exact same brass on stone color scheme. It was just harder to see because all the colors in Morrowind were bland and washed out. I never liked the Dwemer ruins in Morrowind, having your entire tileset and every monster in it use similar colors is a freaking terrible idea, artistically, and only adds to the repetition that the dungeons already suffered from. The dark greys of the stone against the brass of the centurions and steamwork http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120123074620/elderscrolls/images/6/6d/Dwarven_Centurion_Guardian.png makes for a much more interesting visual experience. And I don't see the Tolkein connection, literally at all, except that they're both dwarves who live in underground halls, I guess?

Morrowind's Imperials were even more Roman-esque than Skyrim's.

You really are digging your own grave here.

Yes, I do think the morrowind IMperials were too Roman (ironicaly, Oblivion's imperial armour wasn't roman enough)

Plus.. I did mention That Daggerfall and Arena use too many Generic npcs (Medusas? Giants? Centaurs? Orcs? - Dreugh are pretty good though)


Also- I noticed that in skyrim- Bretons are the most human and least elven looking of all races (roundest features). But Lore wise they are the most elven of the humans? Why did this Happen... Did bethesda want to make them More Celtic ?

Imperial armour is way cooler than Roman armour.

Agreed. Romans... Vikings... Dragons... it's all horribly unimaginative.

But you could say that about almost all fantasy games though. If it's not the done-to-death medieval europe theme, it's mythology, cliche fantasy races like elves and orcs, etc. Even Morrowind which is praised for it's unique 'alien' feel borrowed a lot from middle-eastern and eastern culture.

This is true
At least they've provided some twists on the standard tropes
Even the most original fantasy game worlds like Tekumel or Glorantha borrow from aspects of Earth cultures, just less from the most overused and familiar ones
Games companies have to cater for the averageplayer who doesn't want to read a huge amount of lore just vto be able to create a character that makes sense in the game world

I'm glad TES takes some inspirations from elsewhere. I like some familiarity. If I want something completely different there's always Final Fantasy. I like TES way better than FF, though.

Snow-whales and spece gods and wasabi and HROL DID LOVE UNTO A HILLOCK! and Vivec having a [censored] that is also a spear that he uses to kill his children by Molag Bal and god-computers INNA FYOOO-CHURRRR!!!!! fighting heroes from the past... INNA FYOOO-CHURRRR!!!!! and robot heroes unmaking sections of space because he is a new form of the space-god who is the time-god because he's always fighting the time-god who is schizophrenic and has at least three independent personalities working separately at a given time. Right, and the world is the split-up infinity dream of a sleeping god who is no longer strictly necessary for the dream to continue.

Oh, sure, there are a lot of visual similarities, but at the core lore has all sorts of new and original twists on all the ideas people have been talking about since we were telling stories about goblins around campfires as we hunted mammoths.

In a way, everything in fantasy is based on our hopes and fears in the real world, just thinly disguised so you don't always make the conscious connection. Tolkien borrowed shamelessly from European, Greek, and Middle-Eastern literature and mythology, and most modern fantasy is merely the same stuff handed down once more step. Tolkien's adaptation of Huns (Uruks), and the mounted elite bodyguard of Attila in particular (the Uruk Hai), into "generic badddies" (Orks) was just one of many examples. He not only named the great fortress of the Persian-inspired "Shadow in the East" (Barad Dur) based on the Assyrian word for fortress ("Dur"), but named a river adjacent to the land of Lorien (the Silverlode) after the vein of silver in Lorien (a Greek region near Athens) which financed the building of the ships which were used to destroy the Persian fleet. Then there's "Shadowfax" and the sacred white horses used to pull the "chariot of the gods" in the Persian army.

Arena was little more than a "D & D inspired" variant, which developed its own independent direction with Daggerfall. DF still kept mostly recognizable traditional fantasy opponents, with a few changes. Morrowind broke tradition in many respects, creating a couple of semi-insectoidal creatures (Nix Hounds, Kwama), pseudo-dinosaur "cattle" (Guar), and a number of mammal-reptile (Alits, Kaghouti) or bird-reptile (cliffies) hybrids, along with standard rats and giant mutant crabs. Its "demons from hell" included the stereotypical "devils" (Dremora), as well as a host of other odd new forms (Clanfears, Scamps, Hungers, Ogrims, etc.). Oblivion returned to more traditional fantasy (Goblins, Trolls, Minotaurs, etc.), along with wolves, rats, and crabs. Its demons included most of the Morrowind list, but made further distinctions between types of Dremora to suit the heavy levelled and scaled game design. From what I hear, Skyrim added stereotypical fantasy Dragons, and a few other "Nordic" creatures, at the expense of most of the rest of the list.

I don't mind a little borrowing; in fact it's the basis of inspiration. I do mind when it's blatant and unimiaginative, which too much of it was at the start of the series, and seems to be once again.

Oh don't forget Mount Doom Red Mountain. Nah seriously though, everything visual has been done before by someone, what were you expecting from the legion? A generic medieval fantasy look instead? Or overly impractical armor? The Roman influence is a breath of fresh air in this genre if you ask me.

they also have a colloseum in their capital. maybe you didn't notice the even more obvious similarities between nords and scandinavians. nords. norse. caugh. or the fact that redguards wear turbans and are black people. or khajiit are cats and elves have pointy ears

Elder Scrolls, like all fantasy, uses the culture of older real-life civilizations as templates. All five of the ES games used different templates, and Morrowind borrowed HEAVILY from Mesopotamian culture. While Morrowind might be somewhat unique in that regard, Morrowind's materials are in no way "completely made-up" (though I do believe it is the most original of the five). No matter how hard one tries, in my opinion, even the wildest fantasy universe will in some way be inspired by the happenings of human history.

Just purely out of curiousity since I don't know much about Mesopotamians, what parts of their culture influenced Morrowind and in what way?

Besides many of the strange Daedric place-names (Assurnabibbi, etc.), the Assyrian/Babylonian style beards of the Dwemer, a few vague resemblances within the religious pantheon, architecture, and other such fairly "direct" influences, there are the previously mentioned connections indirectly through Tolkien's earlier borrowing from the Greek/Persian conflicts. It's a rich source of culture and history which directly and fundamentally affected the course of Western civilization, yet it's barely even noticed in the West.

The rather simplistic interpretation of the already relatively simplistic Nordic culture, which we got in Skyrim, just doesn't compare.

1. Nope. Latin names are longer. Romans had three names, for example Gaius Jullius Caeser or Marcus Licinius Crassus.
2. No they don't. Their shields certainly don't resemble the Roman scutum. Their helmets are different too, similiar, but different. The armour is not the same either. Also, Roman Legionaries did not wear boots, they wore sandals. So no, the Imperial Legion's uniform does not match the uniforms of Early Empire era Rome. Also, Early Empire Romans did not wear leather armour.
3. You are partially correct. They have Roman ranks, but three of the five are not millitary ranks.
4. Such haircuts were not and are not exclusive to the Roman people of any era (it is at this point your argument is less about you being uninformed and more about you desperately trying to come up with more points).
5. No it doesn't. Italy is boot shaped. Cyrodiil is not.
6. Many cultures had arenas and many used them for bloodsport.
7. What's your point? Every culture throughout history has been civilised.
8. So? It's probably more like an easter egg than Bethesda ripping random figures from history and throwing them into the game.
9. This isn't even an argument.


Strange. I was not aware of African Americans ever having a sea based culture, or living primarily in the desert. Of course, much of the United States is desert, but African Americans are not exclusive to those areas.

J'rahzir wonders how effective the Imperial truly is if the Imperial wears no pants in the cold and in the battle...

Bretons are pretty much half elves, and through breeding between humans, the elvish part got slowly bred out. And seeing how human-esque Bretons were in Oblivion, imagine 200 years of breeding with humans, you end up with a human-looking species with deep elven ancestry.



Don't think I've ever used the word "breeding" more in my life than in those two sentences

Better a good copy than a weak new concept.

Wake up call, Tolkien did not invent elves or Orcs.

I think it's pretty clear that we've debunked most of the OPs arguments. Oh well, don't feed the trolls.

On the other hand, I was never aware that the quality of a Lore, series, or anything for that matter, was synonymous with originality. Who cares if it's original if it svcks? And on the flip side of that, if it's so disastrously unoriginal, it'd probably be boring and not worth reading. TES is not the most original Lore, fine, but that has no bearing on its quality. I care about how good the story and the storytelling are, not about the originality.

TBH I did prefer the Oblivion Imperial Legion's looks to the ones in Skyrim and Morrowind. Though I did feel like they were a little bland. But like everything here, it is my opinion. I disagree with almost everything the OP has said. I was looking forward to a new and original art direction by Bethesda with the Imperials though. The Roman look is not 1-1 but is still very obvious.

My opinion that the Imperials actually seem to have much more in common with a Chinese Empire than a Roman Empire also causes me to go wtf when they reverted back to Roman style. It is like the empire has chinese influenced history and a roman influenced power structure and culture mixed with tons of little twists and turns to make it all work and be its own unique culture.

Major Chinese Similarities
-multiple revivals of an empire with periods of instability between them that conquers the lands around.
-Two major culturally different peoples. North and South China and Colovians and Nibeneans.
-Emperor who rules with the will of the Divine. Mandate of Heaven and all that.
-there are more smaller similarities but those can also be tied with just regular empire running and are not as important. Some of the power structure is identical with Romes as well in some cases. At least in general.

I think the Roman ones are pretty obvious tbh so I won't bother going into them.

This has inspired me to make a mod request for Oblivion's Imperial armor. That armor was cool because it seemed like a mixing of cultural armors that worked. Though the brown was kind of plain.

Well, I won't get into how the Empire is not like Rome [Basically its all just looks but no substance in this case], but I don't see the Chinese comparison.

-You could say the same thing about power that fluxated with the Byzantine Empire just as much as you can with China so I wouldn't really contribute China directly there.
- Two major culturally different people? again thats not explicitly a Chinese thing since culture in a great many society splits along cardnial directions. North and South US for instance northern Britan (Scotland) to Southern Britan (England). I'd like to see an actual example rather than just 'the culture differs' because thats true almost everywhere.
- Mandate of Heaven isn't like what the Empire has. Were talking about a pact with the God's here to protect the Empire, not a blessing from Heaven to rule the world.
- I don't really see much similarity between Roman or Imperial goverment here.