The Elder Scrolls Dumbed Down?

Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:24 pm

EXACTLY why the anology is terrible. Thank you for proving my point


Thanks for proving you do not understand the concept "anology"



The person to which I replied absolutely and in-arguably did offer a comparison, correct. He didn't 'identify' one thing with the other, he said that it was similar to the 'evolution' of a flight sim to an arcade game. The anologue was the simulation and the target was a TES game. That makes it an anology; you're online. Look it up. You don't need to use the classical linguistic formula to make an anology. Stop being anyone's teacher; you don't know what you're talking about


Obviously much better than you do- You even try to lecture me as to what I actually meant and wrote. You now even write yourself that the issue was one of being SIMILAR (i.e. not identical). You're trying to chase your own tail, all the while getting so confused that you don't even realize it was _I_ who brought that anology.
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x a million...
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:00 pm

Can't vote on the poll as it's not "immersive" enough. :P

No seriously, there are some things that are dumbed down, but other things which are improved. Overall, I'd say the entire game when viewed in its entirety is NOT dumbed down, there are a few pieces of the game itself, however which are obviously simplfied. We all know what they are (this has been discussed to death) but here's my 2 gold pieces anyways.


> STATS. I'm old-fashioned, these aren't just a bunch of numbers to me, they define who my character is from Day 1, and who he or she is to become. With the new perks system, the only thing that's left is who my character is to "become". The fact that every character now starts off genericly with Health, Stamina, and magika as the only defining factors just isn't enough.

> No armor/weapon degredation. I love the new smithing system, but It would make so much sense if we could use this not just to make and improve weapons & armor, but also repair them. Maybe as DLC Bethesda? I'd pay for it. :yes:


Those are my 2 main [censored]es, so far as dumbing down goes. Everything else is generally so improved in comparison to Oblivion, I find myself playing Skyrim for hours and hours and losing sleep! Exploring is extremely immersive, has me on the edge of my seat most of the time. NPCs (friend or foe) also have made vast improvments, too many to mention.
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Charlotte Henderson
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:05 am

Thanks for proving you do not understand the concept "anology"





Obviously much better than you do- You even try to lecture me as to what I actually meant and wrote. You now even write yourself that the issue was one of being SIMILAR (i.e. not identical). You're trying to chase your own tail, all the while getting so confused that you don't even realize it was _I_ who brought that anology.


Bull. Go look up the definition. That's twice I asked you to. You're full of it
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Cheryl Rice
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:03 pm

Lets face it, no matter how much a person love TES, you cannot denie that the series has dumbed down a little with each game in the series.

I fear that the next TES game will get even more dumbed than Skyrim.
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Wayne Cole
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:33 pm

Lets face it, no matter how much a person love TES, you cannot denie that the series has dumbed down a little with each game in the series.



Yes I can. Because I don't see cutting superfluous extra crap that didn't serve any useful purpose as "dumbing down".
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Dorian Cozens
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:26 am

You say superflous extra crap, another guy says options. that "superflous extra crap" was wholly ignorable by you and didn't stop you from saying how awesome the game of your choice was. just another example of fallicy

another one?

"I don't have to keep an excel spreadsheet open" Since when did you even need to?? oh when you power gamed, so you do efficient leveling and now you want to complain about something you chose to do? gg


Like I said, all the Streamlining might get you to the "fun" quicker, but thats all it boils down to, simple, shallow, fun that doesn't stay fun for long.

and how long is a "Long run"? your 50 hours mean crap for a series thats been possible to player for Years, if you think you'll still be entertained by different colored clones with an uninspired rehash of Perks made manual then more power to you. but -I- do not give a damn, and what was present before did not deter from your experience.

All these folks going on about how it was great taking away this and that are largly bandwagoners because there was NEVER widespread barking or even suggestions regarding much the design descisions.
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+++CAZZY
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:52 am

You say superflous extra crap, another guy says options. that "superflous extra crap" was wholly ignorable by you and didn't stop you from saying how awesome the game of your choice was. just another example of fallicy

another one?

"I don't have to keep an excel spreadsheet open" Since when did you even need to?? oh when you power gamed, so you do efficient leveling and now you want to complain about something you chose to do? gg


Like I said, all the Streamlining might get you to the "fun" quicker, but thats all it boils down to, simple, shallow, fun that doesn't stay fun for long.

and how long is a "Long run"? your 50 hours mean crap for a series thats been possible to player for Years, if you think you'll still be entertained by different colored clones with an uninspired rehash of Perks made manual then more power to you. but -I- do not give a damn, and what was present before did not deter from your experience.

All these folks going on about how it was great taking away this and that are largly bandwagoners because there was NEVER widespread barking or even suggestions regarding much the design descisions.


I think I fell in love with this post.
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Anna S
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:10 pm

You say superflous extra crap, another guy says options. that "superflous extra crap" was wholly ignorable by you and didn't stop you from saying how awesome the game of your choice was. just another example of fallicy

another one?

"I don't have to keep an excel spreadsheet open" Since when did you even need to?? oh when you power gamed, so you do efficient leveling and now you want to complain about something you chose to do? gg


Like I said, all the Streamlining might get you to the "fun" quicker, but thats all it boils down to, simple, shallow, fun that doesn't stay fun for long.

and how long is a "Long run"? your 50 hours mean crap for a series thats been possible to player for Years, if you think you'll still be entertained by different colored clones with an uninspired rehash of Perks made manual then more power to you. but -I- do not give a damn, and what was present before did not deter from your experience.

All these folks going on about how it was great taking away this and that are largly bandwagoners because there was NEVER widespread barking or even suggestions regarding much the design descisions.


I see what you're saying with regards to the weapons, I couldn't care less if they had spears or not.

But with regards to the character development system. I truly think its as powerful if not more so then the old style. You just have to use it differently.
Sometimes I think you're stuck in a mindset Omega, it seems you had decided that it wasn't going to work even before the game was released. Judging from old posts from a few months back.
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Ladymorphine
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:04 pm

You say superflous extra crap, another guy says options. that "superflous extra crap" was wholly ignorable by you and didn't stop you from saying how awesome the game of your choice was. just another example of fallicy

another one?

"I don't have to keep an excel spreadsheet open" Since when did you even need to?? oh when you power gamed, so you do efficient leveling and now you want to complain about something you chose to do? gg


Like I said, all the Streamlining might get you to the "fun" quicker, but thats all it boils down to, simple, shallow, fun that doesn't stay fun for long.

and how long is a "Long run"? your 50 hours mean crap for a series thats been possible to player for Years, if you think you'll still be entertained by different colored clones with an uninspired rehash of Perks made manual then more power to you. but -I- do not give a damn, and what was present before did not deter from your experience.

All these folks going on about how it was great taking away this and that are largly bandwagoners because there was NEVER widespread barking or even suggestions regarding much the design descisions.


Sorry, let me rephrase:

A bunch of numbers games (which I refused to play, but apparently were very important to others because they like math mixed in with their fun) are useless, superfluous crap. They don't add anything to the game environment. They don't draw you in to the world. They waste your time.

And again, 50+ hours, I'm still having fun. Along with the majority of people playing this game. Even on the forums, which are a hub for whining, the "this game is broken" crowd are an unfortunately-vocal minority.
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Saul C
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:55 pm

Not in the slightest. Just because you don't fiddle around in [censored] stat sheets and menus for half the time you play the game doesn't mean its any less of an RPG.
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Iain Lamb
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:06 pm

again, when the hell did you need to deal with numbers? when? and Skyrim doesn't have similar....um have you done crafting? or even perks? because they are all numbers as well. more menus than you can shake a stick at.

And theres another bit there

the "vocal minority" its always a Minority when someone wants to downplay concerns

"people on the forum are a minority"

"whiners are a minority"

"people who like the game are a minority" (when spoken in reference to "complainers")

as if for some reason, the very aspect of being on the forums makes one a minority, and what many fail to realize is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this forum is apart of the Majority, and at one point in time did not post here, many potentials don't even Choose to post, Do you even realize how many "lurkers/Guests" roam here everyday?

oh oh but because someone speaks on a forum, and you do not agree with their thoughts, they are a minority and are to be dismissed. yeah k.



about the poster under my last.

no actually, they do exactly what I figured they do and I am not impressed, I played this at pax twice, I made up my mind and it really wasn't changed. theres nothing impressive about them, they are just bonuses, I had no idea that they were -this- indentured that skills don't add squat on their own, have you seen me directly say this game is crap? ever? or that it svcks? or "the worst game beth ever made? nope and quite frank that has all to do with Nothing.

I've also never said that Perks in idea are crap either, my main gripe is that the perks could have been so much more with so little effort than it is now, you haven't even seen my participate in the legions of UI threads that cropped up this week. all I've said is that I do not like their design descisions, much of it is ass backwards. I don't need a 300 page text book and a chart but for the love goodness can we get some multiple means to an end...or even multiple ends? and not just an end...
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k a t e
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:54 pm

The title question and the poll question are entirely different matters.
RPGs and more specifically TES don't require above average intelligence to play. There is a learning curve (which is steeper in the earlier games} to becoming familiar with how the mechanics work, but almost anyone with the time and patience could master it. Bethesda have been streamlining the mechanics of TES games for a long time now in an attempt to make them more accessible and easier to get into and thats not a bad thing IMO.
Bethesda have always been stronger at some elements of game design than others. They continue to be good at creating an open world with interesting environments, weak on choices and consequences and interaction with NPCs. Thats been true for a long time and Skyrim is defnitely, for good and bad, a typical Bethesda game in those respects.
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Craig Martin
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:20 pm

And theres another bit there

the "vocal minority" its always a Minority when someone wants to downplay concerns

"people on the forum are a minority"

"whiners are a minority"

"people who like the game are a minority" (when spoken in reference to "complainers")

as if for some reason, the very aspect of being on the forums makes one a minority, and what many fail to realize is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this forum is apart of the Majority, and at one point in time did not post here, many potentials don't even Choose to post, Do you even realize how many "lurkers/Guests" roam here everyday?



I'm guessing you haven't looked at the sales figures for Skyrim.

The number of people on this forum represents a very, very, very small portion of the actual playerbase.

And of that small portion, only a small portion are saying that this game is "broken". I'm not even going to get into the overwhelming mass of positive reviews the game has gotten.
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Emzy Baby!
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:31 pm

again, when the hell did you need to deal with numbers? when? and Skyrim doesn't have similar....um have you done crafting? or even perks? because they are all numbers as well. more menus than you can shake a stick at.

And theres another bit there

the "vocal minority" its always a Minority when someone wants to downplay concerns

"people on the forum are a minority"

"whiners are a minority"

"people who like the game are a minority" (when spoken in reference to "complainers")

as if for some reason, the very aspect of being on the forums makes one a minority, and what many fail to realize is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this forum is apart of the Majority, and at one point in time did not post here, many potentials don't even Choose to post, Do you even realize how many "lurkers/Guests" roam here everyday?

oh oh but because someone speaks on a forum, and you do not agree with their thoughts, they are a minority and are to be dismissed. yeah k.



about the poster under my last.

no actually, they do exactly what I figured they do and I am not impressed, I played this at pax twice, I made up my mind and it really wasn't changed. theres nothing impressive about them, they are just bonuses, I had no idea that they were -this- indentured that skills don't add squat on their own, have you seen me directly say this game is crap? ever? or that it svcks? or "the worst game beth ever made? nope and quite frank that has all to do with Nothing.

I've also never said that Perks in idea are crap either, my main gripe is that the perks could have been so much more with so little effort than it is now, you haven't even seen my participate in the legions of UI threads that cropped up this week. all I've said is that I do not like their design descisions, much of it is ass backwards. I don't need a 300 page text book and a chart but for the love goodness can we get some multiple means to an end...or even multiple ends? and not just an end...


I think perhaps you took my comment the wrong way, it wasn't an attack, just an observation.
We have different opinions, I can respect that.
By and large you've been the fairest of the "Nay-sayers"

One thing I will comment on with regards to the "Minority" subject, is that there are a handful of members on this forum who do nothing but troll explosive topics and create their own, for the sole purpose of continuing this argument. I believe this is why many other members see the whole other side of the argument as a "Minority".

If you catch my drift.
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Jeff Turner
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:43 am

:facepalm:

Your character cannot have knowledge without stats. It doesn't matter whether the stats are visible to the player or not, but they have to be there. Think about it. If your character reads a book to learn something, how does the game recognise that? There has to be a number somewhere behind the scenes that changes. Your character isn't a real human being. They don't have a real brain that can remember things. It's all done by the game using numbers.


Again, video-game characters can't remember stuff without numbers. It's all an illusion. While it may seem like the NPC has remembered you mistreating them in the past, what's really happened is a number behind the scenes has changed based on your character's actions, generating a different response from that NPC.


Well in that case, a tree a rock and a plant are numbers as well. That's what a frakking computer does -- nothing but numbers. The GPU takes those numbers and paints you a picture using texture #5 at location (x,y,z) that doesn't mean that you need to see that set of numbers. I don't think all the numbers you love have been removed anyway, what's happened is that the Dungeon Master in the computer isn't necessarily telling you all of those numbers so that you can focus on whether or not your dovahkiin likes the Stormcloaks or the Imperials.


Skills ARE stats. If my character gets better at something like archery, all that's really happening is a number is increasing... like damage output going from 20 to 21 or whatever. It's all just numbers with labels on them.


This is why I prefer perks to straight stat increases. With a stat or skill increase I get a stat increase. Nothing about it gives you a choice -- heavy armour just makes you take less damage in heavy armour makes it last longer. With perks you get a choice as to what your new mastery of Heavy Armour means -- either taking less damage or having the iron aromour last longer BUT NOT BOTH. That means making a choice. So much for dumbed down. I'd rather have some say in how the stats increase rather than the way Morrowind or Oblivion handled it -- it was a communist election. You will take less damage as you increase your block skill or you will take less damage with this block skill increase -- oh and choose wisely. Some choice.

RPGs in particular should be about the choices -- choosing to do one thing means choosing not to do another. Choosing to side with one great house means choosing not to side with the other too. Yes its a stat but it's not presented as a spreadsheet, just as a CHOICE.
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LADONA
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:50 pm

I'm guessing you haven't looked at the sales figures for Skyrim.

The number of people on this forum represents a very, very, very small portion of the actual playerbase.

And of that small portion, only a small portion are saying that this game is "broken". I'm not even going to get into the overwhelming mass of positive reviews the game has gotten.



-_-....so I take it when votes are cast for laws, presidents, office officials, in the countries of the EU, U.S and other nations, they are approved by everyone. that numbers of purchase = number of people satisfied, and that reviews..of which is their job to review and fluff things up are also reliable, oh no I don't think so especially when a reviewer said your char huddles when in a blizzard or when 1up said there was spell combining.

don't get me wrong, it goes both ways.


but the afformentioned Vote casting for officials HAPPEN with a "minority" and no from what you're saying, people posting on a forum think differently from people who don't. and my point prior was they aren't.
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krystal sowten
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:48 pm

This system is much more realistic over previous TES games. There are not controlling numbers in life. People to have a wheel over their head to spin to better increase their opinion of you. What you do determines how people see you, and im glad to see this reflected in the game. Just because D&D is heavily numbers based and many RPGs were based on D&D, doesn't mean a game cant be good without numbers.

That being said, you cant please everyone. It all comes down to the personal experience, either you like skyrim or not. If not, dont play it and go back to morrowind or oblivion. I personally love skyrim, and plan to put many more hours into it. I agree on some points, i was dissappointed in spellmaking being removed, but i loved that smithing was added, although it could have been a little more in-depth for my liking. I also understand some people dont like everything about the magic, but remember, were in nord lands... magic might not be as prevalent here as in some of the other provinces. Its like trying to get someone to teach you a firebell spell, when youre standing in the lobby of the fighters guild ;)
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Big mike
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:48 pm

Well in that case, a tree a rock and a plant are numbers as well. That's what a frakking computer does -- nothing but numbers. The GPU takes those numbers and paints you a picture using texture #5 at location (x,y,z) that doesn't mean that you need to see that set of numbers. I don't think all the numbers you love have been removed anyway, what's happened is that the Dungeon Master in the computer isn't necessarily telling you all of those numbers so that you can focus on whether or not your dovahkiin likes the Stormcloaks or the Imperials.

The numbers are still there for the most part It's the way they're implemented that's the problem.

Take stamina for example. What they've basically done is lumped two character attributes (strength and endurance) together, so you can't increase one without increasing the other. Kind've dumb, really. A physically strong person isn't necessarily going to be a good long distance runner; nor is a long distance runner necessarily going to be able to lift heavy weights.

Things such as jump height and running speed are still there technically, as you can use console commands to increase both. But they're both no longer there as something the player can choose to define who their character is.


This is why I prefer perks to straight stat increases. With a stat or skill increase I get a stat increase. Nothing about it gives you a choice -- heavy armour just makes you take less damage in heavy armour makes it last longer. With perks you get a choice as to what your new mastery of Heavy Armour means -- either taking less damage or having the iron aromour last longer BUT NOT BOTH. That means making a choice. So much for dumbed down. I'd rather have some say in how the stats increase rather than the way Morrowind or Oblivion handled it -- it was a communist election. You will take less damage as you increase your block skill or you will take less damage with this block skill increase -- oh and choose wisely. Some choice.

Perks, in theory, aren't a bad idea at all. They can be a good compliment to skills and attributes, giving the player some more things to think about when deciding how they want their character to progress.

The problem I have with perks in Skyrim however, is:

- Progression seems too reliant on them. Skill progression feels fairly non-existent and there mostly to present milestones that unlock new perks (level 20, level 50, level 70, level 100, etc). So instead of a natural progression over time, it feels more like i'm not really progressing at all in a skill, until suddenly I pick a perk and receive a 30% increase in damage or whatever.

- The way the perk trees are structured means that I often find myself picking perks I have absolutely no interest in just to gain access to something further down the line. So much for perks giving complete freedom of choice.

- There are enough perk points that I can pretty much unlock all the perks in every skill i'm interested in, which kind've defeats the idea of them making characters unique or encouraging the player to think carefully.

RPGs in particular should be about the choices -- choosing to do one thing means choosing not to do another. Choosing to side with one great house means choosing not to side with the other too. Yes its a stat but it's not presented as a spreadsheet, just as a CHOICE.

I feel as though I have less of a say over who my character is than in previous TES games (especially Daggerfall) because there are fewer skills and no attributes.

My character started out in Skyrim as a blank, default slate in Skyrim. No choice there. In Daggerfall I could pretty much decide what kind of person they were, what their basic strengths and weaknesses were, etc.

Instead of choosing whether I want a character who's physically strong but slow, or physically weak but agile, I basically just alternate between Health and Stamina when levelling up. Not much choice really.
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Karl harris
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:55 am

So hold on. You complain about the game being dumbed down, yet you are asking for 2 shouts to be merged into 1? Because what you just suggested is considered dumbing down.

For the people who are on a crusade to accuse Elder Scrolls of becoming more dumbed down, do you people actually know what you're talking about?


the first post to this thread and also where it should have died.

QFT, /thread.
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how solid
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:35 pm

The question is:

"Are RPG elements being stripped away from the Elder Scrolls Series"


And then there's a list of game mechanics changes

Firstly, being "dumbed down" has very little to do with how complicated the game is, and "dumbed down" has been the rallying cry of TES players who equate complexity with quality for YEARS, and mostly it's because Morrowind had all sorts of tiny detail. Being complex doesn't mean good or smart. It can mean dumb. The UI is pretty needlessly complex for PC since you're stuck with a console system, and it's not very good or smart, now is it?

It has never been logical to say that Complexity is what made Morrowind great. If that were true, then a video game about Corporate Accounting would be the best game ever developed. But as soon as Oblivion had changes to the complexity level, things were "dumbed down". Now Skyrim has even less trivial complexity, and so it is called "dumbed down". While I like the level of detail that complexity represents and I liked that aspect of Morrowind, complexity does not equal enjoyment.. A game can be quite streamlined and at the same time very detailed and challenging.

Secondly, game mechanic changes or simplifications change the ability to "Role Play" in Skyrim only in the players head. I would wager that many players that complain about the "RPG" aspect never actually participated in a real RPG session, in which the only limit to the player character was the player's imagination. You folks call this kind of game an "RPG" becasue you have a toon and you develop it but it's not really an RPG in any definition except the one which grew out of a need to label PC games that were about the fantasy genre.

is it possible for people to just play a freakn game and enjoy it? Apparently not.


Skyrim has two flaws in my opinion- one being the journal, which does hurt gameplay and the ability to roleplay (such as it can be done in a video game) because it is not as descriptive or organic as Morrowind's or even Oblivion's. Part of the 'feel' of Morrowind was that there were all these things going on at once and you needed a way to manage them in an indexed format. In Oblivion the need was still there. In Skyrim, the player needs to rely on the UI at times to make up for the poor Journal. If you ask me, a huge part of the so called "dumbing down" is just poor implementation of the Journal in Skyrim

The other flaw is the UI itself.

I was agreeing to a certain extent to everything you were saying until I got to this post. To me this angle of playing RPG's seems very lazy and unimaginative. Maybe its more down to you being ingrained with the classic DnD system thats the issue. Either way Every so called 'choice' that you say has to be made by stats, could also be just as easily be made by the playing character. I could argue the contrary and say, a 'lack' of stats leaves more room for the player to choose wether his character would be able to do said thing or not. Make it his own thing entirely rather than being restricted by a statistical inevitability.

While some people may need to rely on stats to make decisions for them. Other people like to make it their own fantasy and simply play the role of the thief climbing in through the roof, or battling in through the front door, simply as a choice of role play without the need for a 'statistical backing' that for all intents and purposes only applies 'license' that said character would be able to do so.

Maybe some people are just arsy about how rigidly they stick to the self supported suspension of disbelief. In my opinion the consolidation of the character progression system and streamlining of a lot of the game mechanics has made for a more fluent and fulfilling gameplay experience. But thats just me (and I'm an old school RPG fan).

In complaining that Skyrim feels a lot more 'dumbed down', are you failing to give credit to the depth and integration of ES lore into this title in the series? The unique crafting of each interior and the whole of the exterior enviroment, the more engaging side quests and exploration random encounters/backstories and more? To me, this title has bought back the feeling of a living and breathing world that Oblivion lacked. Bought back the feeling of Tamrielle, the racial and political strife, the theological discord. The underlying narrative and attention to detail within the narrative and continuity of the world.

I do feel like I'm back in tamrielle again, something Oblivion direly lacked. Yes the stats system may not be so 'player driven' any more, but it's still there. Now, instead of having to manually choose what goes where, which always follows a specific pattern anyway, now the system does it for you, if you use magic a lot, you become more powerful with magic and can learn better spells. You can use what you want to, how you want to, when you want to and the system will automatically evolve you character based on your actions in game. What about that don't you like? Its as far as i can tell exactly the same as it used to be, except with the middle man cut out, not to mention actually fixed now and logical as opposed to the illogical levelling system in previous ES games.

Playing a Stealthy Illusionist, Enchanter Alchemist is Still perfectly viable. The only thing they've 'removed' in my opinion is a broken stats system that required you to have to 'work' the system in order to make sense of the character you wanted to actually make! ( We all remember having to put things we were never going to use as our majors purely as a means of leveling efficiently ).

Those days are gone, and the redundant system has been replaced with another system that works just as well in terms of character development, in my opinion. I'm really enjoying Skyrim, like, majorly enjoying Skyrim. You should really try not get so hung up on this 'purist' stuff, the game is amazing.


Where is the accursed "Kudos", "Thumbs Up" or even the "Like" button when you really need it?

Dumb Down: "revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence".
Role-Playing Game: "A role-playing game (RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."
Action-Adventure Game: "An action-adventure game is a video game that combines elements of the adventure game genre with various action game elements. It is perhaps the broadest and most diverse genre in gaming, and can include many games which might better be categorized under narrow genres."
Follow-up on Action-Adventure Game: "Action-adventure is a hybrid genre, and thus the definition is very inclusive, leading it to be perhaps the broadest genre of computer and video games. Typically, pure adventure games have situational problems for the player to solve, with very little or no action. If there is action, it is generally confined to isolated minigames. Pure action games have gameplay based on real-time interactions that challenge the reflexes. Therefore, action-adventure games engage both reflexes and problem-solving, in both violent and non-violent situations."
The Elder Scrolls: "The Elder Scrolls (abbreviated as TES) is a role-playing video game series developed by Bethesda Game Studios and published by Bethesda Softworks."
Follow-up on The Elder Scrolls: "The Elder Scrolls games can be safely categorized as role-playing games (RPG), although they do include elements taken from action and adventure games."

The Elder Scrolls transcend genres, so it makes the whole genre discussion rather pointless. But since it is still by definition a RPG, it also makes the discussion invalid. The "dumbing down" argument is invalid because its definition and its use in the argument contradict each other, as Morrowind is by no means a game made for more intelligent or higher educated people than Oblivion or Skyrim - face it, there is no such video game in existence as that would be made for a massive minority and one none of us here are most likely a part of. I can admit to missing a few aspects of Morrowind that got lost in Oblivion and didn't make it back into Skyrim, like the Journal they had back then and the ability to actually talk to all NPCs(I don't get that one, honestly). Also the spell-making is missed, but I would never want to go back as Skyrim is more refined and polished than Oblivion and Morrowind combined and I would much rather have a game that lacked a few minor details than one whose major ones were flawed.

Note: I'm not saying Skyrim is flawless, because saying that would be both sad and ridiculous at the same time. But the game has not been "dumbed down", btw that's not the correct term and we need a new one, only polished to the point where it lost a few details. Some call that streamlined, and I don't care enough to google its definition to argue it - so I'll just agree with it.
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Céline Rémy
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:26 pm

So what you are saying is that a solution to dumbed down game is just to implement more stuff, and up the quantity as opposed to the quality which this guy is talking about?


That is basically what I am seeing from the OP's argument and all who agree with him.

They don't want quality; they want crap in large doses.
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Carlos Vazquez
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:57 am

I love Skyrim, i think it's great.
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Anthony Santillan
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:01 pm

I thought by eliminating attributes that they really let you customize who your character was, in regards to archer/mage/warrior/whatever. I'm a Nord archer that heavily uses sneak, and in oblivion it wouldn't have made sense because the nord's attribute distribution made more sense to go warrior, but I put in the time to sneak and archery so BAM, he's a sneaky, burly archer. I like Skyrim for that and the million other things, and I don't think that dumbs it down.
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SamanthaLove
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:08 am

That is basically what I am seeing from the OP's argument and all who agree with him.

They don't want quality; they want crap in large doses.

This is a stupid post sorry ....

No body wants crap ....

People that say rpg elements where stripped off are right , there is not much more fun creating the character now , couse you don't have anything else than place one point one perk , that's all its totally minimized and unsatisfactory , it describes nothing of yoru character and just turned the game into a uninteractive travel to see the beauty of the art direction of skyrim and read a quest after the other with very minimal choice to interact or do other things in them ....
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XPidgex Jefferson
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:40 am

Eh. I like Skyrim. I really like Skyrim. As far as making an elder scrolls title that relies more on action than sticking to the traditional rpg guidelines, they did a great job. As an rpg, I do find it lacking. I fell in love with the series after playing Morrowind. I sort of lost faith after Oblivion. With Skyrim, I found a game that I could really get behind. It is far, far from the experience that Morrowind was, but it is really good in it's own way. Personally, I liked the way that Morrowind was set up. I like by the books rpg's. I would love to see what would be "Morrowind 2", if you will, but that is just me.

As far as the game being dumbed down, that really comes down to what you consider "dumbed down". Skyrim fully allows you to create the sort of character you want to play. No less than any of the other games. At the same time, it takes on this "experimentation" vibe, that means you never have to be tied down to any choice when looking at things like playstyles. This can, considering, be seen as dumbing down in a way. In another way, it could be looked at as freeing. Things like the removal of separate armor pieces could be seen as dumbed down. As is grouping all weapon types into either one-handed or two-handed. At the same time, people like to look at this as "streamlining" and consider it a good thing that doesn't really take much away from the game, considering most stick to one or two weapon types anyway, and usually like to create a full suit of one type of armor anyway.

Long story short, it is up to the player how they view the direction of the series. For me, I do lean quite a bit to the "dumbed down" side of things. With that, Skyrim still manages to be a very, very freeing game, that still allows me to play it the way I want. When it comes down to it, that is what the series has always been. They might handle things much differently now, but it is still very much the same effect.



This is probably the most intelligent post in this thread. Gamers who prefer a more traditional rpg style, a la D&D, will believe the series is getting away from its roots, even if they enjoy the game as it is. Gamers who just like the open-world, sandbox style adventure game will probably think getting rid of some of the clunky rpg stuff is a vast improvement. To those different types of people, "dumbing down" means very different things. Personally, I like having character stats determine almost everything about my character so that my own abilities, other than planning things out, don't have much relevancy to what my character can do. And, yes, I like it when these limits are imposed on me by an external rule set. From the rpg perspective, making the game better would have meant adding more skills or proficiencies/feats. From the video gamer perspective, removing all that stuff makes for smoother game play, therefore making a better game. I would say that, undeniably, TES games are losing more of their rpg elements with each installment (that is, they become less of a video game version of D&D). I wouldn't call it dumbing down; I'd call it changing genres.
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kasia
 
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