That's news to anyone who knows anything about TES.

First of all, I really like Skyrim. It is a fun game.

With that out of the way, yes, the elder scrolls series is really losing its RPG elements. However, I would agree with the streamlining phrase as opposed to dumbing down. It's unfortunate to think about, but Bethesda wouldn't actually make use of what we want to expand upon the RPG game play. There are many elements that have potential to expand upon what it means to play our character and flush out their unique traits, but it is unlikely that Bethesda will every actually utilize that course of action. So, if they are removing a feature that they aren't actually going to expand upon, in all likely hood, then removing it for simplicity's sake isn't a bad thing.

A simple example would be strength. It has been an attribute through out the games up until skyrim. However, it has never governed more than attack rating, physical damage, and carrying capacity. A true RPG series that progresses in technology over time would add features to that and expand upon it. Strength might be required to actually interact with the environment and not just be abstracted to values. Moving heavy objects, breaking mechanisms (doors, locks, etc.), or even advanced combat techniques. Heck, even the dialogue options in New Vegas were an improvement, but the elder scrolls just seemed to miss out on it.

If Bethesda isn't going to innovate on the traits that makes each character unique then they might as well streamline it and make all the characters the same and actually focus on what they will care about. It's a slightly pessimistic view, but I don't hold it against Bethesda for going where the money-wind is blowing and choosing not to innovate on what many people don't care about.

For the rest of us, there is always DnD and other table top games. I play Skyrim like a first person shooter and leave it to real in depth RPGs to fill my desire for role playing.

If you voted "no", then you can't have been playing the series for very long. Just sayin'

No, it's still not different.

First, you're completely wrong about these "p&p" elements, as I have said in that post before, skills and perks DO matter. Oh there are no random rolls changed by your skills, then they are completely useless lol.
Just try out two characters one with no skill in weapons, one with 100 and fully perked, and see the difference.
But hey, your hit chance is independent from your character skill so it's less as an RPG, doesn't matter that in Morrwind, you still had to get physically hit the enemy, you still had to aim your bow or spells, the arrow or spell had to actually land on the enemy. These required no character skill, your aim did not get better with higher skill, your spells are still just as slow with higher level, you can still just as well dodge every enemy projectile no matter how much agility you have...
So those don't matter?

And the character creation thing, in Morrowind or Oblivion it hardly matters when you can just ignore what you've started with.
Claiming Skyrim to be dumbed down because you don't have this is just ignorant, when deciding to become a certain character, then living by it basically the same as creating somebody.
No, you cannot just create a full character and see how he/she works, because what you create is just a shadow of a character, a level 1 nobody, with barely any skills, only later on will they develop. Starting out with some skills just gives you a head start.

So yeah, not knowing how RPG works, just clinging to completely irrelevant facts.


Probably because the rest of the quests have absolutely nothing to do with advancement, and the guild doesn't stop when you become the leader?

This. For example, the 7 attributes in Oblivion almost all just ended up affects how much health, magicka, or stamina you had. Now you just directly pick that instead of picking it through other more complicated means.

Also keep in mind that much of the game has been made more complicated. Does that mean they are also 'smarting up' the series?

For example, combat in Skyrim is FAR more complicated. There is now shield bashing, bow bashing, more unique feels and styles to each weapon, and more complicated mechanisms.

Just because they make some things simpler, doesn't mean it's to 'dumb it down' its simply to improve.

I"ll not lie, I miss attributes, spears, the good ol' fashion journal, and a storyline you actually have to think about.

You have to think in Morrowind? Where?

(no, "where I'm supposed to go" is not really thinking...)

Eh, I don't think we're on the same page at all. First, I never said that Skyrim is "dumbed down." I'm only making the argument that TES moves further away from being a "port" from p&p rpg with each iteration. And you seem to think I believe Morrowind was a perfect example of p&p rpg mechanics in a crpg. I never said that, either (don't think I even implied it; bringing the straw men out of the fields, are you?). However, it was closer. It had the sanctuary effect, the unarmored skill, and the agility attribute that all made you more difficult to be hit (dodging), and your weapon skill affected your chance to hit your target. Did you still have to visually land your blows? Sure, but that didn't guarantee a hit. You haughtily proclaim that such a small difference doesn't actually make any difference to anybody, that it's just an irrelevant fact that shows I don't know anything about rpg's. It does matter to some people. I'm not saying either method of implementing combat is better or worse. I am saying that one method is closer to the way combat is resolved in p&p rpg's. I honestly don't see how you can even argue against that; it's pretty solid. The same idea applies to lock picking.

Now, character creation. I never meant to mislead you into thinking I believe you could start characters with any skills maxed at creation. Forgive me for being so thoughtless. Thank you, as well, for reminding me that your character is only defined by stats and, therefore, is not truly defined until the stats are quite high, probably having a few maxed out. It was very silly of me to forget such a fundamental aspect of role playing games. I mean, how could one ever develop backstories that explain why a character is better at some things than others, yet not be an expert in those things? I see now that you are absolutely right; I don't know how RPG's work. Perhaps you should open a school to teach about role playing games; you certainly know more about them than almost anyone on this earth.

Seriously though, holy crap, do you like jousting at windmills. I get that a lot of people have said Skyrim is dumbed down, but I haven't. In fact, I've approached the discussion of changes in game mechanics between the Elder Scrolls games as objectively as I can. You seem to equate "moving away from pen and paper mechanics" with "dumbing down" or "making worse." To me, that implies that you identify yourself as someone who likes rpg's and feels threatened when people claim a game you like is moving away from traditional rpg elements. You know, it is ok to like a game that's a genre hybrid, and it's ok to criticize a game you like, as well. Most of the people criticizing Skyrim really like the game, I'm sure; they just would prefer it if certain tweaks were made.

:lmao: That was my exact thought.

Morrowind really wasn't the absolute legendary game that some people on here would have people believe, and this is coming from someone who wouldn't know about this series if it wasn't for Morrowind.

While some changes definitely aren't ideal, this series has definitely gained more positives than lost them from the second and third game IMO.

I wouldn't say Oblivion is more complex then Skyrim. I like Skyrim's leveling system better because, perks make leveling more rewarding IMO. I never played Morrowind, but looking on the wiki the amount of skills is crazy, I REALLY want Bethesda add some these back in future titles, I want SPEARS!!!!!

Fallout & Oblivion in a meat grinfer = Skyrim

Perks come on your joking...

FUS-RA-DAH!

Yes and it svcks. (201 votes [41.10%])

I guarantee that half of the people that voted this has never even played an rpg that was made before the year 2000. I seriously see kids every day complain about how RPG's aren't complex enough. They're the same ones that constantly trash games like fable and flip out at the changes that dragon age 2 made to it's combat system. They're the ones living in plato's cave. They have the idea of the perfect rpg in their heads, but they don't know what it actually is.

Most RPG's of yesteryear were complex for complexity sake, due partly to the technology that was available at the time. Its much easier to force a player into creating functions that will allow them to "own teh spider caves," rather than creating 26 different animations for combat and spell effects, as well as writing code that entails.

I for one, as do many others, enjoy the mathematics involved in some of the older RPG's. But gaming is most importantly about generating an experience. The stronger the experience, the better the game.

And I certainly don't look down on others, who don't appreciate older conventions, like an utter snob. I encourage that everyone should share that philosophy.

Besides the point that what you're saying doesn't make sense because kids who haven't played RPG's before the year 2k are the ones crying about how broken enchanting is just for having to recharge once every three hours because that's too much work and then claiming the game is broken because they can't just run headlong into every encounter and not die. I'm pretty sure you're literally completely backwards, it's the vets who are disappointed in the oversimplification to cater to a younger, less mature audience.

You're a dunderhead who doesn't understand basic allegory. If you think the best of both worlds are mutually exclusive, I have nothing to say to you. Most of the options removed in morrowind could be seamlessly reintegrated into the gamebryo engine, as modders have proven hands-down. Removing features doesn't make a game better, it just maeks the game easier- and my bet is there will be even more dumbing down because they finally let the Elder Scrolls die - based on how these kids who grew up on Call Of Duty can't understand why putting their first thirty level perks from grinding iron daggers 500 times into smithing and enchanting exclusively results in a garbage character.

The second Dragon Age was terrible and that's the general consensus. It's terrible because without fail, your character ends up the same every game. You might as well play the intro sequence where they give you your endgame abilities and then quit, because you've seen everything there is to obtain. That's not the point of an RPG.

The audience has gotten dumber, and so they're catering to it. [censored], there's a dude above us calling Skyrim the third game in the series for chrissakes.

Even Morrowind pales in role playing potential compared to the branching options Daggerfall did. It all comes down the the generation that doesn't read and wants everything on a platter.

I would use the term watered down.

It's only news to people who've played Morrowind to Skyrim.

Play Arena. It's heavy on the action, light on the RPG. :rolleyes:

Play Daggerfall. No other game has a branching plot like that.

Can you imagine if Skyrim had a branching plot.

Every character for quite a while could have his own ending, instead of the exact same outcome to the exact same scenarios having absolutely no unique impact on the game world.

First, I'd like for someone to define "RPG elements". If by "RPG elements" you mean "messing with lots of numbers", then I guess so. Some people seem to require numbers in order to do absolutely anything, including role-playing. Some people don't need to be told everything and are able to think outside of the box.

The main difference in between an P&P game and TES is that in your average P&P RPG, you're a part of a team. A warrior won't have the Read Language or Arcane Knowledge skills (usually) because someone else is going to make up for those deficiencies. Skills and attributes are necessary to differentiate characters from each other. Classes are far more firm and restrictive. In TES, you're it. You're capable of going combat mage, healer, thief, and warrior all at the same time and there's nothing that really penalizes you for doing so. In fact, it pretty much encourages you to do this - is it even possible to get through some games without either using Security or Alteration to get past locks?

Morrowind wasn't good because it was complex, Morrowind was good because it was good. The environments were varied (despite having the gloom of Red Mountain over everything), the dialogue was interesting despite the dry nature of how it was presented, the lore mattered, it had a lot of factions to join, and some politics mixed into the "save the world" quest. For me it's why Skyrim clicks in areas where Oblivion didn't. Would I like to see things like Spears or Throwing Weapons back? Sure! Only if they're truly viable options, which they really were second tier in MW.

It's always wanted to dance between an P&P game and a video game, and it's never really quite meshed right. The leveling system was always clunky and overly restrictive, and some skills were just not all that necessary (Ath/Acro - "Look, I can run really fast and jump really high!"). Is Skyrim less complex? Yeah. Is it more fun to play? Yeah.

Exactly. Most of the people responding seem to think in black and white.

The two options are not:
(combine every bad thing from every elder scrolls game and combine them into a single epically [censored] game)
and
(leave it the way it is)

Edit: misspelling

I'm glad there is this kind of topic floating in the forums. I'm pretty sure Beth is looking at this and having many thoughts about the next installment of TES. Morrowind was the first TES game that came to consoles and Skyrim is the pinnacle from that venture. Finally Bethesda manage, to pc player disdain, to make the first true console port with TES. It will be so interesting to think what Bethesda, after listening to the complaints, have in mind for TES 6.

I've heard this in every game since Civilization II came after the original Civ game. Hell, when Morrowind came out people were saying it was watered down from Daggerfall.

I also do not buy into the Elder Scrolls catering to the lowest common denominator. As much as I loved Daggerfall and Morrowind, and I love them both and completed both, they both had clunky interfaces. I don't miss the UIs in either of those games.

Skyrims interface feels really natural with my controller.

One thing I wonder though is how the UI works on the PC. I liked Oblivions UI better on the PC than the 360. I'll find that out in Feb. when I get my gaming rig. Skyrim, I mean, not Oblivion.

Same thing MANY said after Oblivions release.

oh look more stuff streamlined, beth needs to get the thought that people can't handle thinking for 2 secs and give some damn options.

What? Have you been living under a rock? The UI for pc is the worst in TES history. A complete console port with big ass fonts and all.

Yes I agree. Though for me its hard at times. In the older Elder Scrolls I never had enough money. This one .. money comes so easy and I never need it other then buy some book or the like. What really bothers me is how many people are happy the way the game is. They are nothing more than sheep. Sorry but here we are 2011 and playing a CONSOLE made game in DX11! NOPE DX9 where there are tons of bugs. 2011 and cant have TINY SIMPLE things like torch shadows, rain and things look wet and so forth. The older Scrolls had things THIS one does not.

Yes yes yes they did a AWESOME job for a console game. The port to PC.. we have to wait for reg people for fixes. Just read alot of these threads.. most people are just sheep. They take anything given to them and don't expect anything. When the consoles 1st came out both had dx9 so it was WOW!.. Now the consoles are what 5 years old .. there is only so much you can do with DX9. Go play the older Scrolls then play this..why they had to make this one so much easier is beyond me. You have to crank the game to master to make it kind of hard and fun.

How hard is it to have your buddy with you NOT hit every trap in front of them. Or .. LMAO the ones the made the trap ..talk about their trap and yet hit it.. Again 2011 and your paying for what? Do you even care? DX9 now DX11.. do you even care? No you don't look out side.. look whats going on..95% of people say nothing as we watch what was the best in the world go to 3rd and GOD is not ..shhhhhh.. we are all just sheep..

I was pointing out one hypocritical group of gamers. You're trying to take my statement and tie it towards a completely different group. It doesn't work.




There's nothing wrong with oversimplification if it leads to a more engaging gameplay experience. They didn't do it to cater to a younger audience. They did it because that is what makes a better game. Unless it is something that you're into, there is nothing engaging about playing the numbers, which was what every single elder scrolls game was about prior to oblivion. Don't pretend that this isn't the case, because it is.



I never said they were mutually exclusive. Don't put words in my mouth.



No doubt, but I was being specific in my point that alot of people put it down solely because of the combat engine when there were much bigger flaws in the game, some of which you pointed out.