We're at cross purposes then, you seem to be talking about how the game records information, Where I'm not. I'm not on about how the game records things. I'm talking about how how well a character does or doesn't do isn't done on just Str, con, ect.

I would argue that. A lot of the things that I miss were not things that were broken and needed to be taken out.

evolution, it had to happen and i'm glad it did.

I've noticed that most of the people who use the term "Dumbed Down" don't have a clue what it means.

Its a very good game as it but it could have been so much better they seemed to saved lots of aspects from oblivion that svcked and either removed hidden or amalgamated the good ones.

Doesn't seem dumbed down to me, not at all. Yes, it's different from Oblivion in many respects, and some things were dropped, but in my opinion these were features which added little to the game in the first place.

Oblivion was broken, though was largely loved by non-fans of the series. How is that evolution? That isn't to say that people who liked Morrowind couldn't like Oblivion. It just seems like many long-term fans were put off by it.

I was agreeing to a certain extent to everything you were saying until I got to this post. To me this angle of playing RPG's seems very lazy and unimaginative. Maybe its more down to you being ingrained with the classic DnD system thats the issue. Either way Every so called 'choice' that you say has to be made by stats, could also be just as easily be made by the playing character. I could argue the contrary and say, a 'lack' of stats leaves more room for the player to choose wether his character would be able to do said thing or not. Make it his own thing entirely rather than being restricted by a statistical inevitability.

While some people may need to rely on stats to make decisions for them. Other people like to make it their own fantasy and simply play the role of the thief climbing in through the roof, or battling in through the front door, simply as a choice of role play without the need for a 'statistical backing' that for all intents and purposes only applies 'license' that said character would be able to do so.

Maybe some people are just arsy about how rigidly they stick to the self supported suspension of disbelief. In my opinion the consolidation of the character progression system and streamlining of a lot of the game mechanics has made for a more fluent and fulfilling gameplay experience. But thats just me (and I'm an old school RPG fan).

In complaining that Skyrim feels a lot more 'dumbed down', are you failing to give credit to the depth and integration of ES lore into this title in the series? The unique crafting of each interior and the whole of the exterior enviroment, the more engaging side quests and exploration random encounters/backstories and more? To me, this title has bought back the feeling of a living and breathing world that Oblivion lacked. Bought back the feeling of Tamrielle, the racial and political strife, the theological discord. The underlying narrative and attention to detail within the narrative and continuity of the world.

I do feel like I'm back in tamrielle again, something Oblivion direly lacked. Yes the stats system may not be so 'player driven' any more, but it's still there. Now, instead of having to manually choose what goes where, which always follows a specific pattern anyway, now the system does it for you, if you use magic a lot, you become more powerful with magic and can learn better spells. You can use what you want to, how you want to, when you want to and the system will automatically evolve you character based on your actions in game. What about that don't you like? Its as far as i can tell exactly the same as it used to be, except with the middle man cut out, not to mention actually fixed now and logical as opposed to the illogical levelling system in previous ES games.

Playing a Stealthy Illusionist, Enchanter Alchemist is Still perfectly viable. The only thing they've 'removed' in my opinion is a broken stats system that required you to have to 'work' the system in order to make sense of the character you wanted to actually make! ( We all remember having to put things we were never going to use as our majors purely as a means of leveling efficiently ).

Those days are gone, and the redundant system has been replaced with another system that works just as well in terms of character development, in my opinion. I'm really enjoying Skyrim, like, majorly enjoying Skyrim. You should really try not get so hung up on this 'purist' stuff, the game is amazing.

Principles of science are completely and utterly irrelevant for the anology. It rather seems to me that you do not understand the term "anology" at all. It offers a comparison, not identity.

Wow. This place has gotten pretty bad since I joined three years ago. :/

Skyrim has absolutly been simplified to cater to the console and mainstream mass market. It's really just economics 101, and it svcks for the longtime TES fans.

Please specify where you draw the line between role-playing and simple storytelling. The "statistical backing" here is nothing but the equivalent of the law of gravity, Newton's axioms and the physical properties of the character, the wall, the front door etc. Playing a role means being limited by the capabilities of that role - in a p&p game, that is enacted by either a game master or the implicit social contract of the group. In a cRPG, these limits have to be enacted by other means. Since in the end, all a computer can do is precisely that - compute, i.e. juggle numbers - such limits invariably come down to visible or invisible statistics.

Contrary to your claims, this has nothing to do with D&D style gaming, because it is equally true for any other form of roleplaying whatsoever - there is some kind of contract as to what's possible. A player (he/she is the one making the decisions, not the character) making all decisions as to what's possible is not playing a role but playing God.



You are the one failing to understand the difference between the depth of LORE and the depth of the GAME. As for the underlying narrative, one of Germany's most respected newspapers, the weekly "Zeit" pointed out that the vast array of things you could do managed to make their reviewer overlook the flimsiness of the story. So much for "narrative".



Being able to use what you want to how you want to is hardly the hallmark of a credible world. And describing a levelling system with perks as "logical" is quite a stretch.



No, we don't - only those for whom "efficiency" is a goal at all. For those interested in playing a character and having it interact with a world, it isn't. Life isn't efficient.

No one required you to "work" the system. That was your choice - and in doing so, it was you who broke the stats system. It wasn't meant for your style of playing. And now that you get a game fit for your style, you lambast others as "purists", lazy, and uncreative.

Sounds quite selfish to me - you are entitled to your style of gaming, but others aren't

So what you are saying is that a solution to dumbed down game is just to implement more stuff, and up the quantity as opposed to the quality which this guy is talking about?

Without stats, it may feel like you have more freedom to do what you want, but imagination only goes so far. Your character would essentially be generic, there would be no sense of progression or development, combat would largely be determined by your own skill instead of your characters, and there would be little or no consequences to your character's actions in the gameworld.

It would essentially be an action-adventure game. Sure, there's nothing stopping you "roleplaying" in an action-adventure game... but without stats, the experience is very lacking.



I said that Skyrim is dumbed down in terms of RPG elements - not dumbed down in every way possible. As an open-world game, it's gone in the other direction and actually feels more complex than previous TES games.


Progression just feels too simple now, especially with attributes gone. My character essentially starts out as generic [insert race], with the only unique thing about them being their appearance. When I level up, I basically alternate between Health and Stamina - which says very little at all about who my character is. And skill progression feels far too reliant on perks. It feels like i'm just working towards the next milestone that unlocks the next perk in the tree, and that's it. 40 levels later I've maxed out all of the skill trees i'm interested in and my character doesn't really feel unique at all.

Is 50+ hours a "long run"? Because it feels pretty long to me. And yet somehow, I'm still having fun with this game.

"Dumbed down" doesn't mean "I no longer have to keep an Excel window open in the background while I play."

I've been playing these games since 1996, and I like Skyrim fine.

I don't mind the changes. In many ways, I actually prefer them. I still love Morrowind and like Oblivion, but it works for me.

I find it weird that people are stuck on RPGs always being the same. Trying to make all CRPGs as much like tabletop RPGs when designers can actually take advantage of the medium strikes me as a waste of time. Don't get me wrong - I love CRPGs that actually emulate tabletops pretty closely, but I also like that developers are exploring outside that box and trying new things.

I feel I have more options than in any previous TES before. You say the perks that add pure damage, as part of a specialization (role-playing), is boring. The same could be said about oblivions skills. "adds more damage". Boring. And there's not even the option to specialize into something specific. Morrowinds skills were even worse, due to the chance to fail and chance to not actually hit someone. That's not role-playing. Unless you role-play a guy who can't hit sh*t. Too bad that can't be role-played anymore.

Skyrim makes me want, more than any game ever before, role-play. I have more options than ever, so it can't possibly be dumping down.

Let's see... An ancient refrigerator sized computer or a laptop...?

It has not really been dumbed down.
Problem is that it didnt improve either. When it comes to the mechanics it is pretty much still Morrowind - a game that was made pretty much at the beginning of 3D games.
There have been lots of improvements in games, especially when it comes to batte mechanics, also general physics and Multiplayer.
I believe it is due to the special System TES as well as Fallout are using. Very good to add much content, very bad when it comes to the game mechanics it seems.
Consoles hardware probably cant handle an improvement in other areas in addition to the content since it is very old and outdated, so no improvements until new consoles get out since Bethesda seems to develope their games for them.
Maybe they will make an PC exclusive MMORPG (because thats the only way to make as much or more money with a PC exclusive than with a console hardware restricted title) at some point, it would be much better due to three or four times better hadrdare giving them more options.

No, you're just stuck in the past and think more useless crap is good.

I shouldn't have to search an entire dungeon for a single piece of armor.

I don't need to have charts upon charts of numbers to determine simple stats like effects, damage, healing, etc.

I shouldn't have to restart my game or reload when I put the wrong points into the wrong skill that flips my playing dynamic over its head or is useless in the long run.

I don't need to be offered hundreds of weapon, item, skill, class, or spell options, when only a quarter of them are actually useful or fun.

I don't need to have my races limited to the point where only only or two play-styles are possible or at least effective.

Complexity and quantity isn't always good. Sometimes, it's bloody cumbersome and overwhelming. Now granted, you can make some arguments about the dumbing down of Skyrim. I'm not saying that chinks in the system don't exist, especially in the field of its skill system when you're at a high level, some(or maybe a lot of) needless perks, poor ally AI and the "one size fits all" races; but it's still one of the best RPGs out there if not the entire series.

Either get mods to fix your personal problems with Skyrim, or don't play the game and buy another series that has the intricacy you desire.

I have difficulty calling perks an improvement. It went from a system where most of the "perk" increases were directly related to skill level and stats, to breakpoint "Oh you hit 30 in Destruction, heres the 'option' to get 25% more Shock damage." It's not an option at all, it's something you need to keep up with the rest of the game. All of the % damage increases/spell cost reductions should have been left tied to your level in that skill rather than trying to create the illusion you have choices. Most of the perks were automatically gained as well in Oblivion, they aren't even new ones for the most part. You don't gain much with the perk system other than a button you need to click on in the skill screen for even more screwed up balance for casters that aren't abusing the -100% cost reductions from enchanting. Yeah we still have those incredibly broken mechanics, just like being able to eliminate every penalty wearing heavy armor gives you, at least light gets increased stamina regen this time I guess.

This brings us right back to the removal of all the other stats and skills. Everything you had effected everything. There's very few options to get on a piece of armor anymore along with even more slots being merged together. Alchemy is pretty much the same thing for everything. Getting that best suit of armor in the game is completely trivial, even more so when you can master smithing from Iron Daggers alone at the start of the game. There's very little reason to go out in the world and try to gather anything when you can just buy everything for very cheap from any given NPC in the world. The stocks they have refill often with large quantities. I've never looked at a shop and thought maybe this is too expensive to buy rather than get myself including the added weight of tools. I could also find any given weapon or armor depending on my level in the game, the same can't be said for spell books. I don't know what area of the game was improved removing most of the spells and everything related to utility like Open.

Some of you might view these as good changes but I find them incredibly boring and poorly thought out.

/e

I would love it if mods could fix most of these problems but I have doubts you will get that much control.

EXACTLY why the anology is terrible. Thank you for proving my point



The person to which I replied absolutely and in-arguably did offer a comparison, correct. He didn't 'identify' one thing with the other, he said that it was similar to the 'evolution' of a flight sim to an arcade game. The anologue was the simulation and the target was a TES game. That makes it an anology; you're online. Look it up. You don't need to use the classical linguistic formula to make an anology. Stop being anyone's teacher; you don't know what you're talking about

I agree with Halthor.

Complexity is not necessarily a good thing and certainly does not equate with skill or intelligence. In fact most games that are heavy on "stats" are mind numbingly boring grinders that require no skill or intelligence at all to play with a huge emphasis on meta gaming. While this might be what "RPG" fans like, it has nothing at all to do with RP.

The further TES moves away from dice rolling and stats grinding the better imo. I would like to see this go further, the more I use a spell the better it gets. None of this "25% increase to such and such" perks. Perks should just give you new skills/abilities, not arbitrary number increases. I suppose they leave this stuff in there for the meta gaming/RPG crowd.

The fact that Skyrim is tending away from being a standard dungeon grinder (focus on loot, meta gaming, attribute farming) in favour of dynamic events, player skill and organic skill progression is absolutely brilliant imo.

And if you want a real RP experience go and play a tabletop game, a MUSH or LARP. The most important thing for RP, imo, is other people to interact with. Something which by definition a sp game will never have.

just because the stats have been dumbed down doesn't mean the true rpg elements in the game have been dumbed down.