Skyrim is a good game, but I can't help but feel that with each new Elder Scrolls game, more and more RPG elements are being expunged. Now, when players level up, they get to choose amongst only rock, paper, and--oops; I meant magika, stamina, and health. And then players get to choose 1 boring perk. Perks such as, taken from the Destruction tree,

• Most destruction spells will stagger an opponent when dual cast.
  
• Dual casting a Destruction spell overcharges the effects into an even more powerful version.
  
• Shock damage disintegrates targets if their health is low.
  
• Shock spells do 50% more damage.
  
• Cast Novice level Destruction spells for half magicka.
  
• Cast Apprentice level Destruction spells for half magicka.
  
• Cast Adept level Destruction spells for half magicka.
  
• Cast Expert level Destruction spells for half magicka.
  
• Cast Master level Destruction spells for half magicka.
  
• Can place runes five times farther away.
  
• Fire spells do 25% more damage.
  
• Fire spells do 50% more damage.
  
• Fire damage causes targets to flee if their health is low.
  
• Frost spells do 25% more damage.
  
• Frost spells do 50% more damage.
  
• Frost damage paralyzes targets if their health is low.
  
• Shock spells do 25% more damage.

That's it. The perks that I underlined are the only interesting ones. The others are uninteresting, redundant, and probably should have just been automatic for magic users.

There are also not that many spells--and no spell creation to partially offset that fact. Let's say you made a "fire mage," in the end you'll only end up with a total of 8 spells; and 6 of which are truly unique. To make matters worse, these 6 spells aren't even all that interesting. Basically, there's the projectile spell, the damage shield spell, the DOT spell, and the trap spell. To be fair though, this was also a problem in past Elder Scrolls games; however, in those games players were able to create there own spells.

And the dragon shouts come off as a gimmick to me. Sure, they're visually impressive and fun to use the first few times, but many of them overlap with other skills/spells. The shouts even overlap with each other somewhat. For instance, why are there two cold shouts? Yes, one is primarily for crowd control while the other is for damage, but why weren't they combined into one shout? I think you guys (Bethesda) should have focused more on quality rather than quantity in this regard.

Another issue I had with Skyrim was the dialogue options. What you say doesn't seem to impact the world, your character, or NPCs all that much. In other words, dialogue options are more about leading you to some linear encounter or quest as opposed to giving you the opportunity to flesh out your character. To role-play, if you will.

In conclusion, the Elder Scrolls series is starting to feel more like Duke Nukem than a first-person RPG.

So hold on. You complain about the game being dumbed down, yet you are asking for 2 shouts to be merged into 1? Because what you just suggested is considered dumbing down.

For the people who are on a crusade to accuse Elder Scrolls of becoming more dumbed down, do you people actually know what you're talking about?

I wouldn't say the game has been dumbed down. Each iteration in the series has gotten more focused.

I dunno, getting the archery perks has actually changed the gameplay for me. Looking forward to my second playthrough to see some of the later perks for abilities I've been ignoring.

When has "fire mage" ever been a build? Fire is 1/3 of ONE school of magic.

So yeah, if you're using 1/15 of the spells, you'll be using few spells

.....

I mean, if you dislike that, it would be incredibly easy to add conjuration for summon and bound weapon, illusion for fear/calm/frenzy and paralyze, restoration for healing and wards. Suddenly you have more spells than you can reasonably use.

Don't use destruction if you don't like it. There are other magic schools that can do damage if you master them.

If you expected any real discussion you kinda came to the wrong place. thing is don't focus on the term RPG, ultimately that phrase is a buzz word and most just associate with "What I can think about, having no effect on the game" you're better off saying...stats or RPG mechanics. but saying removing RPG elements is just asking for a circular run around argument.

I wouldnt call it dumbing down, they just took attributes and some skills, but they also added different kind of skills like smithing and enchanting what we didnt have in oblivion. If this game had attributes, athletics, acrobatics and spellcrafting it would be the best TES game i have played. Removing those kind of feels like they removed some of the freedom in the game.

RPG elements have only been expanded. NPC interactions, dialogue lines you can select, job activities like mining and woodcutting, etc.

It was the range of spells and skills and stats that was "dumbed down."

I prefer to think of it as streamlined, instead of dumbed down, considering how you play TES games. Skyrim is the most fluid of the series because of the way they set up the skills.

I am saddened by the spell list in Skyrim when compared to even Oblivion, though. I was really looking forward to flying since I assumed "Hey, dragons fly! That means I can too!"

Well, fire was originaly more like 1/5 of the destruction school, but Poison and Damage have been removed.

Dumb down, streamlined same thing both mean simple and thats what happened not even the good kind either where an complicated aspect was made understandable, nah whats going on here is the bare minimum, might be fluid but that fluidity holds no water in the long run.

I do find the character creation to be less useful than Oblivion.

example-
Redguard Adrenaline Rush-

Oblivion-
Fortify Agility
Fortify Speed
Fortify Strength
Fortify Endurance
Fortify Health

Skyrim-
Stamina Regen.

I miss not being able to use this race talent for the boss battles.

Yes the words mean the same thing, but the term "dumbed down" has a negative connotation to it.

Fluidity is great in open world sandbox RPGs like the Elder Scrolls. Less time in menus, thinking about how to make your guy, and more time just playing the game the way you want.

Would more skills make the game better? IMO, not really. All the skills that were removed either were redundant (every single weapon type as a separate skill) or irrelevant to the balance/direction of the game (Acrobatics, Athletics).

Would more weapons, spells and armor types make it better? Most definitely. It would be nice to have crossbows, spears, morning stars, throwing knives, blowdarts, etc but all that would really add to the game is more interesting ways to basically do the same thing: Kill something.

Dumbed down, streamlined. Not sure if those are the right words; someone already pointed that out. Feel more like the series is switching genres, or incorporating different ones. Even the ancient TES1: Arena was originally meant to be an action game (before they went all-in with the roleplaygame elements "everyone" know and love, which Daggerfall expanded on).

For better or worse, considering evolving media and expectations and competitions, yadayada imo, yea, the series have been gradually changing.

---
edittyposlolfriday

I do believe the series has been getting simpler and simpler to appeal to a less motivated audience.

As a random for-instance, armor. In Morrowind you had left and right gauntlets, left and right pauldrons, boots, greaves, cuirass, and helm. In Skyrim you have boots, gauntlets, "armor", and helm. The available slots for armor have been halved, and as a result, your ability to customize your appearance or enchantments has also been halved. Morrowind also allowed you to wear clothing and armor together. Heck, it let you wear a skirt as a male character if you wanted to (standard uniform for the Legion). Maybe not all people really took advantage of all the options, but there were options. I loved to wear a newtscale cuirass over an exquisite shirt; it looked very nice. You can't do anything like that anymore.

Another for-instance: equipment maintenance. You no longer have to worry about your equipment wearing out. There's now one less "consumable" item that you have to worry about while adventuring. Running out of tools to maintain your gear used to be a real thing: do you go back and get more tools, or do you press forward and hope your weapon doesn't fall apart before you can get back to civilization?

Magic. They took away the ability to make your own spells. Their pre-made options all look very nice, but because you can't actually change anything you are not a master of magic you are a magic consumer. You buy a spell off the shelf and it just works. And if there's not a spell that does what you want it to do well, tough luck. Half the spell effects from previous games are simply gone.

Several things that many players saw as complexity and annoyance, a more dedicated roleplayer saw as immersion and and freedom. So, is Skyrim "dumbed down"? Yes. It's still a good game, certainly more polished than their previous offerings. But the removal of gameplay elements and the removal of many ways for your character to be an individual has resulted in a simpler experience that is more hack and slash and less strategy, roleplay, or thought.

Morrowind is still Bethesda's greatest game ever.

I strongly disagree on the NPC part.You can only talk to people if they are quest related now.I cannot ask a guard about directions anymore,even if they were to answer "I don't know".You cannot talk to people about random things,for example I want to ask people about their opinion and which side they are on,but I can only hope they will randomly say it when I activate them.I hear something from them,about a location or person,but if the quest isn't activated at that moment than I cannot look back into it.

Morrowind's journal and unvoiced dialouge box were godly compared to this.You could find the topics you've talked with NPCs from it and re-read their directions or tips over and over.For example,I had missed Ulfric and Thalmor when I first started the game,people would go on talking about them and I went nuts over who they were.I couldn't ask a single guy about it because there were no topics,and no journal that kept the dialouge records.

The only role play element that is improved in this game is crafting system I think.But it is very fun,a great addition.
I think skills like survival,medicine,science(crafting) skills from FO were necessary for the game though.The fact that you could get extra dialouge lines if you had sufficient skill in FO was very good,I'm a little disappointed they left skill-based dialouge options out.But this is because there are no related skills I think.



On perks,I totally agree with the OP.They are very poor and boring when compared to FO's mechanic-changing perks.Nearly all of them are statistics.Bows get %60 more damage...Fire spells get %25 more damage...
Why not let such changes be governed by the skill itself? If I'm getting %60 more damage by marksman level 30,than make it so that bows get %2 stronger each time I improve the marksman skill.What good are skills right now actually? They do not govern your hit rate,your damage...Are they only mere unlock numbers for the perks? Seems so.

Perks in Skyrim more or less is what they were in Oblivion except here you get to choose, not dumbing down? The big "dumb down" happened between Morrowind and Oblivion.

5 people said "Yes and it's awesome?" Why are you on these boards if you don't like RPGs?

There's a fine line between "dumbing down" and streamlining. In most ways, I would say the RPG experience in Skyrim has been streamlined. With a computer RPG, much of the tedious casting of dice, writing down stats on paper etc. can be "hidden" and handled by the computer behind the scenes instead. Of course some players view those things as the actual RPG experience, actually assuming the role of another character and living a life in another world is secondary...

I consider that eliminating redundancy, not dumbing down the game.

One example of dumbing down a RPG would be removing a character customization option like stat distribution--or removing the number of stats that one can modify. You see, the whole idea behind a RPG (or D&D) is to create a character! And the more options and tools you have available, the easier it is to create the type of character that you want.

Unfortunately, the Elder Scrolls series went from,

"Agility
Controls your chance to hit enemies, as well as to dodge their attacks. Also reduces your chance to get knocked down in combat.
Endurance
Controls your starting and maximum Health, and your maximum Fatigue. Also slows down fatigue loss while running, and while fighting.
Intelligence
Controls your maximum Magicka.
Luck
Helps everything you do in a small way.
Personality
Controls how much people like you, and the prices you get at vendors.
Speed
Controls your rate of movement when walking, running, swimming, or levitating.
Strength
Controls the damage you cause with weapons, as well as how much you can carry. It also helps determine your maximum Fatigue and starting Health. Strength also factors into how your weapon durability degrades on each successful hit: Higher strength means higher weapon degradation.
Willpower
Controls your odds of success at spellcasting and your chance to resist Magicka. It also determines your maximum Fatigue."

to

Magicka, health, and stamina.

It's like I said before: the Elder Scrolls series is being turned into your typical console first-person shooter.



You've never heard or read about a person role-playing a fire mage? How about role-playing a destruction mage? In the latter case, the mage would use lightning and ice as well, but there isn't that much difference between the fire, lightning, and ice spells. They all share the same basic formula (a projectile spell, a dot spell, a trap spell, an AOE spell). Yes, lightning drains magic, ice drains stamina, etc., but that's not enough of a difference. Where are the meteors? Why don't NPCs slip on ice? Why doesn't lighting do extra damage against armor wearers? Why can't we electrocute enemies by zapping the water they're standing in?



Most of which don't have any noticeable impact to gameplay. Most dialogue options lead to the same predetermined quests and information. Usually, you get to choose either the sarcastic [censored] reply or the goody two-shoes reply; but typically they both lead to exactly the same thing.

You can't even ask guards for information anymore. You can only interact with certain NPCs.

If you don't have the stats, then you cannot extrapolate the character to paper or a video game. Without stats the character only exists conceptually (in your head).

And you can't make much of a character with only three stats to choose from--magicka, health, and stamina--and a number of uninspired "perks."

Stats aren't everything, but they're the building blocks of your character. Ideally, there should be a good number of them that are all varied and useful.

I still find it funny when people think because Bethesda got rid of attributes and gave us the perk system instead that its "dumbing down". I find myself asking, wonder what it would had been like if it was reversed. As if we played the TES games prior with a perk system and then in Skyrim they came out with attributes... we are taking away the perk system which gave you choices/paths you could make to adjust your characters attack dmg/consumption rate/bonus traits for actions/etc., and we are just giving you 8 different numbers you can pick 3 of to advance every level. Maybe it's just me, but I still find the perk system better. I also think that in future TES releases that they can take this system alot further than the basic x y z numbers and really build upon it. That's my opinion though anyways.

I don't see this as an either or situation. It'd like eight varied and useful stats and a perk system.

Further, the perk system as it is now leaves much to be desired. Most of the perks are boring and uninspired.

The RPG side of the series has most definitely been dumbed down, which is a shame.

But you can still go out and explore the world, fight monsters, crawl through dungeons, collect loot, and complete quests... which is what most TES fans seem to want: - the action-adventure experience. When you try and explain to them how stats can add a lot more depth to the experience, it seems to go straight over their heads.

This says it all.

On a side note, let's be cool for a moment with the fact that they got rid of attributes and lots of skills. What is their justification for getting rid of the point distribution system in the character creation process? Why does every character I create have to basically have no skills whatsoever? This is quite annoying from an RP perspective. They've effectively reduced the character creation process to a triviality - essentially all you do now is just choose how your character looks. Even the racial advantages have been significantly downsized.