NO **** it is. When I played MW when it came out, I NEVER, NEVER looked to cheat, I had patience and finished it. I considered it ok and not hard. Played Oblivion after and......so last month I started a new character on MW, hard as ........ I spent 15 minutes looking for a dungeon and had to cheat where it is. It was right there. Thats not fun. So maybe the marker in Oblivion spoiled me but now I like it. OTHER games make you go their way, 1 path and they even bring you there, fight the enemies and then the boss.

So Oblivion may be easier than MW but fun, a game should be fun and OK challenge.



Tamalak told me, thanks.

On behalf of the skills i'd say Daggerfall had a nice list but some of them WHERE unnecessary. People just saying "bring back all skill from Daggerfall" didn't really think about it in my opinion, it really needs to be thought about which are needed, which are not and which can be combined and where they should be split up.

I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I found Oblivion to be sufficiently complex, both in terms of mechanics and in terms of gameworld/things to do.

That said, RPGs ahve never sold well compared to other genres of videogames, and the market for PC games has been greatly diminished in favor of consoles. These two trends tend to favor the easier games. Oblivion was designed to appeal to the console gamers, and I would expect that trend to continue, much to the detriment to us old school RPGers.

You're not even reading :rolleyes:

Oblivion was not too easy for me, and even if it were I could just shift the difficulty slider

Someone should chisel this into granite.
As depressing as it sounds, this is it. Morrowind was "as good as it gets" and it'll drop from there.
With younger crowds interested, the schemes must be simpler. Imagine trying to find a dungeon on your own! Wow!

As I've said elsewhere, a lot of it is in what you're expecting. Someone can complain about the lack of complexity in Oblivion, then turn around and play Super Mario Bros., a game whose complexity can be boiled down to "jump over some things, jump into other things." Different game types, and what you'd expect of them, can be harmed by more or less depth. Does anyone want to have to separately equip their block-breaking gloves and gooma-stomping boots and jumping pants over and over in Mario? Would the people who defend Oblivion like it more if it were stripped down until the only thing you were capable of was jumping? I can easily say something like, "Oblivion is a terrible puzzle game." And it really is, but that's because it's not a puzzle game and never tried to be. You can argue about what Oblivion is...but that's not really what everyone is talking about. A lot of people hate Oblivion because it's not what they expected to take out of the box.

hardcoe RPG's are a very small part of the market. Everyone has their preferences, and no one is "wrong" for liking them. However, capitalism doesn't much care about the minority demographics. If 100 games come out per year and only 1 is the genre you like, you probably won't be happy. If you buy a game that claims to be that one and find it's one of the other 99 instead, you're going to be less happy. Put frankly, the hardcoe RPG fans get screwed, and naturally, have every right to be unhappy about that. Oblivion was looked toward as something they could enjoy, and turned out to be something else. Casual gamers aren't wrong for their preferences, hardcoe gamers aren't wrong for theirs, and companies aren't wrong for catering to larger demographics in order to succeed in business. So, you end up with the unusual situation where a group of people is being genuinely and mercilessly shafted every year, yet also have genuinely nobody whose "fault" it is. Oblivion doesn't really deserve the degree of hate it gets; do the same people bring in other, simpler games to yell at? It's just the unfortunate scapegoat. You have a lot of rage floating in the air with nowhere to go, so it gets aimed at the easiest targets; the game that wasn't what was claimed, the players who don't buy the tougher things, the companies who don't take risks on niche genres. When those entities defend themselves, you have the minority players shrugged off as elitists, blinded by nostalgia, wrong in whatever ways...arguments as frequently illogical as the anger they throw back. Instead of solving anything, those responses basically push them back further into the corner, often coming across as "yeah, your favorite games don't get made...and they don't deserve to be."

So, you end up with pissy shoutfests of whatever vs whatever threads where the actual game details don't even really matter. Just target-hungry anger snapping at the nearest object which snaps back with a wounded lack of sympathy toward any valid points.

There is no difficulty in finding a dungeon on one's own. It isn't that hard but it is very time consuming and assuming one has limited time to play a video game, it cuts into time that could be used enjoying completion of an interesting quest. I assure you there was no quest as detailed and interesting in MW as the Dark Brotherhood quests in Oblivion. Lots of gray area to be considered in some of those. Very detailed. A compass does not remove the complexity of the quests but rather provides some direction that saves massive amounts of time. And I don't know about others but my time is rather valuable. I limit myself to about two hours a day of gaming and if it takes me twenty minutes to get there and then another ten to get back...I have spent a quarter of my time just looking for something that. Wasted time for me but not difficult at all.

I can't think of a quest in Morrowind that was as complex as the "Dinner Party" in Oblivion. Or as chilling as "the hunt" (whatever that quest is called where they are putting folks into a dungeon for the sport of hunting them. And if you count Shivering Isles, there is just nothing as complex and interesting in MW despite the fact that I enjoyed MW just a bit more due to the setting. And what puzzles in MW where more complicated than those in KoTN?

I don't see it. I really don't. But as I have said, I love both of them as well as the overly buggy Daggerfall...I just see improvements which allow me to spend more time playing and less time running in circles. There is nothing complex about finding a dungeon...just time consuming for nothing.

I agree here. A lot of the DF skills were unneccessary and added nothing to the game, the creature language skills particularly.

I'll say it again though. None of the TES games had complex game mechanics and they aren't neccessary to a RPG. Compare creating a DF character to a NWN or NWN2 character. Takes about 10 minutes compared to the planning out every level and feat taken thats neccessary to get what you want in NWN.
Simple but flexible mechanics combined with good plots and interesting lore are what make a good RPG IMO.

And just like that you dismiss the element of exploration in an RPG? The spoken directions in Morrowind were sometimes frustrating but they were part of what made it so immersive. Getting to my destination actually involved looking at the terrain and the landmarks - the WORLD - instead of the glowing green beacon the devs put in to hold my hand.

Sure it was time consuming but I'd rather spend my 2 hours immersed in one quest than blowing through 4 of them.

And what really galls is the devs did not even include an OPTION to get rid of my magical quest-and-dungeon finding radar. Like they couldn't even CONCIEVE that ANYONE would want to explore on their own.

Put it on the Seeking Your Roots quest. No more radar. Problem solved.

I read it and what you trying to say by saying, "You're not even reading.", this is my feedback. Not every one has to agree or disagree with someone.

I'd like to add that with the compass, I hope they'll take Fallout 3's compass and work it a bit.

In Fallout 3, you also had the icons popping in your compass telling you that you're getting close to a map marker, but it did not tell what it was (Dungeon, Camp, Base, etc). Would be great with the icons, is that they pop only when you're pretty close to them, instead of showing up from too far away.

And with quest markers, I believe Fallout 3 did it pretty good, compared to Oblivion. If you have to take an item from a dungeon, the quest marker would only point towards the dungeon itself, since the quest giver would tell you how to actually get there. (Something not present in Oblivion) In that case, the quest marker is helpful since you are basicly following the directions given to you by the quest giver. Once inside the dungeon, you're on your own to find the item.

While in Oblivion, especially with the Thieves Guild, the quests pointed directly to the item you needed to steal. That pretty much kills the fun in exploring the location to find the prized possession. Thief's missions didn't included a quest marker to show the marked item. You had to do some scouting, listening to conversations, find hints.


So, all being said. I'm sure that for TESV, a lot of gameplay elements that were present in Oblivion but fixed in Fallout 3 will make a comeback. And I hope they will. (And please Beth, give us a good Journal/Log! Not "I should do this", "I should do that".)

You're not even reading, as in, your feedback/rebuttals have nothing to do with my posts.

I still have the compass giving away where every single dungeon/town/significant landmark within 50 miles is. No exploration permitted.

I haven't dismissed exploration at all and in fact there are multiple quests in Oblivion that encourage exploration. Finding those bottles of wine, praying at the shrines, ninroot...and the compass does not point you to where any of those are unless it is someplace you have been. I found many reasons to explore in Oblivion without some lousy directions that were sometimes incorrect. And I don't blow through quests but rather ponder them and enjoy the journey through them. And I had much rather enjoy a more complex quest than a fetch it or deliver it quest which was much more common in MW than Ob.

And what about the compass causes one to not be able to explore on their own. I explored almost the entire map before doing my first quest. I loved the exploration and a compass does not stop that in any way. Just as taking a compass with me when I hike through the woods does not keep me from enjoying the trek...though it has assisted me in finding my way home. All explorers carry a compass.

What I enjoy in life and in my RPGs is the journey and Daggerfall, MW, Oblivion, Fallout 3 have all been awesome journeys for me as was Bloodlines, NWN and several others. There is nothing like a good sandbox to play in and Bethesda continues to give me very varied and interesting sandboxes in which to play.

I wrote my reply to Oblivion compared to Morrowind not your post above. I am the one who asked you, compared to what, not your quote. So my post was my morrowind to oblivion to morrowind comparison.



So.

one of the things i disliked about oblivion compared to morrowind was that it was felt quite empty even though it was large and the setting(while beautiful at fast and in screenshots) got really boring fast since it was basically the same all over with some small variance. Morrowind was smaller than oblivion yet was more varied and had more things to see and explore

I agree with whoever made the statement about the exploration some of my fondest memories was just looking for a quest location and exploring in the process. I remember the first time I found a set of Orcish armor at a Daedra ruin because I missed my quest target :]

Oblivion isn't really that much more simple then Morrowind. It would appear that way but if you think about the mechanics of Oblivion, for example horses and all the amazing scripting work, oblivion has far more options. Fast travel and compass ( even though i do not like them ) are very complex. Same goes with horses, houses, the arena, the less glitches, ect.

But i still perfer MW...

i skipped alot of posts, so in terms of going casual, i think tht alot of ppl bought OB, but the ones who never played any of the earlier ones probably wont stay with the series. from ppl i know, all they care about is multiplayer, and to them a game like OB was fun for a bit and got boring, and said they prob wouldnt buy the next ES game. Of those people the ones who played fallout went on to try OB and liked fallout much more, and would prob only buy the next fallout game. also they like the gore in tht game and think it would be cool in TES. So, wht im trying to say is alot of gamers who just like gore and multiplayer, and whtever else, i dont think theyll be future supporters of the game, due to it going so casual. cause even ppl who dont play the crap out of games, can still enjoy a really good game aka MW.

This is fact. hardcoe RPG'ers are vastly outnumbered by casual gamers, as evidenced by Wii and Wii-shovelware sales. There is no financial reason for Bethesda to make a game that will appeal to those of us who enjoy more niche, complex games. The sales for Morrowind probably are the sales ceiling for that kind of game. Oblivion's sales were much greater because everyone who played Morrowind thought they were going to get a Daggerfall/Morrowind-esque experience, and tons of others bought it overtime as they discovered how accessible (read: easy and simplistic) it was. It was also a relatively early title on a new system which drove sales.

I for one will wait on buying the next title until I know definitively it's less dumbed down and hand-holding than Oblivion.

Oblivion was the least challenging RPG I've ever played. And you're wrong, it is more simplistic. The very things you list make it clear that you are of the "can't stand to delay gratification" generation. Run from quest objective to quest objective as fast as possible, not "wasting time" by you know, exploring anything, or running into unforseen events or obstacles. You probably also like to get crossword puzzles with the words already filled in to 'save you time.' Go ahead warn me or ban me.

There was anything to explore between missions?
Not to bash Oblivion too hard (still like the game even though it was inferior to Morrowind in my opinion) but there really wasn't much else aside the quests, honestly after playing through it and finished most missions I quickly lost interest. The only thing appealing was installing “unique landscapes” and enjoying how modders set up the environment (followed those long rivers for hours).

Big part of that was the respawning based dungeons, you just went in, found the same generic stuff you found everywhere else and left again.
And the landscape, really, there wasn't much to find. There where barely any secrets to find, nothing really new, the design wasn't really great... there simply wasn't anything to discover which greatly discouraged exploring. I mean, saw one cave, you saw all; saw one imperial ruin, saw all; saw one elven ruin, saw all... hell even the towns, been in one, congratulations, everything you find there will also be in all other towns.

Basically, the only thing interesting WHERE the missions (and most not even THAT interesting).
Morrowind did a bit better there, exploring was actually worth it, though thanks to being able to screw up potential missions so badly that kinda discouraged it again.

I am of no such generation. And while I don't mind that you disagree, you are making assumptions and judgements that are just not true. And, I love my crossword puzzles that make me think thus hate the little run like hell through it ones that seem to be part of all those little books folks take on planes. Give me one to spend a week on.

Sorry you found the simplicities of Oblivion, I found the depth of the quests, especially in Dark Brotherhood and Shivering isles to be much deeper than any quest in Morrowind. Yet...for some reason I still like morrowind more. :shrug: Possibly the setting was more to my liking.

However I stand by my belief that the quests, choices and gray areas as well as the complexity of those quests were much more deep and interesting than the ones in Morrowind.

As I said, you can disagree...as can I. But notice, I have not attacked your opinion nor have I jumped to any conclusions nor insulted your opinions in any way. I am secure in what I believe and have no need to find fault in another because they see something differently than I. And as far as that goes, MW nor Oblivion are difficult in the ways most here are discussing. They are both fairly easy to play and finish.

id like tht freedom back. itd be good if they warned you right when u attcked the person, but when u didnt like them and were done with them, then i want to be able to tee bag them. if not, then they should let u knock them out once, then they forget u attacked and the next time u attack them they should die. when theyre dead u can tee bag their @$$es. yay!

I don't know about the, but it damn sure was.
One my initial thrills in Ob was stumbling across the Arena, and joining. My initial thoughts:
-Cool idea.
-Only one of two teams/uniforms?
-The crowd's not very lively/realistic at all.
-The crowd's cheering was repetitive.
-I'm outside, yet I can't jump/escape to gain an advantage and/or freedom.
-And last: wow, this is easy as Hell.
Yay, everyone look at your new Grand Champion.