Normally I'm not this blunt or rude. And I don't care if I hurt peoples feelings. But this IS how it is. People can say everyone has their own opinions, but only ONE opinion is actually right.

Play Daggerfall. Beat it. Then play Oblivion. Beat it. Now come back here and still say Oblivion is more challenging.

Now if you come back here and say that Oblivion is more challenging or is even close to Daggerfall, you are either: A liar or an idiot. There's no other explanation because you wouldn't be right. I'm not trying to be mean or insult anyone. But this is FACT. Games have gotten much easier and will probably continue to be. Morrowind was a cake-walk compared to Daggerfall. Oblivion was more simple then Morrowind. These are facts. Gamers haven't gotten better. If that were the case play Arena or Daggerfall now. If you manage to get out of either starter dungeon (yeah that's right, in these games you were thrown in a high level dungeon to start the game) then I'll listen to your argument.


Now I'm not saying that older games are better (though I'm sure that's how it sounds). I'm staying on topic. Tell me that these new TES games are not more simplistic then the previous editions to the franchise. You can't.

So what exactly was hard about any of them? I mean...none of them are hard or difficult. Again, the complexity is in the depth and meanings conveyed. They were all simple. I played them all and each one for thousands of hours. They have consumed my life in some ways and I just don't get what folks are calling "simple" and "difficult".

And like it or not, one persons opinion about something subjective is never right for everyone. And what we are talking about now is very subjective. I still can't figure out what was difficult or hard in any of them.

This is a black and white topic though. I really don't know how to explain it. It's like trying to show evidence of gravity. If it's not already obvious, what can be said? I've been playing Daggerfall since the year it was released and I still have trouble in places. I don't remember the last time I came close to dying in Oblivion. Or was stuck at any point. And this isn't just me, it's nearly everyone (in real life mind you) that I've talked to on the issue.

Again, Oblivion was easy to the extent that when you needed to do something, you were told exactly where it was. The Dungeons were very short. And your hand was held to your objective. Daggerfall's distances needed to travel is much further if you go by foot. Which I for one always do. The Dungeons are MASSIVE in Daggerfall. And your objective is rarely in the same place twice.

I'm sorry but I really don't know what else to say if this isn't already painfully apparent.

It could be argued that the same thing is happening with games as is with everything else these days; instead of holding people to standards, things are dumbed down to suit the inept.

maybe youve gotton better at games haha

not meaning to flamebait or whatever the hell that is

Thanks for the compliment. I knew there was something different about me...
Something tingling in my thumb muscles, and a slight increase in reflexes...
I must be evolving. That's it! The games aren't dumber! We're just more awesome!
:toughninja:

a more developed speech but yes gods among men haha

the only thing i dislike really about daggerfall is that the map system is really funky; its easy to get lost because of it. I liked arenas and exploring dungeons in it because it was a simple 2d map and i could make comments on it.

I'm with Undrdog, I'm honestly baffled how anyone who has played them can claim they aren't getting more simple as they 'progress'.

IMO it's a bad thing. But that's just my opinion.

Ive played all four and i agree that oblivion holds your hand through everything. I especially hate the quest arrow that leads me to where i have to go like im all knowing or something. The compass is ok but i hate the quest arrow. Quest giving NPCs should say where to go with directions, and then the location of the cave or building that holds whatever your trying to obtain or kill is marked on your map, but there is no arrow directing you to it. It simplified a little bit from Morrowind but I believe it stills has immersion and exploration to it but it still helps people who are in a rush to find it.

On the bright side, you can play them now.

Sorry, but with a name like that, you're just asking for it.

Except, hate to say it to you, but "easy" doesn't mean "simple." As has already been stated many times, the intricacies of many quests in Oblivion far "out-complex" anything else in the series. In this same vein, "complex" shouldn't mean "hard."

You compare this to showing evidence of gravity. However, if you were to try to apply it to this situation, you would have gravity pulling in both directions, making it not as black and white as you seem to think. Getting stuck in a game doesn't make me like it. Too much of that and I quit. Puzzles like the one where you get the Shield of the Crusader in KoTN are examples of the kind of complexity that is right for TES series. If you try it without thinking, you won't be able to do it, but if you put some time in and reason into it, then you will be able to work your way through it. I don't want any of these massive roadblocks that make me want to leave the game for months on end. (which supposedly enhances my gaming experience... by not letting me play the game? )

What? You can't feel powerful in Oblivion because the leveling-scaling is supposed to keep the game challenging, and it succeeds at higher levels because I can never feel powerful I hate not feeling powerful at higher levels like I can do in Morrowind. I prefer Morrowind's style of starting weak and getting more powerful, but in Oblivion, I can never feel powerful. This style may appeal to more people, but I hate it. However, no, you can't really get powerful in Oblivion.

Accesability isn't going away, because it isn't a money making gimmick but a lobbying movement. Just deal, games won't become any more "complex". I find complexity in the fiction. Let the complex find its refuge in the simple.

Not everyone. That only makes me want to find mods that add some challenge to the otherwise crappy game. THEN try again. And some things can't be modded in, like a skillset that makes sense.


I have to agree. I made a short list of it's shortcomings once, and they are mostly things that devs wanted to make easy and simple.
(I'm comparing it to both TES2 and 3. BUT you notice that TES3 already made some drastic simplifications.)

-Even more skills were cut
-Even more factions were cut
-Fame/infamy instead of social groups and dispositions
-There is still a skillset, but no ability to fail in anything
-Spells become useless very fast and cant be removed.
-Spells dont gain power from your level/skill, unlike enemies
-Even further simplified character creation, expect for the VISUAL part
-Build-in walkthrough and GPS with no alternative
-Trying to solve quests by any other means they intend, is punished
-Few discussion topics with NPCs. No asking for directions or specific info on anything.
-One hour loitering for full health
-Too many heal potions everywhere
-Heal potions can be put behind a hotkey, and you can use as much as you want (almost like godmode)
-Every character begins as a spellcaster
-You can't make a character with a weakness, disadvantage or a lower attribute
-Skill perks that make whole game elements absolete (like noisy boots)
-You REGAIN fatique by running
-No sleeping in an 'owned' bed even if the owner is long dead and no one is around
-Spells are learned every 25 levels, and after that they never fail
-Still no climbing, kicking, dodging, wound treatment or critical strikes
-No levitation, passwall or about a dozen other spells
-No area around caster spell effect
-No cast when used items
-No spears, flails, crossbows, thrown weapons or combat staves
-Still one person can collect all the daedric items and they never vanish
-Very little different clothing
-Merchants have infinite amount of gold but they hand it out only 1000 pieces at a time
-No more trading items
-Every stolen piece of junk has a stolen item tag on them
-Moving someones fork can lead to a mortal duel
-Rich people have nothing worth stealing in their houses
-Main quest is basic good vs evil and chosen one saving the world
-Daedra are further demonized while they still were interesting in Battlespire for example
-Gore, and childish sixual jokes but no real maturity, like gray morals and decisions
-Some quests have obvious hoaxes versus the player, but you have to act stupid to get the quest done
-Caves are tiny and repetitive, and there's never even need to retrace your steps back out thanks to 'handy' immediate exits
-Diseases are always unlethal, vampirism too easy to get and cure
-You can become the leader of all guilds in a matter of days
-You can't lose ranks in guilds
-You can't fail most of the quests
-You can't turn down quests
-Dumb barbarian can be Archmage without much knowledge of magic
-No seasons
-No children

There are many possible meanings to simple.

See, simple can be the opposite of: adorned, complex, complicated, unintuitive, and several other things.

Interfaces, for example, beg for simplicity: not a lot of unnecessary decoration, the controls don't require adaptation on the part of the user, and work gets done in the minimal amount of time. In this area, Morrowind beats Daggerfall slightly (partially because of the improved resolution, but also the move to a windowed UI from an all-in-one menu). Oblivion simplifies the controls, but the gains are less clear in many areas. Large-area map? better. Local map? worse due to the monochromatic local map making it more difficult to gauge terrain changes. Equipping weapons and armor? Mixed: equipping a piece of armor is easier, but FINDING it is not. For rings, the Oblivion interface is a clear step back: the player has less control (I never figured out how to control what ring is replaced, for example) and still may have a large number of items to sort through to find the ring. The *general* interface in Oblivion is indeed more efficient, in that less motion and input is now required to accomplish the same tasks. This fits with the modern guidelines for both productive and ergonomic interface design. That said, there are losses, which, of course, you hope Bethesda can mitigate going forward. Because flexibility is good, too.

Game mechanics cry for uncomplicated, intuitive complexity: It would be quite the fair debate whether Destruction might be better off as an average of the individual effects, which each could be mastered independant of the skill. Progress would be a raw or weighted average of the possible effects. Does this meet the test for intuitive? I'd think so. On some level, given the appropriate interface queues on the stat screens, players will just "get" the concept. While it does make leveling the skill more complicated, it's primarily academic: what you can do for one effect, you can do for another. However, it adds a layer of complexity that could be considered desirable.
On the other hand, the attribute multiplier system strikes a large fraction of the forumbase as unintuitive (the major skills to level system much less so). Between these two systems, which do you think is more likely to get a revision?
On yet another hand, the shift to active blocking, for example, is a bell you won't unring because auto blocking is in no way "intuitive", nor consistant with such in-game books as "The Mirror".
Individual mechanics are endlessly debatable, but it does need to be understood that requiring the player to manually prepare every individual ingredient for Alchemy is "unnecessarily complicated" for even many "serious" gamers, and is best left to RP mods, who have a much smaller audience and are completely optional. There are, however, many other alchemy suggestions you could make that could work within the guidelines that "most people don't feel fulfilled by extra menu busywork", among other things.
Simple, for mechanics, does not mean the opposite of complex: complex mechanics that result in simple, straight-forward effects are pure awesome for a moddable game, if exposed properly to the modders.

Plot-wise, simple and complex are subjective. For instance, some people find the "politics" and such of Morrowind "enrichingly complex", and Martin's tale "simple and boring". I would argue that the forum tends to sell him as a character short: the haunted tone to his voice when talking about daedric magic (conjuration?), for example, brings that part of his life home to me. I wasn't dealing with a carefree priest whose daddy happened to let me out of prison. I was dealing with a person who had a lifetime of regrets, whose very faith was tested as Kvatch burned, and yet, in the end, he found his salvation in his faith. I never viewed the ending as "Septim + Amulet + Temple = Akatosh come forth". To me, Akatosh may have needed the fusion of divine and mortal in the amulet to act, but it took faith, sacrifice, and the fact that Akatosh was more than willing to act to banish Dagon. (In short, it may not have been possible if Cyrodiil was being invaded by Redguards, as Akatosh may have sat that one out. Dagon, on the other hand, he couldn't ignore within the boundaries of his character)

Well you made a lot of points there, I'll try to give some constructive suggestions and ideas for ALL of them:

-Even more skills were cut:
Instead of just bringing back the old skill lists make a NEW one, there ARE a lot of skills that are unnecessary or, in the current state of the game, relatively useless while others are simply missing.
My call is combine them where it makes sense, split them where it makes sense and add new ones where there was something missing.

-Even more factions were cut:
That is true. A way to make that better is to instead have one solid line per faction is have smallers quest chains that can tie into each other but also other factions quest chains.

-Fame/infamy instead of social groups and dispositions:
Definitely needs improvements there but this also requires a BIG improvement how NPC personalities work. So far they ONLY have a stat that determines when they attack you, how are you supposed to build a social system on that alone?

-There is still a skillset, but no ability to fail in anything:
There are a lot of alternatives to just having skill failure, ones that don't feel fake and still reward leveling.

-Spells become useless very fast and cant be removed.:
Definitely needs improvement, one of those "WHY IS THIS SO HAD TO GET RIGHT" points.

-Spells dont gain power from your level/skill, unlike enemies:
Personally suggest a spell charge system where higher levels allow you to charge more efficiently and effectively stronger than at low levels.

-Even further simplified character creation, expect for the VISUAL part:
Agreed, needs more depth. But again, DON'T just say "bring back a old one", make a NEW one that actually fits.

-Build-in walkthrough and GPS with no alternative:
There should definitely be improvements there but I wouldn't scream "remove it completely".

-Trying to solve quests by any other means they intend, is punished:
That was a HUGE problem, only sometimes it was possible to have an alternative (for example, once managed to disarm Umbra and take the sword before she could get it, ending the fight). Why could you never just TALK with some people?.

-Few discussion topics with NPCs. No asking for directions or specific info on anything.:
BIG room for improvement here, not just more topics but also being able to choose HOW to talk with them.

-One hour loitering for full health:
There should be a difference between resting and waiting though there CAN be some regeneration while waiting too as your character can treat his wounds in that time.

-Too many heal potions everywhere:
True but I'd also say change how healing potions work, they're NOT health from nothing. That combined with a complete overhaul of the health and injure system.

-Heal potions can be put behind a hotkey, and you can use as much as you want (almost like godmode):
Uhm, why exactly should you NOT be able to hotkey them? Saying "no, you can't" would be a artificial complication.

-Every character begins as a spellcaster:
In my opinion even mages should start out as barely being able to perform magic, though I'd suggest a COMPLETE overhaul of magic.

-You can't make a character with a weakness, disadvantage or a lower attribute :
That system could see a return after a overhaul.

-Skill perks that make whole game elements absolete (like noisy boots):
Didn't like skill perks at all as they felt artificial and forced in. They could still be present in a way but, again, greatly overhauled and not canceling out game elements like this.

-You REGAIN fatique by running:
Well you don't regain it BY running but WHILE running. You should still use up fatigue while running but not as much as you did in Morrowind.

-No sleeping in an 'owned' bed even if the owner is long dead and no one is around:
Again a "why is this so hard to get" point. You should be able to rest in other peoples beds and houses when you're either allowed to or nobody catches you, however NPCs where not dynamic enough as well (people noticing a person went missing and send someone to check the house).

-Spells are learned every 25 levels, and after that they never fail:
Once again, I'm against a strict failure system but the 25 levels steps where a horrible idea, it allowed no dynamics at all.

-Still no climbing, kicking, dodging, wound treatment or critical strikes:
Would add those save for "critical strike", that should be bound into the weapon skills themselves. After all why do you learn to do a "critical" hit with a dagger by training with a club, they work completely different.

-No levitation, passwall or about a dozen other spells:
A lot of spells should see a comeback but in different ways and overhauled.

-No area around caster spell effect:
Would be interesting to have but in different way maybe.

-No cast when used items:
Was boneheaded to remove those.

-No spears, flails, crossbows, thrown weapons or combat staves:
Design laziness, plain and simple.

-Still one person can collect all the daedric items and they never vanish:
I don't really see the problem there, getting them at all should not be the problem but HOW to get them should pose more of a challenge.

-Very little different clothing:
Again design laziness.

-Merchants have infinite amount of gold but they hand it out only 1000 pieces at a time:
Money should be more limited again AND there should be a big overhaul of the trade system.

-No more trading items:
Again, BIG overhaul of the trade system necessary.

-Every stolen piece of junk has a stolen item tag on them:
I'd suggest my "stolen items radius" idea, selling a potato you stole in a store across the street to another one, no problem. Trying to sell a fancy, valuable parade armor can be hard even a few towns apart.

-Moving someones fork can lead to a mortal duel:
Plays into NPC personalities again, they simply just had one base and that was FAR to little.

-Rich people have nothing worth stealing in their houses:
Plays into design laziness again.

-Main quest is basic good vs evil and chosen one saving the world:
Clich? fantasy stories are just easier to write, just saying "the evil from hell" doesn't need any work to actually establish the opposing side (one reason why I don't like WW2 games and movies, you don't even need to build up any kind of conflict anymore).

-Daedra are further demonized while they still were interesting in Battlespire for example:
This was quite evident as, as far as I can recall, they even once in an interview said "you fight against oblivion which is essentially HELL".

-Gore, and childish sixual jokes but no real maturity, like gray morals and decisions:
Seriousness is a big point but sadly kinda banned topic here on the forums.

-Some quests have obvious hoaxes versus the player, but you have to act stupid to get the quest done:
Same as the "no real alternatives" issue.

-Caves are tiny and repetitive, and there's never even need to retrace your steps back out thanks to 'handy' immediate exits:
Having caves that really go deep and really extensive ruins would be nice, however I'd like to see more than just subterranean structures, more overworld structure too.

-Diseases are always unlethal, vampirism too easy to get and cure:
Big problem is that diseases, poisons and the like are more a instant stat punishment instead of something that builds up, gets worse and has other effects than damaged stats.

-You can become the leader of all FACTIONS in a matter of days:
Actually becoming the leader of guilds should be limited, however NOT in the way of "you can only be the leader of ONE" but in a way IT MAKES SENSE.

-You can't lose ranks in FACTIONS:
The faction system itself was far to simple, actually it was just giving you quests for a storyline and nothing else. You couldn't do any missions or actual work in there at any point. Rising in rank should actually take dedication.
A bit aside the point now but the actual limit to how many factions you can be in should NOT be "you can only join so many" but how you can keep up with your work. Don't do enough for them, you get kicked out, plain and simple. Wanna stay on the payment plan, do your job.

-You can't fail most of the quests:
Failure should have a very far spread, there should NOT be "only win or only fail" but a LOT of possible outcomes. And a quest should NOT just fail because a certain person is dead (unless the mission was to keep that person alive obviously) but you could still find a solution YOURSELF.

-You can't turn down quests:
Or "No time yet, I'll come back to you later on that". Turning down should be MORE than just saying you won't do it and it's gone forever.

-Dumb barbarian can be Archmage without much knowledge of magic:
He shouldn't be able to become it easily but still have a chance to BECOME it.

-No seasons:
Design laziness, you never leave us...

-No children:
Not allowed to discuss that on the forums but I agree wholeheartedly.


There, long post but wanted to reply to all points.

All true and mostly important.

My biggest issue is the GPS. A quest giver says I need to talk with someone who's usually at a bar, but my GPS instantly shows where the person is. The info of quest giver became obsolete. We don't need to talk or think, the game could just as well only have the GPS. If we are after this sort of convenience all the missions could be listed in our diary the moment we start the game.

What makes GPS bad is that it can't be explained with any logic, except that the character is Neo-like superhero. Lack of transportation is possible, lack of factions is possible, skills and dialogue options are always abstract and never perfect, even level scaling can be somehow explained or ignored.

I'm playing Oblivion all over again for the first time in about 2 or so years and it's like a new fresh introduction again (this time I have QTP3 and a ton of other fancy mods) and I think people these days expect massive advances from previous games. Even new games now these days people can nit-pick certain details about how it's the same as some other game so therefor they jump on a bandwagon of spreading around nonsensical threads about "if this was this and that was that then why not have this from the previous" and so on.. I would have to agree with you that in my opinion I think we are just game-hungry and spoiled with technology so much taht we won't settle for just good, it's always going to be the type of attitude such as "we want it to be 3x better than the last if not then I'm not gonna buy" that the gaming society has come to.

This was a bit before my time but with the NES pretty much all games in each genre shared the same development techniques and styles and many of the games released all looked, felt and played the same but had a different story attached to it. If the same routine happened these days such as for this series I should say... Two Worlds basically copying the game people got all frazzled about it. I already know that the next installment will meet the needs for today's games and will look as good or better than current top-end games like Crysis and others.

I'd change the quest compass to a system i suggested where it just narrows it down, if you know "That person usually hangs out around that bar" you get a marker on the bar. When the person is there and you SEE him you get a marker on him (assuming you know what he looks like of course), if he's not there the marker remains on the bar as that's your only clue. Asking around might give you more locations where you can find that person.

BTW the "GPS" as you call it CAN be explained in a way as it's what the character imagines in his head. When looking at the map he simply imagines his target location to be highlighted.
But sure that doesn't explain how you exactly know where a person is but that can be changed by narrowing it down AND you exactly know where someone is when you SEE him or when it's a item that can't move on it's own. However in that case a marker could remain at the last KNOWN location since that's the last you remember it was at.

It could be like this:
Marker with a golden tip is a immoveable known location like a town, street, house, ruin...
Marker with a silver tip is a mobile location like a person or moveable item, this is only displayed when you see the person/object or otherwise know the position (mind connection for example)
Marker with a transparent tip is of a mobile location that you lost sight or contact of and that can move on it's own, this marker fades after a while. This is usefull when persuing a person and he went around a corner, you remember which corner it was and can attempt to continue following him.
Marker with a red tip is a "last know" location, for example when searching for a treassure and it's last know location was in a treasure room in a ruin. This can mean that it's not there anymore when you get there. Also, for example, when dropping your backpack and running away it leaves a red marker on the position of your backpack, when you get back there you can assume it's at or near that marker, however if you ran away from bandits it can very well be that somebody took it meaning you have to track it down.

The Elder Scrolls 5: That Shiny Path From Fable

Well there is that quest to find the owner of benerus manor, and then he goes to the Imperial City, and you get a general location for him, but then if u ask some 1 it just gives u his location anyway.

That is a result of the devs not really doing the works NOT fault of the compass.
It's easy to pass the blame on the compass itself, just with a lot of other systems, but the blame is still on the Dev team for actually not doing the work.
Simply imagine this, if theyleft out the quest compass in Oblivion completely you'd suddenly notice "wait, now there are NO hints how to find anything at all", well surprise, that#s because the DEVS didn't do anything and not because the compass was there.

Posts with console bashing and posts quoting such posts have been deleted.

From the rules:

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=724862

pretty soon the games will play themselves on god mode, so no one have to die anymore and can get all the phat loot and achievements.