The Elder Scrolls: Series Changes #2

Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:50 am

Skyrim is a game for people who like extreme hand holding, little quest information, marker to marker travelling, a lot of fighting, little/ less depth from previos games, less character customising, and good graphics. Obliviously the people who like this direction prefer the shallow action route TES is currently taking.
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Bad News Rogers
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:25 pm

Skyrim is a game for people who like extreme hand holding, little quest information, marker to marker travelling, a lot of fighting, little/ less depth from previos games, less character customising, and good graphics. Obliviously the people who like this direction prefer the shallow action route TES is currently taking.

You would rather play...Dark Souls?
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rae.x
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:43 pm

Something that has been bothering me a lot since reading the previous thread and watching the video.

Who are they dumbing the game down for? Casual Gamers?

If so, what are casual gamers? Why do they need a simplified game?

The dumbing down and hand holding elements present in Skyrim suggest that the true target audience is not Casual gamers, but more specifically children(something they shouldn't do as this is an Mature Rated Game). An advlt Gamer, casual or hardcoe, does not need these hand holding elements. They should be able to figure problems out on their own, a skill they need to have in order to progress in society. The compass arrows are prime example of shameful hand holding. I don't care what Todd or Pete or any of the devs say. That arrows are insulting. They wouldn't be bad if they only pointed to the dungeon, no they sit right on top of your objective, be it a chest, enemy, or item. They discourage exploration, a key element of TES. They are designed in mind for those with incredibly short attention spans(Children, not casual gamers), Worse still they are not even optional, quest givers rarely give directions(Dragonborn actually rectifies this somewhat).

I would like to go more in depth, but it would be a large post. I would need to write it out in a word processor first and proofread.
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Katie Louise Ingram
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:33 am

Why did we need another thread? Its just gonna be another Altadoon vs all again..
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how solid
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:59 am

Dress up opportunities are not part of RPGs, and from an RPG standpoint, yes, it does make sense.

Again, that has nothing to do with roleplay, that's something you do in a simulation game.
Would this be a bad time to bring up Daggerfall? It had a billion equipment slots, and you could wear clothing and armor together (for the most part). Not only that, but some clothing types could be worn in several different ways (a cloak, for instance, had no less than 6 ways to be worn, changeable at any time).

The simple FACT of the matter is, playing dress up, being able to start a family/raise kid, building homes, is NOT what an RPG is about, that is a SIMULATION game.
Haven't played Hearthfire, hm?

TES has always had elements of Sim-type gameplay. Granted its never at the forefront, and nowhere near the level of The Sims, but TES is about immersion and being part of a living world. Making friends, buying houses, marriage, child-raising... These are Sim elements. It's added flavor next to the RPG and Action elements.
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Lexy Corpsey
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:23 am

Is 'dumbing down' even a fair and appropriate term? To what age group does Bethesda target? The school age kids who sit up to a day or more in front of the screen or the working class [ie, the main purchasers of Bethesda products] who works up to forty or more hours a week and are usually too tired to care about immersive games.
Another way to look at this issue is a 'Let's Play' that I had recently watched on Youtube. Timpedia played all the popular quest related mods. His last mod was Iliana's Elsweyr Anequina Mod. Despite the fact that there is 17 quest [walkthrough] and possibly one subtly hinted secret quest, a beautifully designed Ayleid garden, underground garden, dungeon crawl, hidden player home. Timpedia, wondered around the main towns, talked to a few npcs, commented on the landscape, found nothing to do and quit the game. If Timpedia say, represented 90% of the paying users of Iliana's game/mod and like Timpedia generally stuck to the same beaten path throughout the game [ie finding nothing to do], why would Iliana spend time and money on developing a land/quest mod that very few gamers would see or do?
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abi
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:14 pm

Lets be frank gentlemen Bethesda, doesen't care about the niche crowd or RPG fans. Were at the point where there is nothing left to dumb down/streamline the game, without making it a hollow excuse of a TES game.
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Pixie
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:45 am

No, RPGs are not about playing dress-up, but they are also not solely about leveling and stats. They're about both. Remove one element and you don't have an RPG, you have an action-adventure game (Dark Souls) or an exploration sandbox (Minecraft).
Dark Souls is an action-adventure, yes, but it is also an RPG. Why do people think games cant be a mix of types? Ive been playing Dark Souls a lot the past few days (And being punished regularly for it @_@) and Ill tell you the RPG aspect of the game are brutal. And I'm not talking about the stats. Living with my actions has changed the game as I play in a huge way.

RPG fans = Dumbing down = Bad
Action/Adventure fans = Streamlining = Good
What about action adventure RPG fans?

Lets be frank gentlemen Bethesda, doesen't care about the niche crowd or RPG fans. Were at the point where there is nothing left to dumb down/streamline the game, without making it a hollow excuse of a TES game.
I don't want to be frank, I want to be me. (In other words, I don't agree with you.)
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:49 am

I'm assuming that you're hoping to grow up to be a lawyer, since you seem to prefer debating the nitpicking details and putting words in other people's mouths rather than discussing the issue in a constructive manner.
That isn't offensive...
Lawyers are obviously all evil...(if that was not your point, sorry).
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Jesus Duran
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:48 am

Skyrim was a huge step forward after Oblivion's gigantic, gigantic step backwards from Morrowind. I didn't pay much attention to the previous thread, since the video the thread was based on nauseates me horribly, but I think the focus here is getting missed, and simply comes down to how each side fundamentally views how the games should play and function. Personally, I wish the series was much more like Morrowind, in fact, I wish it were even more Morrowind than Morrowind, and that is why I use the Requiem mod. That said, I fail to see how the game is being "dumbed down". If "dumbing down" means the gameplay being fundamentally changed, nor for the better or worse, then, yes, the series is being "dumbed down". But I imagine that is not what it means, and so I have to say that change does not necessarily mean something has been "dumbed down". It may be something you dislike, or perhaps even hate, though. Using a buzzword to (inaccurately) describe your negative outlook on something does not make it so.



No, RPGs are not about playing dress-up, but they are also not solely about leveling and stats. They're about both. Remove one element and you don't have an RPG, you have an action-adventure game (Dark Souls) or an exploration sandbox (Minecraft).
Dark souls was still an RPG (I am not a Dark Souls really devoted fan btw).
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Sxc-Mary
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:44 pm

Firstly, allow me to say that I enjoyed the professionalism of the video, and I believe that many of the points were well developed, valid and strong arguments.
Spoiler



I, like many who traffic the gamesas forums consider myself a lore buff and an avid TES junkie. While my knowledge base is considerable, it is far from perfect and leagues away from the best. That said, I have played countless hours of TES games for the last 11 years and wholly believe that they are an integral aspect of my life, and unfortunately children/ casual gamers are not given the opportunity to discover themselves in a world of choices and situations that one might not regularly be exposed to in real life as I have. And I believe that these tough choices are what ended up making TES games so interesting. And I believe that tough choices are what truly have been eliminated from the franchise. I have played TES 3-5 and FO3 on both console (Xbox and Xbox360) and PC (although controller preferred, which was addressed in Samyoul's video). Samyoul's video directly compares TESIII: Morrowind to TESV: Skyrim since he believes that this decade has yielded the main acceleration in streamlining the series which cannot be argued as that is perceived individually, although I generally agree.

I believe that all 7 of Samyoul's (I hope you don't mind my abbreviating as Sam) points fall under hard choices.

1) You Can't Fail 1a) Important People Can't Die 1b) NPCs Can't Be Offended 1c) You Can't Fail Quests
Failure includes many development scenarios: time decisiveness, self preservation, resource allocation, leveling systems, replayability, multiroute environments, playstyle favoritism, and the "take nothing away from the player" approach discussed by Todd Howard.

These are all choices that were previously made in TES3 and prior games. Do you want the rare armor, or do you want to complete the questlines associated with the character? Do you want to make friends with some clans before others? Am I going to be a mage or a warrior, perhaps a thief? What skills matter to me? These are all tough choices that have been removed from the series. And for their own reasons.
Sure, it is a pain to reload a game after killing an essential NPC when it took you hours to get where you are. But what gets forgotten is the cannon of the game. Very little is discussed about the player's exploits in Morrowind in later games in the series. Almost no lore can be certain because the player had so many choices. It was shocking when Master Neloth was in DB DLC when I am sure there are at least 2 quests where you are required to kill him in Morrowind's story. Oblivion "dumbed" this area down, I believe for both ease of frustration and for the sustainability of storywriting. In Skyrim we see a plethora of nods at TESIV and history the character was involved in. Had the stories not been explicit, and choices predetermined we surely would be seeing more retcon than we see even now. In TESIII the only choice the player couldnt make was whether or not to stop Dagoth Ur, and that is the only story we really hear about. In oblivion and DG DLC and DB DLC we see nods at Jiub and Bloodmoon locations, but in general there are few stories told about the Nerevarine and those are simple statements. The COC, the guilds he was involved in and even the Mad God himself are all referenced in some way.
NPC's are offended, but only when you kill kin. However even killing the warmaiden wont stop her husband from making a quick buck off me. Choices should have consequences beyond general dialogue, but again this reverts to Todd's main statement from which the game was founded. NPCs cant be offended because there are so many strung along the story quests. Random Encounters and quests particularly make NPC interactions complicated, but also held the most potential for deep NPC interaction.

Failing quests is a big deal for cinematic storylines that Oblivion and Skyrim had. Especially the boss and final battles. These scenes were made to be epic, awe inspiring and made for the casual player prone to rage quits. You only feel awesome when you experience it for the first time. This falls into the division between core and hardcoe gamers. A core gamer/ achievement hunter/ game reviewer/ game renter/ buy and return gamer doesnt exist in the PC universe, it is illegal in many states. This is why I believe story missions are short, easy, and lack development. I also believe that is why they are visually inspiring, action oriented, and ego satisfying. The real joys lay in the exploration of the world. Hard opponents, grueling and exhausting dungeons, interesting items and areas, deep stories and character development, treasure maps, recognition of lore and referencing original games (Mara's Tear), the book series (sleeping tree), and occasionally the spinoffs (DB Neloth's staff quests). The paths to the objectives are short and beautiful in stories, long and challenging in adventure.


2) Faction Memberships Have No Consequences
Again, half true. To specify there are no relational consequences for joining any faction outside of the civil war. However, random encounters, player privileges and dialogue are affected by memberships. These are most prevalent in the TG, as you continue through the main and DB quests your relationships in the thieves guild grow apparent as it is constantly referenced. There are a few other conversation gems that can be discovered if you are a werewolf or vampire in the DB. However, to call these consequential and not just side effects or flavor elements is debatable. You never need to kill thieves, or slay mages, or hunt werewolves as quest missions, and you wouldn't be able to due to their essential nature. People never look at you sideways, or have altered dispositions, or deny you privileges based on your choices.

3) Choices Have Little Impact on The World
Again, mostly true. There are side effects, but in general few things happen. I believe that Oblivion was actually the high point of this situation. Closing gates and proceeding through the story completely changed the landscape and the manner in which the player interacted with it. Statues were resurrected and buildings destroyed. Factions crippled and others redefined by the player's choices.
In Skyrim there exists environmental damage as a result of the faction war, guards change, dialogue changes, and history is defined by clear sets of actions that the player has little choice in. In Morrowind I cannot think of too many choices outside of factions that alter much if anything. You can construct and massacre towns, build a shrine to Malacath and stop the blight storms. The fort is attacked, you can build a town, and you can control the life of a company in bloodmoon, and you can undermine the false gods in Tribunal. These are great on paper, but in terms of "paper feats" the Dragonborn stops the world eater, harnesses the power of the Thu'um, changes the history of an entire people, wields the power of the elder scrolls and defines the manifestation of power through vampirism or defeating the first dragonborn.

4) Quest and Journal Systems
I have absolutely no arguments. This was perfectly addressed. Again though, this removes a hard choice the player would have to make. Do it now, or risk the quest being lost in idle pages. Make the player remember people and places, or show them the way. In my opinion, they didnt need both a guide arrow and clairvoyance. I do like the compass however. That was one thing I wished they would improve from Morrowind and they did.

5) Reduced NPC Conversations
Keep in mind that Morrowind did have voice acting, barely, and Arena had actual acting. The difference is the passage of time. Now in Skyrim time continues despite conversation. People come and go as they would realistically. This is a trait that I enjoy about Skyrim. You get the feeling of wasting someone's time. That being said, I do miss the length of NPC dialogue available in Morrowind, but it comes down again to tough choices. Do I waste time buttering up this person, or do I try to figure it out on my own. How much do I really care about the rats eating your pillows? Just point me towards them and give me my money. There were some points where the dialogue in Morrowind seemed unrealistically drawn out and unnecessary for the situation. I think a happy medium is in order, definitely more than Skyrim. Somewhere along Serana's dialogue path for story characters seems almost necessary especially compared to Skjor. "Hmm, I kill silverhand because I am grieving him? The guy I only talked to in order to become a werewolf? Oh, yeah I guess."

6) Oversimplified Puzzles
YES. Every one a lever, column or door puzzle where all they really are is a waste of time. However, from a lore perspective the locks were made to keep things locked in, not locked out. Oblivion only had a handful of decent puzzles as mentioned by Sam, but Morrowind was how I was introduced to the UESP wiki. As a 10-12 yr old many of those puzzles were deep and hard, but I believe they have made me a challenging thinker as a result. Hard choices: Guess and check. Risk failure. Move on. All gone.

7) Reduced Item Values
Again, I believe the economy is broken just like every political anolyst on TV. Also like them, I am not sure about a solution.
The symbolic representation of hard work being placed in the value of material items discovered on the player's adventure is a cornerstone of the TES series. In previous games rare and powerful things were hard to acquire, not necessarily hard to come by. In Oblivion and Skyrim the difficulty of obtaining items still plays a role in its value, but there exists the problem. Deadric quests find you in Skyrim. Rumors, mourning family members in an iconic location, couriers, wanderers, the plagued, fighters, magic orbs and talking dogs seek you out and call you to their master's bidding. The only examples that don't were thrown into the story quests. There is absolutely no difficulty or value in finding these artifacts with the exception of Volendrung which is the most interactive (good hammer, good story, rough fight and world disposition consequences). Befitting their difficulty in acquiring them, these artifacts have limited capability and limited retail value. In Oblivion, a little hunting had to be done, but there was a topic for nearly all deadric quests. Morrowind deadric quests were difficult, hard to come by and worth the effort. Again, hard choices: Do I want the achievement? Is it worth my time? If I dont like it can I get rid of it? Where am I supposed to put this thing? Will I ever use it?

Thanks for reading!
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Alyna
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:56 pm

Lets be frank gentlemen Bethesda, doesn't care about the niche crowd or RPG fans. Were at the point where there is nothing left to dumb down/streamline the game, without making it a hollow excuse of a TES game.
Which probably means the next game will have more depth. Though not a lot. So that it doesn't steepen the learning curve.

They've reached the point of accessibility that they're happy with, now they're figuring out how to put some of the meat back on the bones in a way that works well for the average player.
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Michelle davies
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:09 am

Why do people think games cant be a mix of types?
That's a good question. I don't know either. After all it's not like there was some mythical point in the series' past when the games were ever pure, traditional roleplaying games. They were not. All of the Elder Scrolls games, from Arena to Skyrim, have taken the form of hybrid action/roleplaying games. So it seems to me that anyone who is familiar with the series ought to be accustomed to the idea of a mix of types. A mix of types is what this series is all about.
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Joey Bel
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:12 pm

Would this be a bad time to bring up Daggerfall? It had a billion equipment slots, and you could wear clothing and armor together (for the most part). Not only that, but some clothing types could be worn in several different ways (a cloak, for instance, had no less than 6 ways to be worn, changeable at any time).
Most of which were largely useless, highly redundant, and provided little to no real benefit to the game's RPG mechanics.

Haven't played Hearthfire, hm?

TES has always had elements of Sim-type gameplay. Granted its never at the forefront, and nowhere near the level of The Sims, but TES is about immersion and being part of a living world. Making friends, buying houses, marriage, child-raising... These are Sim elements. It's added flavor next to the RPG and Action elements.
I have actually.

Which is something I never denied, in fact, I even specifically mentioned that the TES games DO contain a lot of sim elements, the point was, and still is, sim elements =/= RPG elements, and getting rid of sim elements =/= getting rid of RPG elements.

That's a good question. I don't know either. After all it's not like there was some mythical point in the series' past when the games were ever pure, traditional roleplaying games. They were not. All of the Elder Scrolls games, from Arena to Skyrim, have taken the form of hybrid action/roleplaying games. So it seems to me that anyone who is familiar with the series ought to be accustomed to the idea of a mix of types. A mix of types is what this series is all about.
Because in the modern gaming world many old school players hate the sheer notion that any form of any other genera touching their perfect RPG, the definition of which differs for every single individual, in any way.

It's like how old people hate the new generation's music, and claims it svcks and is repetitive, when their generation's music was just as repetitive as the new generations, and the generation before the previous one told them their music svcks and is repetitive, and so on and so on back in time forever. In short, it's the sheer fact that it's different automatically means it's inferior in every way to what came before.

It's an endless cycle that is constant in all forms of media from books, to TV shows, to movies, to music, to games. Games just happen to be reaching the first REALLY big change, since technology has just only recently reached a point when massive hybridization between game genres is possible on a large scale.

They changed it, now it svcks - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItsvcks is good reading on the subject.
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Lyd
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:29 pm

IS IT TO HARD TO ASK FOR A HAPPY MEDIUM?
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Sammygirl
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:33 am


Because in the modern gaming world many old school players hate the sheer notion that any form of any other genera touching their perfect RPG, the definition of which differs for every single individual, in any way.

It's like how old people hate the new generation's music, and claims it svcks and is repetitive, when their generation's music was just as repetitive as the new generations, and the generation before the previous one told them their music svcks and is repetitive, and so on and so on back in time forever. In short, it's the sheer fact that it's different automatically means it's inferior in every way to what came before.

It's an endless cycle that is constant in all forms of media from books, to TV shows, to movies, to music, to games. Games just happen to be reaching the first REALLY big change, since technology has just only recently reached a point when massive hybridization between game genres is possible on a large scale.

They changed it, now it svcks - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItsvcks is good reading on the subject.

Basically this. As an example: I played Baldur's Gates 1 and 2 (BG2:SoA being my favorite game of all time). Do I look down on the new games because of it? Of course not. Why would I? But this is not the case in the general population. I know this, because I was one of those people. When Fallout 3 was announced as an action RPG and not turn-based I was enraged on bethesda. I thought to myself "Those bastards have the balls to do this!". I didn't even try the game that I talk down so much and hated every aspect of a thing that I have never saw. 4 years later, when I was a little bit wiser and more open minded about reality in general I picked it up to kill time. And I loved it.
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..xX Vin Xx..
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:11 am

Basically this. As an example: I played Baldur's Gates 1 and 2 (BG2:SoA being my favorite game of all time). Do I look down on the new games because of it? Of course not. Why would I? But this is not the case in the general population. I know this, because I was one of those people. When Fallout 3 was announced as an action RPG and not turn-based I was enraged on bethesda. I thought to myself "Those bastards have the balls to do this!". I didn't even try the game that I talk down so much and hated every aspect of a thing that I have never saw. 4 years later, when I was a little bit wiser and more open minded about reality in general I picked it up to kill time. And I loved it.

Congrats to you. Glad you enjoyed it. Please be aware that personal preference is personal (hence why "personal" appears in the name). While you may enjoy Action and RPG games and find the various degrees of hybrids to be enjoyable, other people may hate the RPG aspect or the Action aspect and will not like hyrbids that lean too far away from their preferred side of the spectrum. Your use of the phrases "wiser" and "open minded" is incredibly close minded because you are implying that only people like you are "wise" and "open minded" enough to appreciate these games and thus anyone who does not appreciate them is ignorant and close minded. The reality is that they simply prefer different genres and either like or dislike development direction depending on where the direction is going.

This is not a case of being right or wrong, it is a case of chocolate and vanilla.
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Aman Bhattal
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:40 am

Basically this. As an example: I played Baldur's Gates 1 and 2 (BG2:SoA being my favorite game of all time). Do I look down on the new games because of it? Of course not. Why would I? But this is not the case in the general population. I know this, because I was one of those people. When Fallout 3 was announced as an action RPG and not turn-based I was enraged on bethesda. I thought to myself "Those bastards have the balls to do this!". I didn't even try the game that I talk down so much and hated every aspect of a thing that I have never saw. 4 years later, when I was a little bit wiser and more open minded about reality in general I picked it up to kill time. And I loved it.

Nah its a strawman argument designed to marginalise and dismiss the other persons point of view without actually having to adress any issue.
But what can you expect, from someone who vehemently asserts that the ability to customise your character in different clothes or gear is 'redundant' and 'not RPG'?

The point, as has been quite eloquently detailed by other posters, is not that things are less enjoyable now because they changed.
The point, in actuality, is that it is an undeniable fact that a lot of meat has been stripped of the bones in this series. There is quite a lot that it once did and that it no longer does, and generally these removed elements are pure RPG elements, such as the ability to wear lots of different clothes and apparel, or the ability to customise your character via character creation, or the ability to finetune the interaction your character has with the world via attributes.

Change is not neccesarily worse. A different game can be a very good game nonetheless.
However, as has been pointed out before, when people see those elements they enjoyed the most removed from the game entirely and not replaced by anything but better graphics and physics, then people tend to become unhappy and this seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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GPMG
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:18 am

What about action adventure RPG fans?


I don't want to be frank, I want to be me. (In other words, I don't agree with you.)
The scales aren't even close to being even Skyrim is more of an action game, than a RPG. Granted since Morrowind TES has been an action adventure RPG, but it had a good balance of action adventure and RPG.

Which probably means the next game will have more depth. Though not a lot. So that it doesn't steepen the learning curve.

They've reached the point of accessibility that they're happy with, now they're figuring out how to put some of the meat back on the bones in a way that works well for the average player.
I truely want to believe that, but to them "fixing" is gutting so I wont be surprised if the next game has even less depth.
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Tai Scott
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:45 am

There is quite a lot that it once did and that it no longer does, and generally these removed elements are pure RPG elements, such as
-the ability to wear lots of different clothes and apparel
-or the ability to customise your character via character creation
-or the ability to finetune the interaction your character has with the world via attributes.
-Which was been replaced by making the remaining clothing pieces deeper, and more useful, via the introduction of perks, and the dual enchanting system.

-I can customize by character surprisingly well during char gen, not sure what your problem is

-Attributes have been replaced by perks, which offer far more dynamic progression of a character's skill and abilities, and allow for far more precise/specialized character enchantments. instead of blanketing "you got +STR, now all melee weapons do more damage", we have varying power attacks, weapons special powers, like axe bleeds, and the ability to focus on things like dual wielding, with branching perk trees, instead of the entirely linear skill/attribute progression of past games, and all of that has been layered on top of the generic "do more melee weapon damage" upgrades.


As has been pointed out before, the so called "removal" of things is a falsehood, its just been changed into another form, and people dont like the change.

Morrowind can be best described as a mile wide, but an inch deep, where as Skyrim is a mile wide, and like half a foot deep.


And before you start sending me PMs asking me never to respond to you, know that I have no plans to beyond this post, I know how much you despise it.
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Kellymarie Heppell
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:30 am

-Which was been replaced by making the remaining clothing pieces deeper, and more useful, via the introduction of perks, and the dual enchanting system.

-I can customize by character surprisingly well during char gen, not sure what your problem is

-Attributes have been replaced by perks, which offer far more dynamic progression of a character's skill and abilities, and allow for far more precise/specialized character enchantments. instead of blanketing "you got +STR, now all melee weapons do more damage", we have varying power attacks, weapons special powers, like axe bleeds, and the ability to focus on things like dual wielding, with branching perk trees, instead of the entirely linear skill/attribute progression of past games, and all of that has been layered on top of the generic "do more melee weapon damage" upgrades.


as has been pointed out before, the so called "removal" of things is a falsehood, its just been changed into another form, and people dont like the change.

No, not really, this is another example of misrepresentation because it is patently false.

For character creation for example, no you can not. Its simply not how the games work. In previous games you could select quite a lot of different things that developed your character before you even started the game and all of these things the game no longer does. The difference between races in Skyrim is about equivalent to the difference in genders in Daggerfall or Morrowind, namely 5-10 point difference in skills.
Daggerfall was magnificent in character creation where the range of possible bonuses and maluses you could apply to your character as well as the different little background snippets really gave you the chance to make a character that got a completely different game experience than your previous ones.

Attributes have been removed and nothing has come in its place. Perks are a different kettle of fish altogether and only pertain to individual skills.
Oblivion had perks.
Attributes used to govern several skills directly. One thing that the game no longer does without attributes is NPC disposition. Skyrim doesnt really have any.
Used to be disposition affected anything from which guilds you could join to if they even gave you information for your quest. Skyrim has a three tier system where this happens: "I dont like you. Oh, you gave me a potato. Why dont you go take stuff from my house best friend."
As attributes worked on a scale of 1-100 instead of 1-3 it allowed for greater detail in NPC - player interaction.
Another thing that the loss of attributes affects, this is a minor one but its exemplary of the whole problem, is that traps and diseases and curses dont do much anymore.
There is quite a large difference between losing five points in your lockpicking skill because you are diseased to losing twenty points of your strength stat.
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sally R
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:56 pm

misrepresentation
Yes, I see a lot of that going around.


-I really don't need the game to tell me what my character is before I start the game in order to have a character, frankly, I found all of those things like setting classes to be wholly unneeded, as I just always created a custom class anyways, and birthsigns were so pointless I forgot I had one 99% of the game.

All the removal of that "character creation" nonsense past games effected was making character definement and progression far more open and dynamic, allowing for greater roleplay opportunities, and more dynamic shifting of roles if needed.


-Skyrim does have NPC disposition, which is based on a combination of actions you have commuted against each individual NPC, and your speech level/perks, which is why the higher level your speech skill/perks are, the better prices you get, and the easier it's for you to pass persuasion checks. Exactly like how having a high disposition with NPCs in Morrowind decreased shop prices, and made it easier to persuade them in the few quests had had persuasion options.

Furthermore, disposition in Skyrim works on a 9 tired system - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Disposition
-4 Archnemesis, -3 Enemy, -2 Foe, -1 Rival, 0 Acquaintance, 1 Friend, 2 Confidant, 3 Ally, 4 Lover


-While attributes worked on 1-100 system, the simple FACT of the matter is that most increases in an attribute meant nothing, the increase from 80 to 81 INT was 2 magicka, and the increase from 99 to 100 willpower was 1 stamina. The attribute system, while offering a scale of 1-100, thus allowing for a larger difference in displayed numbers on the character sheet, also prevented the numbers themselves from having a large impact on the game, because they were so spread out.

Indeed, a disease that removed 20 STR is, in terms of effective game change, no different then a disease that lowered your STR by 10, since the increase in melee damage from 50-70, and 50-60, STR is actually so small it's hardly noticeable unless you take a DEEP examination of the damage done. Similarly, a disease that removed 20 INT would only remove 40 magicka, which was about the cost of 1 mid-high spell, whoopdedo, you lost 1/5 of your total magicka pool, and all it had changed was ONE spell cast.

All the attribute system allowed for is greater difference in displayed numbers on the screen, however, when it came to effective gameplay difference, the loss of even a staggering 1/5th of the max an attribute could reach, offered little to nothing in terms of actual gameplay changes, it was effectively a lie of numbers, deigned to entertain those who took little time in investigating how the attributes actually calculated things like melee damage, or total magicka, by making them think they took such a big hit from a disease because they lost 20 numbers, when in reality, they lost maybe one spell cast.

And while I absolutely despite Fallout's SPEICAL, it does everything that ES really didn't, at least to a greater degree, in that gaining/losing SPEICAL points meant FAR more since because it was on a 1-10 scale, and thus, increases/decreases meant 10 times more then a game on a 1-100 scale.


-Even without the attribute system, traps and diseases could work to a FAR greater, if not at least equal, effect. Instead of a trap/disease removing 30 STR, a trap/disease could remove 30 one handed skill, thus disabling the level 80 +20% damage perk, resulting in a slightly over 20% loss of total loss of total one-handed damage, along with removing the level 90 req weapon specialization perk, and the master level backwards power attack perk. Which would result in a FAR greater loss of power then losing 20STr could eer hope to match.

The supposed correlation between traps/diseases getting weaker, and the removal of attributes, is wholly nonexistent.
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Quick Draw
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:28 am

I welcome the return of Attributes. In Fallout they work great for me(I don't exploit anything so, don't bother, altadoon).
But I want them remastered, updated, renewed, or whatever you call it. First of all they should not be changeable as they were before. You pick them at the start and live with it. Maybe sometimes you could up a couple of them and that's it. They should have a broad impact on skills. Strength will govern one of the damage modifiers, while Agility will help you swing daggers faster and more efficiently. Strong warrior would use power techniques, while agile warrior will use his quickness, will be able to dodge better(controllable by player of course, since it's an action-RPG). Attributes would have simultaneous affection on your skills and actions, and hopefully, dialogues. If a character is strong and smart, he will have better strategies(combat moves), while not so smart will focus on pure force. Maybe some trait will allow dumb warrior to use those combat moves, in exchange for something. Well, my example may be not very good, but I'm sure there are limitless possibilities with attribute-skill-perk system, far more than we have in Skyrim, but some people for some reason are against better customization.
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Devils Cheek
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:04 am

Having a TES verison of SPECIAL would be nice.
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:30 am

(text)

Except that attributes governed multiple skills and you know it. Except that losing 20 strength or intelligence had far more effects than those you described and you know it. Have fun moving around when youre suddenly overencumbered.
Except that for 90% of citizens in Skyrim you only will ever get three tiers, 0-3 and you know it.
Im not going to reply anymore to you, you aggrevate me too much. Your attitude belongs in a courtroom or a parliament, on a forum I wont discuss things with people that willfully and continuously misrepresent, omit and warp things.
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JD bernal
 
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