Imperialism is nothing new. And it isn't always evil. The Empire has not only all but eliminated slavery, but they have introduced free trade, freedom of religion, and peace to Tamriel.

im not saying debating is bad im saying that ideas are always going to be different but debating is a way to find common ground and find out new facts that show that you have been slightly mislead or didnt understand something bad

Oh yes, they can be brutal. But imperialism always is. It's a cost/benefit thing. They unified warring provinces. Who knows how many would have died without the Empire in needless wars? Just look what happened in the Simalcrium (sp?).

One question I ask about Imperial oppression is if oppression of another people's right to oppress oppression?

Find me a Morrowind Dunmer NPC that's oppressed by the Empire.

It's a bit like the European Union and the United Kingdom. Many Britons don't like the EU because it's foreign and impersonal and it somewhat limits what their government can do, so there's the whole issues of national sovereignty and patriotism going on. But objectively speaking, it's not oppressive. Forcing reforms in the way a country is governed is not oppressive for the common people unless the reforms themselves are oppressive. "Waaah!!! Waaaah!!! I'm being repressed: He's forcing me to be free!" does not count.

Simply put, the Dunmer don't like the Empire because they're proud and more than a little xenophobic. The Empire is not Dunmer, so they resent it for reasons that have nothing to do with personal rights and freedoms and everything to do with nationalism (in all of its meanings, the good and the bad).

On the human rights front, you could say it infringes on the right of people to self-determination, because the Dunmer did not exactly get a referendum on the subject. But still, the annexation of Morrowind was peaceful, organized by Vivec before any conflict started between the Septim Empire and Morrowind. So, they have less reasons to complain than, say, the Redguards, the Altmer, the Bretons, the Bosmer, the Khajiit...

Let's not forget that the amulet of kings kept the empire safe for millenia and that item is intertwined with the empire and even though they may have done some bad things every once in a while, it was unarguably better then all of Tamriel being svcked into Oblivion.

I might be seriously wrong when saying this, and I have no time to find any evidence right now, but isn't there's still wars going on all over the place? The only example I can remember right now is Nords attacking Redoran territory right before the Oblivion Crisis.

The Empire isn't in very good shape at the moment.

Rationalization city.


Anyways, I theorize that after a few thousand years of living with their own antagonists (Colovia vs. Nivenay) who are nonetheless their brethren with the same myth of national creation, and competing at the same time as benefiting from each other, that this taught the Cyrodiils the advantages of cosmopolitanism. No one wants the Alessian theocracy again, so they welcome every crazy with a carboard sign and give him a temple.

That is true, I did not think so far. And though Legion influence seems to me to be bigger outside Cyrodiil (which would be where they need to keep garrison to keep the order), I doubt they would have many legions stationed in Skyrim. They are quite tied together, after all.

But still, isn't the the proof of how good a system is how cope with bad times? Heh, but it would take one hell of a system to not have bad times. Kinda useless debate.

... :mellow:

What.

Just stop reading at "right to..." This is Tamriel.

I thought one of the interesting things about TES III: Morrowind was that it explored the contradictions of liberal colonialism. That is, overall, I get the impression that the Empire is a progressive force in the world, but it is an occupying power in Morrowind, generally resented by most Dunmer, and Imperial influence in Morrowind relies in the end on coercion.

Another thing not really discussed in this thread, to my surprise, is the nature of the idea, "The Empire is Law, and the Law is Holy."

It brings to my mind a lot of medieval and renaissance writings about the longing for the lost Roman Empire, understood to be the ideal state and the temporal authority that was counterpart to the spiritual authority of the Church. In Dante's Divine Comedy, for example, Brutus and Cassius, who conspired to assassinate Julius Caesar, are described as having committed a sin as grievious as Judas Iscariot. The Church and State, combined, were imagined to be the basis of all authority and legitimacy. The Great Chain of Being, and all that.

In Tamriel, where everyone suffers the psychic stress of the absence of the Missing God, Lorkhan, I think the Empire, in part, substitutes for Lorkhan, by providing a central organizing principle. And, it's a temporal power. It acts historically, that is, through time (Akatosh) and space (Lorkhan), and Akatosh's covenant with Alessia was its foundation.

That, and look where the Elder Council is sitting.

Yeah, not terribly subtle, that bit.

I haven't got around to going downstairs. Is the World Navel down there?

The White Gold Tower? Does this concern the towers in general? If it does, I'd love for someone to expound on it.

For sure. But do you know what the best hint ever is? Go load up Oblivion and ask an IC guard for directions. What does he describe the city as?

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/nalionarticle2.shtml

Like I said earlier, the Empire isnt that bad, as far as empires go. The Emperor and Martin both proved to be incredibly noble and died defending not only their own throne but all of Tamriel.

However, were I given a choice, I would much prefer that the government more often be painted as morally gray, offering necessary structure but also exhibiting obvious corruption from time to time. That was the case in Morrowind, but less so in Oblivion. In most real world situations, the image of the noble king riding a white horse with the blessing of God has generally been a cover for more materialistic ambitions. Also, the historic arguments for Imperialism (bringing them culture and democracy) has generally been a cover for the desire to exploit the resources of poorer countries.

The main storyline certainly put a noble face onto the empire, and you cant help but respect the Emperor and Martin, exalting them to the status of messiahs, but I think it would make for a more interesting political environment to offer a bit more dichotomy, showing decently strong arguments both for and against and letting the player decide. Rarely is it ever so black and white.

There have been rotten apples on the throne, but that's the disadvantage of a monarchy.

I've often wondered if Uriel Septim's declaration that all raw ebony, raw glass, and dwemer artifacts belong to him was done to prepare for the coming crisis and provide lots of high-level armor sets to Cyrodiil. Or at least explain why there was so much ebony, glass, and dwemer equipment in Cyrodiil.

High level armor sets? That's like claws on a chalk board. It's precious metals, 'nuff said.

I'd say its like Pharohs saying that all gold in the kingdom belongs to them, and nobody else, by divine decree. It's just a power trip thing, to say "its all mine!"

Sickening. A gross display by leadership, and an abuse of power.

I doubt Uriel Septim can be that materialistic.

Then you clearly have no idea what lurks in the hearts of all men. Even Picard.

Uriel Septim was no ordinary man.

But he WAS mortal. And all mortal men have there failings.