The Empire or The Stormcloaks : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:38 am

Hammerfell survived, Skyrim will survive.

Hammerfell only survived due to the Thamlor having most of their armies over in Cyrodiil. What was left in Hammefell was just a small fraction of their troops.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:10 pm

Why does everyone keep saying this? while the empire got its ass handed to them for awhile the treaty was after the empire CRUSHED the Thalmor army in a big battle

The empire these days gives the Thalmor whatever it wants. That doesnt sound like winners. They 'protect' skyrim from Thalmor by appeasemant.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:18 pm

Empire, for this reason among a few others, inculding the fact that the Empire is the only true way to defeat the Thalmor...

Prior to my second character I knew nothing of the Thalmor and the war. After learning about it and then further investigating I realized how short sighted Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are. The banning of Talos is nothing but a small burying of the hatchet until The Empire can strike back. Those that fail to see that, or call The Empire weak for it possess no foresight or ability to plan. It's evident that The Empire doesn't plan to stay under the treaty forever and when the war starts again Talos worship will be back.

Furthermore Ulfric is using the Talos ban as a tool to get more power. It's practically in your face the entire time. He has no real interest in being a good leader, he's a tyrant interested only in power. I highly suggest people read the book "The Bear of Markarth" His treatment of the Foresworn is nothing short of genocide, AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE. His "with us or against us" mentality made him and his men kill women and children who did not side with him when he attacked the Foresworn.

As mentioned in that book the people were very happy under Foresworn rule and it was largely a peaceful kingdom that actually applied for official Imperial recognition, until Ulfric and his marry band of bandits got there. That is exactly the same strategy he plans to use for Whiterun as well.

There is also the case of him killing the High King. If you talk to the aids in Solitude they'll tell you what happened. Everyone knew Ulfric was there, they all knew he came to ask for Skyrims independence (and by their own admission the old king likely would have supported the idea) however instead of going through normal diplomatic channels to get what he wanted (and likely he would have) he challenged the High King and shouted him to pieces.

That right there is a clear indication of what Ulfric wants. Power. Skyrim would likely have declared its independence from the Empire if Ulfric asked, but it wasn't enough to just be a Jarl, he wants to be the High King. Plain and simple. He's a greedy racist tyrant who is so focused on his own power he doesn't have the foresight to see the real enemy at the gates, the Thalmor. Even if he succeeds he will fall to the Thalmor and then he'll get a taste of his own racist bigotry.

Sure The Empire may have it's problems and corruption but that's nothing close to the problems the people of Skyrim will have under Ulfric.

Long live The Empire!!!

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:07 am

The empire these days gives the Thalmor whatever it wants. That doesnt sound like winners. They 'protect' skyrim from Thalmor by appeasemant.

Well look at it this way. You can A)fight with the thalmor while fighting a civil war or B) appease your enemies while you rebuild a bit and then fight them.

While the thalmor are terrible(damn nazis) you can't just jump on everyone. People jumped into the War with Nazi germany and if hitler wasn't so crazy and listened to his generals better he very well could've won that war. it takes alot of planning and i think the empire has something up there sleeve just because the First dominion also fell and hell either side that wins the civil war has the Dovakiin and all his/hers dragonborn heirs on their side

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:52 am

edit: whats this double post?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:13 pm

"he challenged the High King and shouted him to pieces."

Yes he challenged and the challenge WAS accepted. By the Nord way that makes Ulfric the king.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:16 pm

Well look at it this way. You can A)fight with the thalmor while fighting a civil war or B) appease your enemies while you rebuild a bit and then fight them.

While the thalmor are terrible(damn nazis) you can't just jump on everyone. People jumped into the War with Nazi germany and if hitler wasn't so crazy and listened to his generals better he very well could've won that war. it takes alot of planning and i think the empire has something up there sleeve just because the First dominion also fell and hell either side that wins the civil war has the Dovakiin and all his/hers dragonborn heirs on their side

The longer you let Thalmor be in control it doesnt make it any easier to beat them it only makes them stronger. If russia had surrendered to Germany then Hitler would never have lost.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:26 am

The longer you let Thalmor be in control it doesnt make it any easier to beat them it only makes them stronger. If russia had surrendered to Germany then Hitler would never have lost.

Don't get too off topic now.

ALSO, the Empire didnt surrender, they jsut signed a peace treaty negative for them, both sides were seriously weakened after the great war, the Empire was just a bit weaker, btw I actually like Ulfric, he is a true Nord, cares for other Nords, I am not sure why everyone says he sacrifices men for his own cause, if you look at it that way, you can also say that Titus Mede got Leggionaires killed for his own cause and that he is not any better then Ulfric, I also watched the ending of the Imperial side civil war quest on youtube and I didn't like it compared to the stormcloak ending(which i played in another walkthrough). We're not strong enough from the Thalmor now? It isn't the first time a Nord(in my playthrough) Dragonborn used a Nordic army to conquer Tamriel, and if we can do that, we can at least easily defend Skyrim from the Elves.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:07 pm

The longer you let Thalmor be in control it doesnt make it any easier to beat them it only makes them stronger. If russia had surrendered to Germany then Hitler would never have lost.

The Thalmor also took pretty big losses in the Great War. The Empire at the start of the Great War was unprepared for war, but for the last thrity years the Empire has been doing nothing but rebuilding up their armies up for the next war with the the Thalmor.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:48 pm

Why does everyone keep saying this? while the empire got its ass handed to them for awhile the treaty was after the empire CRUSHED the Thalmor army in a big battle

It's because a lot of people have little idea of how strategy or war works.

To quote myself again...

Another thing that I see you Stormcloaks say is that the Empire "gave up" or "surrendered." They didn't, they sued for peace.

Had the Empire surrendered or given up it would have been at the point of the Thalmor sword, it was not. The Emperor and the Legion took back the Imperial City and sued for peace with the Dominion. Yes it was the same contractual terms as the original surrender was for however if the Thalmor had the Empire at the point of its sword the terms would not have been so, the peace treaty would have been even worse.

Since the Empire was on the offensive however they were able to secure that deal. They're wise enough to know however that unless they sued for those exact terms it's unlikely the Dominion would have accepted and the war would've raged.

The Empire sued for peace they did not give up. They hit the pause button that happens to have a few rules. Once they recover though its game time again.

For those that think Skryrim is some how magical and can face the entire Thalmor army by themselves, again face the facts...

That demonstrates my example of a Stormcloak lacking any planning or foresight ability. Fighting to the very bitter end is not how you preserve am Empire. That's how you'd destroy it.

The Empire, as has been stated many times, is binding its time until it can again attack again. The treaty is not going to last forever. The Empire, when it recovers will strike back against the Thalmor, or if the Thalmor recover first because of the meldsome Ulfric they will attack and take over both the Empire and Skyrim.

Skyrim won't survive on it's own. Sure the Redguards have held their ground however they have not driven them out, nor have they won. They are also battling the already bloodied Thalmor armies after the Legion gave them black eyes. Were Hammerfell to stand against the full might of the Thalmor they would not survive, the entire Empire barely did. Skyrim is no different.

Redguard is surviving by the skin of its teeth. They have not defeated the already weakened Thalmor nor have they push them out of their lands. The Redguards are very much akin to the war in the middle east currently. They're resistance fighters, that's it. Skyrim would be no different. Skyrim cannot stand alone, nor can Hammerfell.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:58 am

The fact that Maven Black Briar, a person who heavily syphatizes the thalmor and is a real biatch, gets to be jarl of riften when Empire wins, pishes me off. She is a pretty big reason for me to join the Stormcloaks and to not give Riften in exchange for Markath at the peace conference

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:19 pm

I thought Stormcloaks intill I started to read the journal entries that the thalmor wrote..

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:04 pm

The Redguards are very much akin to the war in the middle easy currently. They're resistance fighters, that's it. Skyrim would be no different. Skyrim cannot stand alone, nor can Hammerfell.

They did push them out.

I thought Stormcloaks intill I started to read the journal entries that the thalmor wrote..

All that dossier really says is that the Thalmor want the Empire/Skyrim weakened by a long, drawn out conflict. EITHER side winning is bad for them.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:22 pm

Yes he challenged and the challenge WAS accepted. By the Nord way that makes Ulfric the king.

Just because its tradition doesn't make it good. Especially when it's opens the door for tyrants like Ulfric to simply take power by force of arms.

Further read the rest of my post, Ulfric wanted only power. He could have had his revolution if he but asked for it. However he would have stayed a Jarl. That wasn't enough for him. He has to be High King.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:52 pm

I haven't decided yet either but I'm definitely against the Thalmor...

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:58 pm

Yeah, just because you can win a duel doesn't make you a better ruler. What do taxation, boundary disputes, trade or arbitration have to do with martial strength? Not a whole lot, judging from Windhelm. Ulfric gives every indication of being a skilled warrior and strategist, but a svcky administrator.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:15 pm

They did push them out.

Only because of the Empire was able to wipe out most of the Thalmor forces that were in Cyrodiil, where the bulk of their army was, in the The Battle of The Red Ring.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:52 pm

At first I chose to side with the rebels, following the common misconception that rebel causes are just and righteous. Buuut I severely regret that-Partly because I realized partway through my Nord playthrough that Ulfric is a racist [censored]...but also because I realized that in oblivion I fought for the empire's survival. Got a bit sentimental with that thought, which I don't get very often. It kinda makes me forgive them for trying to lop my head off for no good reason. :dry:

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:41 pm

Only because of the Empire was able to wipe out most of the Thalmor forces that were in Cyrodiil, where the bulk of their army was, in the The Battle of The Red Ring.

True, but their victory proves that the Empire did not have to sign the Concordat.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:21 pm

True, but their victory proves that the Empire did not have to sign the Concordat.

The Empire didn't have inhospitable terrain like the Alik'r Desert to take advantage of. Even so, the five years of continued warfare laid waste to southern Hammerfell. Continuing the war after the Red Ring might have saved face, but the cost in lives - both military and civilian casualties - would have been phenomenal. Do you really believe the Empire has more obligation to save face than to protect its citizens?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:16 am

True, but their victory proves that the Empire did not have to sign the Concordat.

The Empire had to sign that treaty, all the Legions that were fighting lost over half of their troops and the 8th Legion was completely destroyed. The Empire at that point was to weak from the war to actually contiune fighting. Hammerfell was only able to contiune fighting due to it not being the main objective of the Thalmor during the Great War.

Edit: It looks like that my last sentence was wrong. During the beginning of the war it appears that Hammerfell was the main objective, but due to how easy it was to defeat the Empire during the early stages of the war they sent most of their forces into Cyrodill to mop up the Empire.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:24 pm

If the Dominion was strong enough to continue the war after Red Ring they would not have signed the treaty. The Empire did need peace, but did not need to concede as much as they did to get it.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:11 pm

Guys please recommend which in-game books have details about the war and the surrendar and all of this stuff. Obviously the dosier's in the thalmor embassy but if you haven't gotten that far yet GO PLAY GAME!

I'll buy an endless supply of Skyrim DLC if it lets me fight the dominion.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:27 am

If the Dominion was strong enough to continue the war after Red Ring they would not have signed the treaty. The Empire did need peace, but did not need to concede as much as they did to get it.

Except the terms offered were agreeable. If they felt that the possibility of leveraging more concessions outweighed the cost of continuing the war, they would have continued. Otherwise, why did it take another five years for the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai, ending the war in Hammerfell? Because it took that long for the cost of war to outweigh the potential gains, so far as the Thalmor were concerned. Similarly, from Titus II's perspective, ending the war after the Red Ring provided the best opportunity to rebuild for Round 2, versus the cost of waging a continued campaign with every legion at half strength or less.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:00 am

True, but their victory proves that the Empire did not have to sign the Concordat.

While I agree there was no way for the Emperor to know the Redguards would win. Both Sephiel and Snore bring up excellent points as well.

Southern Hammerfell is a wasteland now because of the war. Not only are vast tracks of land left even more inhospitable than they were before one can only imagine the amount of casualties the Redguards have faced, both civilian and military. While their culture has always been militaristic I have little doubt that the entire country is basically one giant army now.

As Sephiel said, the Empire has a duty to it's citizens, and Skyrim. The peace treaties only purpose is to allow the Empire and her citizens to recover. The Emperor didn't know that the Reguards would be able to fight the Thalmor off.

IF the Empire had stood by Hammerfell I believe they very well could have pushed the Thalmor back, possibly to Summerset Isles. It would have ravaged both Empire though. The cost would have far outweighed the gains, no doubt the Emperor felt the same.